16 replies to this topic

[Void Angel]

I'm currently engaged in a lively discussion with several players who hold that the new modules are not intended to help with ECM - despite the fact that the patch notes say they are. I'm also running into players who tell me that their personal testing indicates that the range modules are not in fact increasing the 200m lock-on distance to a shielded 'mech. Other testers report that the target decay modules have no effect on ECM - the instant a 'mech retreats to the ECM bubble, target lock is lost.

Could you give us a clear-cut explanation of whether these two modules are indeed operating as intended, for the record? I know at least three testers right now who prefer railing on about conspiracy theories to filling out a constructive bug report, so it might be helpful to correct the misinformation that's rolling around out here.

PS: Assuming that the patch notes are correct and range modules are intended to increase the lock-on range of ECM shielded 'mechs to greater than 200m, can you clarify whether this interaction is intended to be additive (1-[.75+.25]*800m) or multiplicative (.25*1.25*800m)? It's the difference between a trivial 50m increase and a decent 400m lock-on range - if these modules are aimed at helping "LRM boats still feeling the pain of ECM," the latter seems more reasonable.

Edited by Void Angel, 17 January 2013 - 03:18 PM.

[von Pilsner]

Ya, I thought it was odd the patch notes said:

Quote

We have added a few new Modules to boost your Target information that I am sure will be popular, Target Decay Rank 1 and 2, as well as Sensor Range Rank 2. A must for those LRM boats still feeling the pain from ECM.

When those modules do not seem to have any effect on ECM, don't know if the modules are wrong or if the person writing the notes got it wrong.

[Zero G BD]

on another thread today a dev said that he and one other guy are responsible for play balance in MWO. It is clear neither should have a job, or that they don't do their job.

The mechanics that are put into the game make it more broken or no better every time and the simple fixes are never tried. The whole point of beta is to try stuff. I think I need a job like theirs, sit around and play PS2 all day?

[Biglead]

Any word?

[Monky]

There is no possible way an increase in sensor range could do anything about ECM, as ECM is designed to block sensor locks in MWO. The only possible way around this would be if it also increases the 'range' that you can detect and lock an ECM mech (currently 200 meters). It is not stated whether or not it does that, so I would bank on it not doing that.

Edited by Monky, 17 January 2013 - 05:05 PM.

[Carl Wrede]

This would be good to get a dev answer on actually as it is a rather important question.

[Void Angel]

Monky, on 17 January 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

There is no possible way an increase in sensor range could do anything about ECM, as ECM is designed to block sensor locks in MWO. The only possible way around this would be if it also increases the 'range' that you can detect and lock an ECM mech (currently 200 meters). It is not stated whether or not it does that, so I would bank on it not doing that.

Actually, the currently released patch notes and the original explanation of ECM's function do say that the lock-on range is increased. This is what my formulae are about in my original post.

Many people seem to be confused by the commonly touted "200m" range. The number comes from this Command Chair post explaining ECM function. Note that the 200m is not listed as a hard value; the hard value is "1/4 normal sensor range," with 200m listed in relation to the normal 800m range specifically as a default. This means that increasing the range of your sensor suite (with the exception of the Beagle Active Probe, which is specifically singled out as being countered by ECM,) should indeed increase your lock-on range as explained by the Devs. This position isn't reasonably refutable unless the Devs clarify that their original explanation was incorrectly worded - or that the current design has moved on. However, the original explanation in the above link is still borne out by the wording of the recent patch notes, where the new modules are specifically mentioned as being "a must for those LRM boats still feeling the pain from ECM."

Edited by Void Angel, 17 January 2013 - 05:28 PM.

[Void Angel]

So, no loves?

[Inconspicuous]

Devs have anything to say on this one...?

[Skyfaller]

Void Angel, on 17 January 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

I'm currently engaged in a lively discussion with several players who hold that the new modules are not intended to help with ECM - despite the fact that the patch notes say they are. I'm also running into players who tell me that their personal testing indicates that the range modules are not in fact increasing the 200m lock-on distance to a shielded 'mech. Other testers report that the target decay modules have no effect on ECM - the instant a 'mech retreats to the ECM bubble, target lock is lost.

