64 replies to this topic

[StalaggtIKE]

Kousagi, on 22 January 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

Thing is ECM really does not do that much for its weight. Though If ya want to compare it, C3i is free of charge for us, so....and BAP has the same amount of benefits, just everyone found them moot cause they didn't do anything. Only mech to use the BAP to any effect was the Streak cat.

Are you joking? I am going to assume you just do not know any better. I will list everything ECM and BAP does, so you compare the two. ECM provides bonuses for his allies and negatives for enemies:
ECM Benefits

• Provides stealth for allies; enemy must be within 200m (instead of 800m) to detect you
  
• 2x as long for enemy to get a missile lock on you (when within 200m, but outside 180m)
  
• Enemy's BAP is neutralized as long as target is within bubble
  
• Enemy's NARC is neutralized as long as target is within bubble
  
• Enemy's Artemis is neutralized as long as target is within bubble
  
• Enemies lose location of his allies, when within 180m of ECM (unless he has direct los)
  
• Enemies can not share targeting data, when within 180m of ECM
  
• Enemies can not achieve a missile lock at all, when within 180m of ECM
  
• Enemy's TAG is neutralized, when within 180m of ECM
  
• Can be toggled to ECCM mode to neutralized one of the closes enemy ECM within 180m

BAP Benefits

• 25% increased sensor range
  
• 25% decreased target level acquisition time
  
• allows targeting of unpowered 'Mechs within 120m

Obviously there is a huge difference between the two. If you don't believe me I left you links for you to read up on the subject.

Sources: ECM, BAP

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Then last bit of ECM being the allow/deny of Streaks/LRM's. This is the only point anyone can really argue over being OP. Which in itself is not OP, but it allows the use of OP weapons to the side that has more ECM. Which indirectly makes it powerful.

This is a compound problem. You are correct, the team with the most ECM has access to the OP weapons. Either way it is a problem and ECM is attributing to it.

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Ya know that whole calling letter thing, Never NEVER seen it happen in a pug match, ever. Never done it in a pre-made either. Heck, I played in closed beta, and never knew there was a letter there till a month or so in to open beta. Never needed it, so never bothered to find it.

No offense but that's your failure. How did you not see that and take advantage of it? Here is a tool that has been available since, at the very least, MW2 and you're not using it. Doesn't means others didn't find it beneficial. Of course there are other means of identifying a target, but you can't honestly tell me there is no benefit to identifying an enemy by a simple call letter. Which is faster typed or spoken? Focus fire on Beta. ~OR~ Focus fire on the Catapult in B6.

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I think ECM brought tactical play back to MWO, as it was very much lacking before. Though Everyone crys imbalanced but they can't give a solid reason why it is. Only thing that could be seen as Imbalanced, is once again the allow/deny of OP weapons.

And I say it made tactical play worse. Some of us enjoyed moving from cover to cover to avoid being detected. Or staggering AMS to neutralize LRM fire. Using paperdoll to quickly core our opponent. Or using any other light mech besides RVN-3L.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 22 January 2013 - 01:29 PM.

[Kousagi]

StalaggtIKE, on 22 January 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

Are you joking? I am going to assume you just do not know any better. I will list everything ECM and BAP does, so you compare the two. ECM provides bonuses for his allies and negatives for enemies:
ECM Benefits

• Provides stealth for allies; enemy must be within 200m (instead of 800m) to detect you
  
• 2x as long for enemy to get a missile lock on you (when within 200m, but outside 180m)
  
• Enemy's BAP is neutralized as long as target is within bubble
  
• Enemy's NARC is neutralized as long as target is within bubble
  
• Enemy's Artemis is neutralized as long as target is within bubble
  
• Enemies lose location of his allies, when within 180m of ECM (unless he has direct los)
  
• Enemies can not share targeting data, when within 180m of ECM
  
• Enemies can not achieve a missile lock at all, when within 180m of ECM
  
• Enemy's TAG is neutralized, when within 180m of ECM
  
• Can be toggled to ECCM mode to neutralized one of the closes enemy ECM within 180m

The detection range to all allies is covered in 1 effect of, detection range... not that big of a deal. The 2x lock time is a bit off, its vs any hidden mech, kinda covered under LRM/Streak counter.... and good job going to a wiki for something thats on the forums already. BAP/NARC not effecting ECM is not a feature of ECM, its just that those systems not effect it... what your saying is like its a feature of a PPC to not be effected by ECM... The losing allies/no data sharing is covered under the C3 network being cut, since both of those are given via C3. Missile locks being removed is covered under the missile one, so it is its own area. The Tag being nulled is covered under the data sharing, since the Tag itself is not being countered by ECM, it is the data sharing part of tag that is being countered inside the 180m. ECCM is its own as well, but its only effect is vs other ECM. So in the end, its 4 vs 3, but the importance of them is different.

