18 replies to this topic

[Yanlowen Cage]

You see so many threads on OP. Streaks are OP. Lrms are OP. ECM is OP. Well I beg to deffer. What is truly OP is the build system in the game.
Example. Splat cat, streak cat, Ac20 cat, guass kitty, any over fast light mech, plus said mech with ecm. Stalker 5 srm6 laser build, 3 UAC5 phracts. And so on. The issue isn't the weapons and systems in the game. it's how they can be abused.
Example: a cata has to MG points which can be converted to ac/guass mounts. Really?
Now there are those in game, me included, who will OP a mech. Some to exploit and pad thier score and earns, others to counter said players.
Reaction from community. If someone points out that a player is using an OP mech the other player will usually reply, "no you just suck" or "quit crying". But you be damned if you Question thier honor. Honor is BS in this game. Players will OP everything and anything in this game to get an advantage. Then talk of thier honor. yeah right.
The fix? limit the mounts on mechs not only in number of slots but size of slots. Hence a cata woulkdn't be able to mount ac/20s or Gauss rifles. it was never intended to but commonly is becuase there is no slot size restriction. Stop allowing engine swaps, or atleast make it mucher harder to do. A commando running at 150 kph is a netcode nightmare. Even more so when it is ecm equipped. Now alot of players would complain and whine if you took away thier total freedom of customization. But allowing them total freedom as of thus far, (actaully not total, but very little restriction), has proven that given rein they will break, bend, and what else they can the system to please themselves with no thought to the game. As we are human and we live within our own skulls. (think about it) we are basically selfish. (as we view the world from our prespective.
I do believe that this arguements speaks for itself. But it may be too late to fix the system it's self without a total rebuild of the mech bay concept which would not only be difficult but met with lots of resistance by those that would rather complain about what weapon or equipment is OP, without addressing the problem which allows the abuse of the system.

Edited by Yanlowen Cage, 20 January 2013 - 09:31 PM.

[LethalRose]

Not every mech can be equal.
Not every weapon system can be equal.
There will be optimal and suboptimal builds.

Accept it and move on.

[Yanlowen Cage]

LethalRose, on 20 January 2013 - 09:31 PM, said:

Not every mech can be equal.
Not every weapon system can be equal.
There will be optimal and suboptimal builds.

Accept it and move on.

Accept it, I can. I have those OP mechs myself. To stay competitive. I am not stating that all mechs should be equal. I am saying that some mech by slot location and assignment can become even more optimal. For exp. why run anything light but a raven 4l with ecm? seriously? When you allow certain mechs to become that OP it shuts the door on others. Thus with your logic, once the most maxium build is found any other mechs in that class might as well be deleted from the game. I personally don't want to play in a game where the only mechs are ravens,cicadas,cata,phracts and atlasi's. If you can't see that point I am sorry.

[Lukoi Banacek]

LethalRose, on 20 January 2013 - 09:31 PM, said:

Not every mech can be equal.
Not every weapon system can be equal.
There will be optimal and suboptimal builds.

Accept it and move on.

Quoted for truth. If balance among the components is fairly maintained, it's natural to find the best components for a given playstyle and run with that....and simplicity (aka boating) more often defeats complexity when it comes to builds. Hopefully community warfare will help build a need for the less than optimal mechs...either through some sort of technical stuff or through tonnage/chassis limits in certain types of battles etc.

Yanlowen Cage, on 20 January 2013 - 09:45 PM, said:

Accept it, I can. I have those OP mechs myself. To stay competitive. I am not stating that all mechs should be equal. I am saying that some mech by slot location and assignment can become even more optimal. For exp. why run anything light but a raven 4l with ecm? seriously? When you allow certain mechs to become that OP it shuts the door on others. Thus with your logic, once the most maxium build is found any other mechs in that class might as well be deleted from the game. I personally don't want to play in a game where the only mechs are ravens,cicadas,cata,phracts and atlasi's. If you can't see that point I am sorry.

