41 replies to this topic

[Theobald Hauser]

Preamble:

First of all, I'm no natural english speaker, so, be kind.

Secondly, I'm not trying to restart from the beginning some debates that happened on this forum, so, there will be some ellipses. For example, I'm building on the postulate that ECM is not at the same time fun and balanced, but also that it's needed. I'm also totally fine with the idea that things NEED to be different from TT in some instances and probably better when closer in others.

On one hand, you can totally disagree with any postulate, but, as it's a thread about discussing suggestions, there's little use all things considered. It's not a poll (at this time anyway) so "that's totally bull****" won't serve any purpose, "I think that this thing needs tuning and that's why and how" and even "it's a really bad idea because..." are really appreciated. There will be some strange ideas, and I'm not adamant that they're all good/practical/feasible.

Also, they're edited in a "modular" fashion. Alternative, madder or just different options are sometimes mentioned. Those optional things are to be considered with and without.

Thanks.


Suggestion : Electronic Warfare

Base ideas :
- need to be some difference from TT, more realtime-gameplay oriented, but as rich
- take use from existing assets from the game as it is
- ECM is powerful. Variants of ECM chassis without ECM underpowered. Frequency of ECM variants far higher than non ECM ones.
- instead of being a "no choice" option, electronic warfare should also be a loadout choice, like any armaments and counters of the game

Axiom: Dilution : If an asset is too important, but you don't want to just erase it as a specific advantage, give a lesser version of it to the other actors.

Sources:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/ECM
http://www.sarna.net...rdian_ECM_Suite
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/ECCM

Core Suggestion :

Let there be an ECM Suite equipment as it actually is. (We'll call the original one ECM1 and the new one ECM2, for the explanation only)
By itself, ECM2 doesn't do anything. It's requiered to have access to any of the following.
Let there be a new subpanel in the Module panel, in the mechlab. Same interface.
All Electronic Warfare related options are now Modules too, EW Modules.
Suggestion list :
-> Electronic Countermeasures Stealth Module, that does divide the lock distance by 4, ignore BAP, and make enemy mechs disappear from sensors in a 180m radius around as ECM1 does
-> Electronic Countermeasures Jamming Module, that does the 180m no-C3 bubble and 180m no-radar-at-all radius
-> Electronic Countermeasures Disruption Module, longer targeting and info gathering, no NARC bubble, and no-lock bubble
-> Electronic Counter-Countermeasures Module, that does the Counter mode of ECM1, negating one ECM2 in a 180m radius. When ECCM is active, all other modules are disabled.


ECM variants (that are nowadays "ECM capable") are given 3 EW module slots.
Some other love-impaired variants are given 1 or 2 slots.
A new Master-level skill can be unlocked, that gives ONE additional EW slot.


Optional Idea A: (added effects)
-> Jamming Module also disrupts Artemis effects (as in TT)

Optional Idea B (new modules)
-> Electronic Countermeasures Ghost Module, that makes sensor ghosts appear, that can be targeted and give "pristine" datas of the ECM-equipped mech. LRMs *can* indirect fire at ghosts (and that's bad for them). Ghosts also appear on the sensor map. This one is from TT.
-> Electronic Countermeasures DataChecker, that allow to go through the Stealth module at long range like a standard ECM/ECCM duel. The idea behind this one is to allow some sort of "long distance electronic warfare", given it'll probably be bought by LRM's users - that can on the other hand be fooled by the Ghost module, thus creating some sort of triangular and/or complementary choices in EW.

Optional Idea C (like in Crazy, but I so love it)
there's no restriction that I'm aware of about ECM mechs in TT... what about...
All mechs starts with 1 EW module slot ?
You still need to carry an ECM Suite (Guardian, Clan, Angel when/if accessible) to use them.
The far end of the axiom's exploration. Ultimate Dilution.

If options B and/or C are chosen, ECM1 capable mechs can access 4 EW modules from the start.



Optional Idea D :
You can equip MORE ECM Suite than one. All ECM Suites add up when calculating ECM/ECCM duels.

Optional Idea D' :
You need one ECM Suite per module. Seems rather heavy in the end for ECM-loaded specialists...
Optional Idea D '' :
They still add up for ECM/ECCM duels ^^

(Point of interest: Things are probably to be about some "underpowered" variants, likely MASC for example, perhaps others, so balance between variants has to be WIP. )



Linked Suggestions (that are still to be considered even if the whole here up thing is dismissed):


-> TAG should allow the TAGger (and only himself, if under Jamming bubble) to lock on the target even if in Disrupt range. If you've got a laser designator, what's the point with being disrupted ? The whole idea is to rely on a direct link to lock, not another signal. You still have to sacrifice an energy hardpoint. A heavy deal in lots of builds.