Could you give us a clear-cut explanation of whether these two modules are indeed operating as intended, for the record? I know at least three testers right now who prefer railing on about conspiracy theories to filling out a constructive bug report, so it might be helpful to correct the misinformation that's rolling around out here.

PS: Assuming that the patch notes are correct and range modules are intended to increase the lock-on range of ECM shielded 'mechs to greater than 200m, can you clarify whether this interaction is intended to be additive (1-[.75+.25]*800m) or multiplicative (.25*1.25*800m)? It's the difference between a trivial 50m increase and a decent 400m lock-on range - if these modules are aimed at helping "LRM boats still feeling the pain of ECM," the latter seems more reasonable.

Good god, why do people have reading comprehension issues in this day and age?

- New Pilot Module: Target Decay. Target Decay increases the time it takes to lose a target once line of sight is lost. Default time is 2 seconds.
- Rank 1: Increases target decay time to 2.75 seconds. Costs 5000 XP.
- Rank 2: Increases target decay time to 3.5 seconds. Costs 7500 XP.

----------- It only DELAYS the time it takes for the target to unlock/vanish when you lose line of sight with a target.

- Adding a new rank to the Sensor Range Pilot Module
- Rank 2: Increases the boost to sensor range from 15% to 25%. Costs 7500 XP.

---------- It increases the range of the sensor boost module. Sensor boost module is EXPLICITELY counteracted by ECM stealth bubble effect.


Nowhere... NOWHERE does it state anything about any of the above being a counter for ECM in any way or form. It only mentions:

"Target Decay Rank 1 and 2, as well as Sensor Range Rank 2. A must for those LRM boats still feeling the pain from ECM."

So, for LRM boats, if you bothered to read the actual patch notes and cogitate, means the LRM boats get to be able to lock onto targets NOT under ECM stealth bubble FARTHER and when the mech's lock gets 'cut' by ECM bubble it will have 1.5 or so more seconds of lock time so that any in-flight missiles will still home in.

The only real benefit to LRM boats comes from the target delay module when COMBINED with TAG.

TAG lock is lost 1 second after you 'miss' the mech with the TAG. This module will make the TAG lock remain for 1.5 seconds more and that is DAMN useful for when you're tagging targets that move rather quickly.

[King Arthur IV]

Skyfaller, on 19 January 2013 - 07:12 AM, said:

Good god, why do people have reading comprehension issues in this day and age?

- New Pilot Module: Target Decay. Target Decay increases the time it takes to lose a target once line of sight is lost. Default time is 2 seconds.
- Rank 1: Increases target decay time to 2.75 seconds. Costs 5000 XP.
- Rank 2: Increases target decay time to 3.5 seconds. Costs 7500 XP.

----------- It only DELAYS the time it takes for the target to unlock/vanish when you lose line of sight with a target.

- Adding a new rank to the Sensor Range Pilot Module
- Rank 2: Increases the boost to sensor range from 15% to 25%. Costs 7500 XP.

---------- It increases the range of the sensor boost module. Sensor boost module is EXPLICITELY counteracted by ECM stealth bubble effect.


Nowhere... NOWHERE does it state anything about any of the above being a counter for ECM in any way or form. It only mentions:

"Target Decay Rank 1 and 2, as well as Sensor Range Rank 2. A must for those LRM boats still feeling the pain from ECM."

So, for LRM boats, if you bothered to read the actual patch notes and cogitate, means the LRM boats get to be able to lock onto targets NOT under ECM stealth bubble FARTHER and when the mech's lock gets 'cut' by ECM bubble it will have 1.5 or so more seconds of lock time so that any in-flight missiles will still home in.

The only real benefit to LRM boats comes from the target delay module when COMBINED with TAG.

TAG lock is lost 1 second after you 'miss' the mech with the TAG. This module will make the TAG lock remain for 1.5 seconds more and that is DAMN useful for when you're tagging targets that move rather quickly.

oh really?! listen well sl ut, skyfaller ballin

[BigJim]

Void Angel, on 17 January 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

I'm currently engaged in a lively discussion with several players who hold that the new modules are not intended to help with ECM - despite the fact that the patch notes say they are.