Your implication that no "non-optimal" builds are being played probably isn't true. I've driven nothing but Jenners for 3 days now...I see tons, TONS of non-optimal mechs and builds. In 8's, premades with 4's and during pure PUG matches. People find a use for the suboptimal all of the time.Because they find an effective role for it...hence my Jenner

[Cerlin]

The OP isnt wrong about min/maxing chassis being what makes people whine about op, but that is what happens when people want to win. Sure A centurion with an Ac10, lrm 10 and 2 medium lasers is cannon but its not optimal. People tend to find whats most optimal because then they win more often, and winning = fun for a lot of people.

[Doc Holliday]

I get your point, but you're not really correct. There are in fact certain systems in-game right now that are in and of themselves, too powerful. The two most drastic currently are ECM and SSRMs.

ECM is too powerful because it does way too much for the weight and slots it takes. It completely removes the mech from enemy radar at anything greater than a very short distance. It also makes the window enemies have to lock missiles extremely small. And it does this not only for the mech carrying the ECM, but also any nearby friendly mechs. Something this powerful should probably take at least two critical slots and five tons. For the current critcal slots and weight it takes, it should be similarly powerful to AMS. Is it? You tell me.

SSRMs are also too powerful because they do way too much for the weight and slots they take. They have excellent damage to weight, slot and heat ratio. They can lock on to become guaranteed hits (provided you're not blocked by ECM). And last but certainly not least, they cause the enemy mech to shake, making it very hard to aim and return fire. If you have three SSRMs at your disposal, you can keep up a well-timed non-stop barrage of shaking such that the enemy target has virtually no chance to fight back at all. Even two make it extremely difficult.

The combination of these is what makes the RVN-3L so overpowered. Other builds you mentioned (like the double AC-20 K2) aren't objectively overpowered, as they have severe weaknesses to go along with their strengths. The double AC-20 for example is extremely slow, and entirely dependent on those AC-20s to do much of anything. Those AC-20s happen to be torso-mounted, making the aiming range fairly limited. I have one and I run it on occasion, but it's by far not my most powerful build.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Doc Holliday, on 20 January 2013 - 10:10 PM, said:

The combination of these is what makes the RVN-3L so overpowered. Other builds you mentioned (like the double AC-20 K2) aren't objectively overpowered, as they have severe weaknesses to go along with their strengths. The double AC-20 for example is extremely slow, and entirely dependent on those AC-20s to do much of anything. Those AC-20s happen to be torso-mounted, making the aiming range fairly limited. I have one and I run it on occasion, but it's by far not my most powerful build.

If netcoding/lagshielding gets fixed and some sort of collision is brought back to game so lights cannot blithely run into assaults at 150kph and simply warp thru them with no damage to themselves, I think you'll see these two issues become much less troublesome and tbh I believe that's why PGI isn't addressing streaks and ecm much....they seem more concerned with netcode and game mechanics.

[Doc Holliday]

Lukoi, on 20 January 2013 - 10:15 PM, said:

If netcoding/lagshielding gets fixed and some sort of collision is brought back to game so lights cannot blithely run into assaults at 150kph and simply warp thru them with no damage to themselves, I think you'll see these two issues become much less troublesome and tbh I believe that's why PGI isn't addressing streaks and ecm much....they seem more concerned with netcode and game mechanics.

Those will help, but not all that much against a light mech packing ECM and SSRMs. You're still not going to hit them because you can't aim. Unless of course that mech pilot is stupid and firing his streaks in a group instead of chain-firing. And the only weapon that hits when you can't aim, is SSRMs... which are blocked by his ECM.

And sure, collision will stop light mechs from running through groups of enemy mechs at will. It still won't help you if you're even slightly away from the group. You'll be just as dead then as you are now. Even a half-decent light pilot doesn't need all that much room to avoid running into other mechs while circling a target.