StalaggtIKE, on 22 January 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

No offense but that's your failure. How did you not see that and take advantage of it? Here is a tool that has been available since, at the very least, MW2 and you're not using it. Doesn't means others didn't find it beneficial. Of course there are other means of identifying a target, but you can't honestly tell me there is no benefit to identifying an enemy by a simple call letter. Which is faster typed or spoken? Focus fire on Beta. ~OR~ Focus fire on the Catapult in B6.

No offense taken, though you need to read a bit more what I typed. I said I never needed it, so I never bothered looking for it. The group I run with does not even use it, cause we don't need it. All we do is call out builds, and give general info through out the fight. This is cause we all know what to do generally through out the fight. No targets need to be called cause we are all already focusing what needs to die first. Its only in special cases where instructions are given out. Even in the rare case that a target is called, we just say, " kill the atlas" and even if theres 3 atlas right there, we know which needs to die.

Edited by Kousagi, 22 January 2013 - 01:57 PM.

[Odanan]

A list of suggestions to balance the ECM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Kousagi, on 22 January 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

The detection range to all allies is covered in 1 effect of, detection range... not that big of a deal.

Lol, not a big deal? Since this apparently went right over your head, here's a picture for you:

Mech A has no ECM while Mech B has ECM. You know the little red arrow that pops up over an enemy's head? That's spotting and the game does it for you whenever an enemy is in your los. Mech A is spotted from Mech B from 800m, while Mech A will not spot Mech B until within 200m. Sure thermals can help, but you're lying if you're saying that is not an advantage.

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and good job going to a wiki for something thats on the forums already.

Quit your whining, it's the exact same thing. In fact I believe one of the mods from here posted it there.

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BAP/NARC not effecting ECM is not a feature of ECM, its just that those systems not effect it...

No you read that backwards. ECM gets rid of the bonuses provided by BAP and NARC. I also forgot another one that was not posted on the wiki, ECM also beats the modules (target delay and range increase).

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No offense taken, though you need to read a bit more what I typed. I said I never needed it, so I never bothered looking for it.

I read what you wrote and thought... BS.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 22 January 2013 - 02:17 PM.

[Kousagi]

StalaggtIKE, on 22 January 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

Lol, not a big deal? Since this apparently went right over your head, here's a picture for you:

Mech A has no ECM while Mech B has ECM. You know the little red arrow that pops up over an enemy's head? That's spotting and the game does it for you whenever an enemy is in your los. Mech A is spotted from Mech B from 800m, while Mech A will not spot Mech B until within 200m. Sure thermals can help, but you're lying if you're saying that is not an advantage.


Quit your whining, it's the exact same thing. In fact I believe one of the mods from here posted it there.


No you read that backwards. ECM gets rid of the bonuses provided by BAP and NARC. I also forgot another one that was not posted on the wiki, ECM also beats the modules (target delay and range increase).


I read what you wrote and thought... BS.

Oh no, what ever will I do without a red box to hold my hand and say " this is a bad guy".... really? The whole detection range thing is not that big of a deal. Stick next to friendly mechs and use thermal to ID targets far away.

Also, not whining, just pointing out that there was a better source... strait from the devs. Just saying...Though you are welcome to take it how ever you like.

This may be a Semantics problem. I see it as ECM gives you 200m detection radius period. Which inadvertently kills any bonus vs it. You view it the other way around. Though both points are moot, since both BAP and NARC were 100% useless before ECM ever came out anyhow. Well, BAP a little less since Streak cats got one use of out it, being able to target shutdown mechs.

Though its fine if you think its BS that my group and I don't need the letter codes. Its just how we work, and its a way of fighting I'm use to. Always get in with groups that are leaderless. Things just work better that way, well that is so long as everyone in the group has the same skill to be on the same page without words.

Though on the same note as that, I've never seen the Letter system used by pugs ever.. No ones called targets via them in all the games I've played. Now I'm sure there might be a group(s) out there that trys to use them with the pugs, but just pugs will not bother with it. So if the letter calling is something that only groups take advantage of, how will pugs losing it change anything? It would be something that only changes how groups work.

Edited by Kousagi, 22 January 2013 - 02:56 PM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Kousagi, on 22 January 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

Oh no, what ever will I do without a red box to hold my hand and say " this is a bad guy".... really? The whole detection range thing is not that big of a deal. Stick next to friendly mechs and use thermal to ID targets far away.