The text makes a passing comment about how one new module will give a slight benefit to LRM boats, who incidentally have been given a disadvantage recently.

There is no explicit link made between the new modules and ECM, it's basic stuff.

[direpinnacle]

OK, I'm hoping an official PGI person makes some sort of comment, so I'd like to bump this.

Since I'm here, a minor rant about some things other people have posted:

BigJim, on 19 January 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

The text makes a passing comment about how one new module will give a slight benefit to LRM boats, who incidentally have been given a disadvantage recently.

There is no explicit link made between the new modules and ECM, it's basic stuff.

yeah, OK, no explicit link, but there is some connection. However, the module does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING when ECM is taken into account. See Here:

mwhighlander, on 15 January 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

Let me try to expand a bit more. There is a tiny window of opportunity with ECM mechs that you can lock on to them and fire guided missiles in teh 180-200m range exactly. Within that 180m range of an ECM mech on disrupt mode, you cannot gain a missile lock on anything, regardless of that mechs location.

BAP and the Sensor Module (Both 1 and 2) extend your range to which you can lock on to a mech. 800m is default. However, PGI has claimed in the patch notes those LRM (or streak users I suppose) suffering from ECM should equip these modules (sensor range and target decay) as helping combat against them in some nebulous way.

My theory was that it increased the range to which you can target a mech protected under a local ECM bubble, or that it increases that elusive 20m window between 180m and 200m in which you can actually achieve a lock to an ECM mech.

First I attempted to target an Atlas D-DC within that window. While I was still able to achieve some form of a lock in the 180-200m range, I still could not attain a lock oustide of 200m even with BAP + Sensor range 2.

My second theory I attempted was that Target Decay ment I could retain a lock to an non-ECM mech entering an ECM protective bubble for the extra 3.5 seconds (or x amount of time). As soon as I acquired lock, while I could keep their target info if they went behind terrain cover (which was nice) the second that locked-on mech step foot inside the bubble my missile lock was instantly lost.

I hope that clears up the post. Misinformation is dangerous, and its sad to see PGI is the source of it this time around.

In conclusion, ECM IS STILL BROKEN

So there is no effect from either new modules when ECM is involved. Zero. This makes the patch notes wrong, or at least misleading.

Skyfaller, on 19 January 2013 - 07:12 AM, said:

(quote truncated)

Nowhere... NOWHERE does it state anything about any of the above being a counter for ECM in any way or form. It only mentions:
...
So, for LRM boats, if you bothered to read the actual patch notes and cogitate, means the LRM boats get to be able to lock onto targets NOT under ECM stealth bubble FARTHER and when the mech's lock gets 'cut' by ECM bubble it will have 1.5 or so more seconds of lock time so that any in-flight missiles will still home in.
...

Yeah, this would be a fine way to interpret it, though what you suggest isn't happening. There is no 1.5 extra seconds. Again, they don't say this is a counter but they made a link between the two which just isn't there: this is either a mistake with the patch notes or a bug with the module implementation.

Finally, the original post referred to a 50m increase as trivial. While 400 would be nicer for LRM boats, it might be too much. 50 more meters against an ECM shielded Atlas would get an LRM boat 2-3 more shots standing still. In my 4xLRM15 stalker that would take off most of the front armor. A meduim or Fast heavy in an ECM bubble can currently charge an LRM boat without taking a hit. 50 more meters very well might mean that meduim would get crippled in the 1 or 2 Volleys it would take while closing the 250-180 gap. 50 extra meters would be increasing the gap to 3.5 times what it is now, and that would not be trivial for anyone using lock-on missiles

Alright, so this has been a quite rant-y post, and you can ignore it if you want, but I do hope the devs or community moderators take the time to clarify confusion caused by the patch notes.

[Roadkill]

Advanced Target Decay module only applies when line of sight is lost. It does not in any way counteract ECM. The description of the module is completely clear on the issue: "Increases the amount of time a BattleMech is trackable when it leaves line of sight to 3.5 seconds."

[Kristov Kerensky]

With the sensor range module, you can actually get a missile lock on ECM targets at 200-230m, it works, it has worked for a while now, no one really noticed because most people consider the sensor range module to be about as useful as BAP, meaning totally worthless. Always found that rather silly myself as BAP not only increases your sensor range, but also speeds up lock time and speeds up target information gathering, but I guess most people see no need for those silly things.