Edited by Doc Holliday, 20 January 2013 - 10:33 PM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Doc Holliday, on 20 January 2013 - 10:30 PM, said:

Those will help, but not all that much against a light mech packing ECM and SSRMs. You're still not going to hit them because you can't aim. Unless of course that mech pilot is stupid and firing his streaks in a group instead of chain-firing. And the only weapon that hits when you can't aim, is SSRMs... which are blocked by his ECM.

And sure, collision will stop light mechs from running through groups of enemy mechs at will. It still won't help you if you're even slightly away from the group. You'll be just as dead then as you are now. Even a half-decent light pilot doesn't need all that much room to avoid running into other mechs while circling a target.

I think your premise is wrong....part of the reason people complain about lights is the lagshield due to latency/netcode....fix that and hitting them becomes much more viable...the lights are forced to be smarter in how they approach heavier mechs. Right now, they know they can simply run on in, circle strafe and keep assaults on virtual lockdown.....once they become easier to hit or at least take damage when they are hit, that won't be such a viable technique anymore. So, ECM won't prevent them being hit save by potentially ECM/Streaks....and when I run a 3L or Jenner-D, the bulk of my damage done to opponents isn't the two streak packs. Simply not the case. I use the lasers much more heavily due to range mostly.

Point being, once they aren't immune to damage from DF (or at least, less susceptible) ECM won't be the challenge you think it is. Hence PGI's apparent position.

[M0oP0o]

I am sorry, but unless I am not reading properly, this is another "MWO needs less customization" thread.

Look, as with most MW games a lot of the fun is in messing with the mech builds. MWO is already very light on things to do and has a hard time being much more then a combat grind. Please don't try and say the game will be "better" if we all used "canon" (or at least somewhat kneecapped builds). It will just be half the unfinished game it is now.

Also, unless I am crazy, I have yet to come across a "broken" mech build. I had a guass cat and raven in CB and even then still died regularly to better tactics and other builds. Now gauss anything is as fragile as a teapot.
SSRMs getting you down? here is an idea: don't get into range if its bigger then a light and if it is a light, then you need to have a talk with your team about how best to deal with pests (like use your own lights). Or even better, have an EMC mech around, therefore SSRMs are useless. Now there are balance issues (you would be insane not to notice) but nothing game breaking (EMC being close).

All in all this being a online game, are you honestly thinking people would not find a way to min/max?

Edited by M0oP0o, 20 January 2013 - 11:11 PM.

[Roadbuster]

Yanlowen Cage, on 20 January 2013 - 09:45 PM, said:

Accept it, I can. I have those OP mechs myself. To stay competitive.

First you say the cheese builds are OP and then you say you use them too. To stay competitive...really?
I agree that some of the builds can be a pain. But they usually come with restrictions.
AC20 and Gauss Cats have to slow down their mechs to equip the weapons and enough ammo. They also don't have any backup weapons most of the time.
SRM Cats are a bit of a problem because they can run very fast while having massive firepower at short range.
Light mechs at 150kph are hurting themself. It's hard to hit anything at these speeds and almost impossible to hit another light mech with the exception of SSRMs. But that's a netcode problem.

I had, and still have, some problems fighting with standard equipment. That means, no DHS, no Endo Steel, no XL Engine and no piloting skills. It takes a bit to power a mech up till it's competitive. But that doesn't involve any of these builds.
Piloting and tactic make up another big part of the game. You don't brawl it out with a AC20 or SRM6 Cat, you don't close in on a Gauss Cat without any cover, you don't try to outrun a light mech,...

[Biruke]

Using your brain is OP.

[GalaxyBluestar]

LethalRose, on 20 January 2013 - 09:31 PM, said:

Not every mech can be equal.
Not every weapon system can be equal.
There will be optimal and suboptimal builds.

Accept it and move on.

not every mech and or combination will be used
not half the content will be competative and viable
there will be only 20% of the game content deployed at this rate which makes a lackluster game

accept it, MWO will die with the formular one way of mech building.