Also, not whining, just pointing out that there was a better source... strait from the devs. Just saying...Though you are welcome to take it how ever you like.

This may be a Semantics problem. I see it as ECM gives you 200m detection radius period. Which inadvertently kills any bonus vs it. You view it the other way around. Though both points are moot, since both BAP and NARC were 100% useless before ECM ever came out anyhow. Well, BAP a little less since Streak cats got one use of out it, being able to target shutdown mechs.

Though its fine if you think its BS that my group and I don't need the letter codes. Its just how we work, and its a way of fighting I'm use to. Always get in with groups that are leaderless. Things just work better that way, well that is so long as everyone in the group has the same skill to be on the same page without words.

Though on the same note as that, I've never seen the Letter system used by pugs ever.. No ones called targets via them in all the games I've played. Now I'm sure there might be a group(s) out there that trys to use them with the pugs, but just pugs will not bother with it. So if the letter calling is something that only groups take advantage of, how will pugs losing it change anything? It would be something that only changes how groups work.

And yet you miss the biggest issue of all. The ECM mech still get's his little red box from 800m. Plus call letters and BAP bonus,.... and NARC bonus,.... and Streaks,.... and LRM,.... and full use of radar. And though you and your league of ninjas , do not need it, it sure gives you an edge. The biggest issue with ECM is not the fact it takes things away, but the fact it allows the one group to play by a different set of rules.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 22 January 2013 - 03:08 PM.

[Kousagi]

StalaggtIKE, on 22 January 2013 - 03:05 PM, said:

The biggest issue with ECM is not the fact it takes things away, but the fact it allows the one group to play by a different set of rules.

This is a logical argument, but also one thats hard to pin down. As its purely subjective based on point of view. How much of what is too strong, what is too weak, and what can be done to balance it. Which I think is the problem the devs were dealing with and the reason why theres not been too much movement on the subject, since they need data. Though they have said there is minor tweaks on the way, and other things to help counter ECM.

[Valcoer]

I dont think the options in the poll are trully representative of the problems with ecm and therefore the poll itself is an invalid tool and will not do anything to help the situation
thank you.

[StalaggtIKE]

Kousagi, on 22 January 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

This is a logical argument, but also one thats hard to pin down. As its purely subjective based on point of view. How much of what is too strong, what is too weak, and what can be done to balance it. Which I think is the problem the devs were dealing with and the reason why theres not been too much movement on the subject, since they need data. Though they have said there is minor tweaks on the way, and other things to help counter ECM.

Everything in this game has pros and cons. Name one of ECM's weaknesses?

[Saxophonist]

Lights ad streaks aren't the problem; the really only do very little damage. The real problem is ECM and netcode. ECM shouldn't do all the things it does now, and lights will be very easy to kill if the netcode is fixed. Streaks are just fine.

[Voivode]

ECM is too good because one can cloak the whole team. Limit it to yourself and the closest teammate, which allows light mechs to enjoy the benefits (which I agree they should have) while not making it so a team with one or two ECMs has a ridiculous advantage over a team with none. This will make LRMs more useful again.

Or, if that is a bit much, maybe just have the ECM decrease the time it takes teammates to lose sensor lock when they are no longer in LOS. That way the targeting module that does the opposite acts as a counterweight and gives the game better balance.

I also wouldn't mind seeing the NARC beacon disable a mech's ECM for a set period (say, 10sec?). That may be more useful against the Atlas D-DC variant, but it is something to make narc useful again.

[Eddrick]

#5 ECM by itself isn't much of a problem. The problem is mostly Netcode. ECM just adds to the problem.

[XR17]

Valcoer, on 22 January 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

I dont think the options in the poll are trully representative of the problems with ecm and therefore the poll itself is an invalid tool and will not do anything to help the situation
thank you.

Please elaborate. I saw a lot of 3L hate and not for Atlas and Commando, so I separate what makes the raven 3l: a light mech, with ECM and streaks. Therefore I questioned myself about what made them so annoying in the match. I believed It was the netcode and that ECM disabled a good tool for getting rid for them (I don't think ECM is bad by itself, and I get a lot of fun lasering atlas to death), but then I realised that maybe it was something else, so I made a poll.

If I am mistaken, please, give me insight about what is the problems with ECM are in your perspective.

[Kousagi]

StalaggtIKE, on 22 January 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:

Everything in this game has pros and cons. Name one of ECM's weaknesses?

Flawed argument and a subjective one at that but i'll play. One of ECM's weaknesses is that when flipped to ECCM mode you lose all of ECM's effects.