-> NARCs should stay longer in the target. Even the whole game. They'll be disrupted a lot if the number of ECMs is higher (that said, nowadays, they're already disrupted all the time).

-> AMS should perhaps have a quicker target acquisition, to compensate for the renewing of Streaks usefulness.

-> BAP is specifically said to know WHEN it is disrupted, and from approximately where. Could it be implemented ? Some sort of greyed out bubble on the map/ even on the hud ? Really no pinpoint thingy, just a 300m blob or something. Would greatly enhance its usefulness.
Better, all your C3 linked teammates should see the blob. So even in PUG, the BAPper is a useful one.


Totally crazy one but I really, really love this last one:
-> Since BAP is said to allow to detect hidden mechs through terrain, could it be implemented ? If it is, I'm all excited about an old FX i've been unable to find a picture for, that was in the Battlezone remake of 1998: the SITE camera effect. When activated, you could see the lanscape around you (and the landscape only, not the units, even the hidden ones, and that's exactly the point), in a 200m bubble, entirely in wireframe. It was so cool.

Edited by Amarius, 01 February 2013 - 09:51 PM.

[Theobald Hauser]

Suggestion : Incremental Heat

Base ideas :
- some weapons are of little use at the moment
- take use from existing assets from the game as it is
- some added use, some drawbacks
- some originality ?
- in TT, machine guns have same dps than ac/2 against mechs, but a crappy range
- said range is an abstract from the fact that only short range power can do serious damage to battlemech armor, see GAU-8 real stats below. Even if absent from the game, anti-infantry bonus is for the rate of fire and the fact that you ignore the need to penetrate their armor to be effective.

Axiom: Specialization: When something is underused for inefficiency but you want them to be different, make them do something differently.

Sources:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Machine_gun
For comparison:
http://en.wikipedia....i/GAU-8_Avenger (half weight from IS MG, same stats than Clan MG)

Core Suggestion:

Machine gun are useless at the moment, their damage being near insignificant even when boating them.
Solutions are in the work, as it seems, with rumors and statements about critical seeking power.
Fact is, armor must be gone for this to be of any use. So, except to steal kills on near dead targets, usefulness will not improve. Furthermore, an MG ammo critical will do some 160 damages to the equipped mech - oneshoting him.
Simply put, let the range not to change, but significantly boost the weapon dps (by a magnitude of 3 or 5, even more if kept in mind that they had AC/2 dps in TT (that is, 4 in MWO, ten times more thant they have)).
On the other hand, they could be given a "Incremental Heat" trait. For each second of continuous fire or ten bullets fired, the heat generated by the weapon will become higher (+50% ?) , with no limit. The increment slowly drop down when the MG is not used for a little time (even depending on heat dissipation ?)
This way, a balance can be attained between risks and rewards, and the possibility to MG boat can be a real build for some mechs (mainly a Spider, Cicada, Dragon and Cataphract variants), needing to add heat sinks they don't need at the moment.
Short bursts are okay, leading to more hit & run tactics, heavy metal storm tactics are also possible, but need at the same time ammo and heat sinks.

Other applications for the core suggestion :

- Flamers :
Make them do increased heat damages as your own heat builds up by continuisly firing them. In extreme cases, the heat will detonate the target ammunitions. In regular cases, the target retaliation power is really dropping down, and it creates more teamplay. The incremental heat make you unable to permanently stunlock the target.

- Pulse lasers :
Why not make pulse weapons continuous fire but incremental heaters ? Some sort of ultra-laser ? You can chainfire them, but generate more and more heat doing so, or just "regular interval"-fire them, with nowadays heat.
Pulse-lasers will become this way some sort of "secondary specialized weapon", you don't really have any use to boat them (far too many heat, and they already chainfire alone), but they can make useful "take them, we'll see" weapons.
A cool secondary effect is to make them more common, and at the same time make them truly specific gameplay- and use-wise.
This way they will also make some "I'm big but I've only one or two weapons nevertheless" situations, with heavies or assaults boating heatsinks to do some heavy fire but with less weapons and hardpoints. Greater array of gameplay approaches is always fun.

Edited by Amarius, 01 February 2013 - 10:40 AM.

[Theobald Hauser]

Come oooon, 72 readers and not even a negative reaction ?

[Agent CraZy DiP]

TLDR - Happy?