[Yanlowen Cage]

Your implication that no "non-optimal" builds are being played probably isn't true. I've driven nothing but Jenners for 3 days now...I see tons, TONS of non-optimal mechs and builds. In 8's, premades with 4's and during pure PUG matches. People find a use for the suboptimal all of the time.Because they find an effective role for it...hence my Jenner

I was being sarcastic, but seriously. The next time you play count the number of uber-builds/exploit builds. keep track and you will notice that indeed people do play non optimal mechs. I have an awesome that I have masteed I love to play. But they are in the minority. In some games so badly that you won't see any mech on either team that is not non optimal.

Played a match recently that had a enemy team that consticted of 2 commandos,2 ravens, and 4 atlas. Guess what they were? com-2dx2/rav-4lx2/d-dcx4. Yes people do play non optimal, but normally only to get exp. to open amaster slot and such or becuase they are new and don't know yet.

[Apoc1138]

Doc Holliday, on 20 January 2013 - 10:30 PM, said:

Those will help, but not all that much against a light mech packing ECM and SSRMs. You're still not going to hit them because you can't aim. Unless of course that mech pilot is stupid and firing his streaks in a group instead of chain-firing. And the only weapon that hits when you can't aim, is SSRMs... which are blocked by his ECM.

And sure, collision will stop light mechs from running through groups of enemy mechs at will. It still won't help you if you're even slightly away from the group. You'll be just as dead then as you are now. Even a half-decent light pilot doesn't need all that much room to avoid running into other mechs while circling a target.

weird, because I can't recall being killed by SSRM's in recent memory, and I have no problems hitting and killing light mechs, in fact I've dropped SSRMs from all my builds and gone back to SRM6's as they outright do more damage and the shotgun effect actually makes it pretty easy to hit light mechs

@OP... there will always be flavour of the month builds, I even try some of them myself, however good players will always find what works best for them and often it won't be a flavour of the month build

Edited by Apoc1138, 21 January 2013 - 05:41 AM.

[Merrik Starchaser]

LethalRose, on 20 January 2013 - 09:31 PM, said:

Not every mech can be equal.
Not every weapon system can be equal.
There will be optimal and suboptimal builds.

Accept it and move on.

Which is as it should be, if every build were roughly equal what fun would there be in finding the good builds or learning to play them effectively. what would be the point of mech lab at all other than some flair.

Mech builds were never meant to be equal, that is why they have BV's

[Havyek]

'Mechs are OP.

Almost every time I'm killed in this game, it's from a 'Mech. Sometimes it's from a 'Mech using some type of weapons, sometimes it's from a 'Mech standing there and letting me shoot it until I overheat and explode. In either case they shouldn't be able to do this and therefor are OP.


Nerf 'Mechs.

[MustrumRidcully]

LethalRose, on 20 January 2013 - 09:31 PM, said:

Not every mech can be equal.
Not every weapon system can be equal.
There will be optimal and suboptimal builds.

Accept it and move on.

I am just fine with some builds being suboptimal.

I am not fine with any mech or with any weapon be suboptimal on its own. Each weapon and each mech must fulfill a role that is worthy to be filled and worth the investment it costs (not more, no less).

---

On a somewhat related load, it is actually possible for everything in a game to be OP.

Imagine there is a Super-PPC. It deals 1,000 damage per shot every 10 seconds.
But there is also a super Shield Generator. It negates all damage.
But there is also a super-EMP Missile. It disables the Super Shield Generator and the Super-PPC.

All 3 are OP, and a game with these 3 elements is terribly imbalanced and badly designed.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 21 January 2013 - 06:44 AM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

I do keep tracking of my games Yanlowen. Probably more so than most, as my clan tries to find what will work for us best in community warfare, but that's beside the point.

Secondly, someone keeps saying you won't hit lights even once netcode is fixed and collision reintroduced in some form, therefore lights with ECM/SSRM is overpowered. That's incorrect. I hit lights now with DF...on all weight classes. And frankly, no one here knows just how effective ECM/sSRM will remain once those two fixes are in place. It's all supposition and "sky is falling" type supposition at that.