With the advanced sensor module you can actually get a missile lock on ECM targets at 200-250m, works just fine, and I've been called a hacker for nailing a Com 2D at that range with my LRMs. Silly little guy thought that by staying at 220-250m away he could be safe from my LRMs due to his ECM, and I was happy to show him the error of his plan. Amazing how quickly 3 LRM15s with Artemis tear apart a Com 2D

The delay module doesn't seem to function if ECM is involved, otherwise working as advertised and a great tool for anyone brawling in urban enviroments or heavy terrain where targets use the enviroment to break the sensor lock.

[direpinnacle]

OK, thank you Kristov. I'll try the Sensor range module now.

EDIT:
Sensor range works just as you say, and as it should. Quite useful, and I'm happy

I have to express my thanks again to Kristov, that was a nice, informative post in response to my rant; i admit to being a bit annoyed with the lack if information and a lot of mis-information posts when searching for information on the new modules on the forums. Thank you for making me feel good again about the forum community for this game.

Edited by direpinnacle, 22 January 2013 - 01:17 PM.

[Void Angel]

Skyfaller, on 19 January 2013 - 07:12 AM, said:

Good god, why do people have reading comprehension issues in this day and age?

- New Pilot Module: Target Decay. Target Decay increases the time it takes to lose a target once line of sight is lost. Default time is 2 seconds.
- Rank 1: Increases target decay time to 2.75 seconds. Costs 5000 XP.
- Rank 2: Increases target decay time to 3.5 seconds. Costs 7500 XP.

----------- It only DELAYS the time it takes for the target to unlock/vanish when you lose line of sight with a target.

- Adding a new rank to the Sensor Range Pilot Module
- Rank 2: Increases the boost to sensor range from 15% to 25%. Costs 7500 XP.

---------- It increases the range of the sensor boost module. Sensor boost module is EXPLICITELY counteracted by ECM stealth bubble effect.

Actually, as I've already quoted, range is explicitly NOT counteracted by ECM - instead, nearly the opposite is true - ECM reduces your sensor range to 1/4th of normal, with 200m specifically listed as a default, meaning that this number can be changed - in this instance by increasing the sensor range. In fact, this portion of my question was driven by faulty testing reports in one of the other threads I mentioned; Kristov, here (thanks, Kristov!) has set the record straight:

Kristov Kerensky, on 22 January 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:

With the advanced sensor module you can actually get a missile lock on ECM targets at 200-250m, works just fine, and I've been called a hacker for nailing a Com 2D at that range with my LRMs.

Skyfaller, on 19 January 2013 - 07:12 AM, said:

Nowhere... NOWHERE does it state anything about any of the above being a counter for ECM in any way or form. It only mentions:

"Target Decay Rank 1 and 2, as well as Sensor Range Rank 2. A must for those LRM boats still feeling the pain from ECM."

So, for LRM boats, if you bothered to read the actual patch notes and cogitate, means the LRM boats get to be able to lock onto targets NOT under ECM stealth bubble FARTHER and when the mech's lock gets 'cut' by ECM bubble it will have 1.5 or so more seconds of lock time so that any in-flight missiles will still home in.

Actually, what Niko Snow's post said was this:

Niko Snow said:

We have added a few new Modules to boost your Target information that I am sure will be popular, Target Decay Rank 1 and 2, as well as Sensor Range Rank 2. A must for those LRM boats still feeling the pain from ECM.

Apparently "Nowhere... NOWHERE" is right there. So quite aside from empirical testing, you were wrong from the beginning; you apparently spent more time looking up "cogitate" than you did reading the patch notes, or Command Chair posts - or this thread. So, you tell me: Why do you have reading comprehension issues in this day and age? If you're not going to contribute meaningfully to a discussion, please take your angry diatribes and go offend someone else.

At this point, we're only still wondering if target decay is supposed to help with ECM - according to the quote by Niko, it should - but testing reports (thanks, Kristov!) indicate that it is not.

Edited by Void Angel, 22 January 2013 - 06:07 PM.