@ saxophonist, So you say streaks are weak and ECM is the problem? Hmmm then I wonder why Streakcats became so very popular before ECM came out. Streaks have not been nerfed at all since then either. So they are still in the same state as when streak cats became popular, and I can even bet that if ECM was removed right now there would be about 2 streak cats per side in every game shortly after the patch, like it was before ECM came.

[Iwaslost]

Codejack, on 21 January 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:

Assuming no change would be made to ECM ever, I don't care because I won't be playing.

Good we are happy to have you leave.

[Adrius ADI Manthays]

Lyrik, on 22 January 2013 - 04:52 AM, said:

Biased poll is biased. Lights, streaks and ECM are more or less fine. Combined with "lagshielding" they are OP.

Fix the netcode and bring back colliding. That will result in lots of dead ECM/Streak Ravens and Commandos. Ok, we will have more whines about how useless lights are now but you can't have everything :-P

yep after netcode fixing we can see if the lightscouts are op or not. i see and hit them but with the lagshield he takes not damage. emc is more a tactical feature, but the lightscouts need them. i have no problem with emc. we have ballistic weapons to manage this. technical bugs in MWO make kind of things OP! i think when the netcode and eu server are done. and you can hit and make big damage on the lightscouts he stay more away and do the scout job. at time without fix he are more special class of assault mechs at speed.

but of course we need maybe emc balance tweaks.

Edited by Adrak Manta, 22 January 2013 - 05:47 PM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Kousagi, on 22 January 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

Flawed argument and a subjective one at that but i'll play. One of ECM's weaknesses is that when flipped to ECCM mode you lose all of ECM's effects.

What's subjective about the question? The only thing flawed was your answer.
*snicker, snicker* You know what's the weakness of a PPC? It does not fire if you don't pull the trigger.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 22 January 2013 - 06:08 PM.

[Kousagi]

StalaggtIKE, on 22 January 2013 - 05:59 PM, said:

What's subjective about the question? The only thing flawed was your answer.
*snicker, snicker* You know what's the weakness of a PPC? It does not fire if you don't pull the trigger.

Its subjective because no matter what I said you would have posted what you just did, cause in your mind ECM has no weakness, Otherwise you would not have stated the question the way you did. Now, What we have in MWO is the guardian ECM, correct?... Well some of its weakness is short range, plus it can only preform 1 mode at any time. Compare this to TT's Angel ECM which can preform 2 modes, either stacked or different ones at the same time. If we are talking about a pure MWO standpoint without comparing anything to TT, The ECM's main weakness is its short range.

Though you just showed how brilliant you were with that retort as well.... Please at least put some effort in to your insults. You're making this pretty boring...

[StalaggtIKE]

Kousagi, on 22 January 2013 - 07:14 PM, said:

Its subjective because no matter what I said you would have posted what you just did, cause in your mind ECM has no weakness, Otherwise you would not have stated the question the way you did. Now, What we have in MWO is the guardian ECM, correct?... Well some of its weakness is short range, plus it can only preform 1 mode at any time. Compare this to TT's Angel ECM which can preform 2 modes, either stacked or different ones at the same time. If we are talking about a pure MWO standpoint without comparing anything to TT, The ECM's main weakness is its short range.

Why compare it to TT? You should be comparing it to the tools within MWO. In which it blows everything else away. No, ECM weakness is not its short range. Stealth, ECM's greatest asset, has no max range. If all ECM effects stayed within its 180m range I would be ecstatic.

So for a weakness you chose, one mode at a time...., boo hoo. I actually use ECCM mode to sneak up on people. I consider it a plus! A better example of a weakness would be the fact ECCM can only counter one ECM at a time. Which ironically makes ECM better, as it will rarely be countered.

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Though you just showed how brilliant you were with that retort as well.... Please at least put some effort in to your insults. You're making this pretty boring...

Yikes you call that an insult? Don't get all emotional on me; that's weird. And how are you bored? I provided a picture, no, two pictures. I can now see why you are pro-ECM, you are in need of that instant gratification. LRM slowed games down too much. Now we can just march straight up to the enemy and brawl. So what's your poison? Gausscat? SRM boat, laser boat? Dual AC20? RVN-3L or D-DC? That's pretty much all you see on batlefield now. Yay, for lack of diversity!

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 22 January 2013 - 07:57 PM.

[Dustdog]

• Provides stealth for allies; enemy must be within 200m (instead of 800m) to detect you

Thats the real problem ,i think .
That makes no sense - when you see a taget with thermal vision , why dont you have a red mark above it ?
Actually i am forced to play (about 50%of the time ) with thermal - it makes no fun at all.