[Regrets]

I agree with most of what you are saying. I think PGI is aware of most of these problems and will hopefully fix soon. It seems people want accurate variants at this time, I really think they should scrap the TT accurate variants and try to balance them. Currently some variants totally suck and there is no point to them.

[Theobald Hauser]

Agent CraZy DiP, on 24 January 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

TLDR - Happy?

*kiss* <3

Regrets, on 24 January 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

I agree with most of what you are saying. I think PGI is aware of most of these problems and will hopefully fix soon. It seems people want accurate variants at this time, I really think they should scrap the TT accurate variants and try to balance them. Currently some variants totally suck and there is no point to them.

Same, I don't think they aren't aware, and there's a good probability they have things up their sleeves. I'm typing some ideas because, well, it can't hurt, I've plenty of time, and I need some dead times between long mechgaming shifts. ^^
I'm already behind my alloted mechbays purchases for this month. I need a fix !
No !
I can stop whenever I want ! I'm not sick !
Don't judge me !

Edited by Amarius, 24 January 2013 - 05:12 PM.

[Lytharan]

I agree with the ECM part, good idea, ECM realy need to be balanced. They are not too powerful, but they make obsolet some model of mech.

Machine gun and flamers must be improved. Currently they are almost useless. No needs to modify the other weapons for the moment.

[Theobald Hauser]

Thanks for the advice. The pulse-thing is totally optional, yeah. But I loved the idea of a laser minigun.

[Codejack]

My issue at the moment is that, given the track record of the last 2 months, I no longer trust PGI to effectively implement solutions to the current problems.

For example, ECM is broken. Not only broken, but the entire game is broken because of ECM. It is not fun. Argue all you want about counters and still being able to use missiles, whatever; the fact is that it effectively removed the penalty for carrying only short-range weapons.

This would have had a radical effect on a system that was previously well-balanced, which this was not. Just food for thought: Imagine a new hero mech, a heavy with 5 missile hardpoints, 1 energy hardpoint, and ECM. Now tell me that it wouldn't make PGI a fortune.


Now, ideally, ECM should:

-Decrease detection range by 50% (400m instead of 200m)
-Increase lock-on time by 100%, but not prevent locks at any range
-Counter the bonuses provided by NARC, Artemis and BAP inside the bubble

BAP should:

-Increase detection range by 25% (1000m or 600m against ECM)
-Everything else it currently does

and if you must nerf streaks, make them reacquire lock after each shot.

The problem with making EW both powerful and module based is that it gives WAY too much of an advantage to veteran players. Newbies would be nothing more than walking targets.

[Theobald Hauser]

I see your points.
I still have faith in PGI. ^^

- Concerning range detections, I'm working on something too, that took inspiration from Carrioncrows' idea of M-Sig (a standard signature gameplay in fact), that modify detection range along some factors including heat, speed and level of activity. And ECM, of course.

- BAP already does that, as far as I understood it. The only thing bap-related not working is the through-cover thing. And the 360° radius, I think. I'm not sure about this one.

- I do have some missiles "master plan" (nothing revolutionary, but I do like some MW:LL missiles behaviors, and I'm going through every warhead that could be to make all things concordant first) that includes retargeting after each streak salvo, but not so strongly for game balance than for gameplay fun and activity (it gives something to do to Streakers)
I came accross that relocking thing some days ago, didn't remind it till then.

- I thought of EW modules being modules but no with actual module prices in C-bills and GXP (and even then, you only by them once for all your mechs); Something more of the 200k to 500k range, and 5k GXP range. So that you have to do something at least.
Newbies aren't newbies for long, and even then, they do NOT have ECM mechs in trial. Well, except if my idea is taken. So they have ECM since trial, for free, even if broke.
I didn't include prices because that would be PGI's decision, and they have numbers I don't.

- EW is not more powerful at all, in facts, it's more easily countered. So the "dilution" concept.
Only-1-ECM-module mechs will take ECCM or some ECM targeted on their build.
The ECM-heavy mechs will do more things, but not stronger things at all.
The game balance towards ECM-oriented mechs still would be.

Thanks for your thoughts ! I had some precisions to make as it seems !

Edited by Amarius, 26 January 2013 - 06:01 PM.

[Regrets]

Hit box is definitely a change in the right direction. Be patient...

[Theobald Hauser]

What is it about hitboxes ? Have I missed something important ?

I am patient, and I'm okay with weapons right now (except MGs, Flamers and somewhat pulse tastelessness), but as SRMs have at this time actually MRM gameplay, it will change at another time in the future.

[Theobald Hauser]

OP EDIT: Some spelling changes.

Hey, 239 hits, still so many TLDR chronic repellant syndrome ?

Edited by Amarius, 01 February 2013 - 10:44 AM.

[Solis Obscuri]

I find it fascinating that so many people think we have C3i when we clearly don't.

[Theobald Hauser]

Maybe, but it doesn't change anything about the suggestion. There, I changed two words, and it's miraculously exactly the same thing.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/C3
Anything to say actually about the suggestion ?

[Antarius]

to your first post:

I would prefere to nerf the ECM a bit, instead of giving other kinds out to the masses, especially with module combination... moduls should be additions not a special-equipment-version.

TAG, BAP, AMS, i agree.
NARC
should get even more power, at the moment at loose completly in compare with TAG, with the same benefit. In TT it gave a bonus to SRMs too. Maybe let SRMs drive slowy in the direction of the next NARC in 270m. (better, if you can disable this for your SRMs, if you want the rocket to get there where you want).


2nd post:
MGs: not a bad idea, but would make it simpler, MG with higher damage but have a overheatbar, insteadt of the cooldown bar, if it is full, you have to wait a real long period (5-10sec) to let it cool down. If you manage to stay allways in mid-heat-section nothing happens, but you need to do bursts. MGs should make heat in my opinion, sry there i wanna stay with lore. (would mess up some standart builds)

Flamer: i dont know, could be great, could be worse than now, cant imagene it right.

Pulse: not a bad idea, can be problematic to balance, but nice.

[Theobald Hauser]

Antarius, on 02 February 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

to your first post:

I would prefere to nerf the ECM a bit, instead of giving other kinds out to the masses, especially with module combination... moduls should be additions not a special-equipment-version.

Huuu, what ?
Maybe I don't understand what you meant but there is no "other version", everybody has the same one. That does nothing, just activate your EW Modules. EW Modules are what your ECM can do. They follow the "let some advanced things that equipment can do be engame optional modules" rule that is already in the game (the actual Modules). 360° targeting is for example a BAP thing, by TT rules.

So they are "additions" and not an "equipment-version". That's where I'm not sure what you meant.

Quote

TAG, BAP, AMS, i agree.
NARC
should get even more power, at the moment at loose completly in compare with TAG, with the same benefit. In TT it gave a bonus to SRMs too. Maybe let SRMs drive slowy in the direction of the next NARC in 270m. (better, if you can disable this for your SRMs, if you want the rocket to get there where you want).

Well, according to mwowiki (http://mwowiki.org/wiki/Narc), NARC should work indirectly (it seems it's not really working right now) and give a bigger bonus than TAG on accuracy (50%, as much as Artemis, that seems to be working right now). That ADDS to the TAG one. TAGNARCed targets take everything right in the CT, even from indirect fire.
Narc doesn't work with Artemis, TAG is said to not work, but practice seems to contradict this statement, so I'm not sure.

Quote

2nd post:
MGs: not a bad idea, but would make it simpler, MG with higher damage but have a overheatbar, insteadt of the cooldown bar, if it is full, you have to wait a real long period (5-10sec) to let it cool down. If you manage to stay allways in mid-heat-section nothing happens, but you need to do bursts. MGs should make heat in my opinion, sry there i wanna stay with lore. (would mess up some standart builds)

Their own heatbar, you mean ?

Quote

Flamer: i dont know, could be great, could be worse than now, cant imagene it right.

Pulse: not a bad idea, can be problematic to balance, but nice.

Pulse has really little chances to change, but it didn't cost anything to suggest. ^^

[DocBach]

Amarius, on 02 February 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

Huuu, what ?
Maybe I don't understand what you meant but there is no "other version", everybody has the same one. That does nothing, just activate your EW Modules. EW Modules are what your ECM can do. They follow the "let some advanced things that equipment can do be engame optional modules" rule that is already in the game (the actual Modules). 360° targeting is for example a BAP thing, by TT rules.

So they are "additions" and not an "equipment-version". That's where I'm not sure what you meant.

If everything else in electronic warfare requires modules to be used, like Beagle (360 targeting, most of the sensor) or Narc (should protect against sensor decay, another module), why is ECM completely self sufficient without modules? Cleaving functions from ECM and making them modules would be a good start in balancing stuff out.

[Theobald Hauser]

Huh, have you read before posting ? Given what you're quoting, you have missed it.
It's exactly the whole wall of text POINT.


And BAP has increased sensor range in its abilities. The module one is a second one.

[DocBach]

I was posting in agreement of the wall of text.