62 replies to this topic

[Calimaw]

The Spider could be a lot of fun if the maps ressembled more of what MW3 had.
If you were lucky enough to have played MW3 you'd know that there are tunnels / complexes inside of mountains, large building to perch on, and of course a larger landscape.

Currently the maps are very congested, and while I love seeing an enemy spider with my COM-2D because it's a fun 'clean-up' for me, I think the Spider is now the runt of the light 'mechs, and not the Commando.

I'm sure a Spider feels the same thing when he sees a Commando that a Commando does when he sees a Raven 3L.

If maps were focused on they could change a lot, weapon balances, speed balances, agility / mobility tweaks would be more clear in a different environment.

What I believe is that the current maps are as they are is because the developers want to keep the action going, and avoid long drawn out matches because of large distances between potential confrontations. While this does keep a match going as far as action, it does render the role of scouting nearly useless, and at best momentarily useful in determining which direction to travel for the next ~800 meters.

A lot of issues could be solved with larger maps, and certainly more apparent.

That's my 2¢

[Sable Dove]

Calimaw, on 23 January 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

I'm sure a Spider feels the same thing when he sees a Commando that a Commando does when he sees a Raven 3L.

I think you mean "I'm sure a Spider feels the same thing when he sees any mech in the game that a Commando does when he sees a Raven 3L."

[Febrosian R Gillingham]

Really we're just a few small tweaks away from having Spiders be incredibly useful. Basically everything Wrenchfarm said, but the changes don't even need to be very big.

1. Add in terrain that can't just be walked over, not just in new maps to come out but change some of the existing ones as well. River City can actually be great for Spiders since there are so many places to jump onto to avoid other mechs - jumping from in the river onto land near the lower city base, that whole block in the water that can only be accessed from the two ramps, as well as the spire of that block that can only be accessed by jumpjets. Change a few of the smooth hills/craters in Caustic and Forest Colony to be cliffs instead, and now you can actually escape streaks or mount more effective hit and run attacks using jumpjets.

2. Give jumpjets directional control, or at least faster turning and liftoff. They should be adding mobility and maneuverability, not just a way to slowly get up a building/cliff. Jump turns and jump strafing are great and all, but are hardly effective for the 3-6 tons jets take up.

3. THEN if they still need it, deal with streaks. Damage and cooldown seem fine really, just decrease the amount of time and distance your reticle can be from the target before losing target lock. Don't just nerf damage/cooldown, as that nerfs other mechs' ability to fight lights and still doesn't address the fact that streaks are way too easy to use. This will also be more acceptable given the recent and upcoming netcode improvements (haven't tried the patch myself much though).

4. Give the 5V something to make it less useless, maybe even just move the laser hardpoints into the arms. Really annoying being on a building/flying above an enemy mech and not even being able to fire at it or tag it. The 5K will be better when the mg tweaks come through, been much more successful in that mech than the 5V.

These few small tweaks would be a good step forward, would hardly break the game, and could even be done piecemeal over a string of patches to determine the effect on balance. Baby steps are the way to go.

Edited by Febrosian R Gillingham, 23 January 2013 - 07:25 PM.

[Calimaw]

Sable Dove, on 23 January 2013 - 07:06 PM, said:

I think you mean "I'm sure a Spider feels the same thing when he sees any mech in the game that a Commando does when he sees a Raven 3L."

Except other Spiders

It's not AS dramatic as you put it, but only due to the fact a Spider doesnt feel overwhelmed when they see a Spider. heh

[Solis Obscuri]

I think there's also a fair argument that appreciation of the Spider has increased as people have learned how to pilot it better, much as with the TF2 Scout.

It's a well thought-out write up, though, and a good read. I've generally appreciated the maps in MWO, but I do agree that further variety and better objective-based gameplay are needed - as it stands we basically have two game modes that aren't actually team deathmatch, but are almost always played as one.

And yeah, jump jets need love.

[Calimaw]

Febrosian R Gillingham, on 23 January 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

Change a few of the smooth hills/craters in Caustic and Forest Colony to be cliffs instead...

Look at that, you just made me realize there are no plateaus in the maps.
Everything is all 'erroded', or any one familiar with vertex mapping its a lot of 'noisey' terrain.
Add more flat areas! Landscape needs tweaking! This alone could change many things...

[Major Scumbag]

Ursh, on 22 January 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

small profile, lag shield, and horrible hit registration

Pretty common to watch a spider run through five medium lasers and either take zero damage, or extremely minimal damage.

It's not that the players are so good, but that the mechanics of the game are not really built well for small fast mechs right now.

Think he was asking how can a spider get 5 kills and 1k damage with 2 med lasers and 2 machine guns. Something like that. Dont think there is enough time in the game for a spider to rack up 1k damage.

Edited by Major Scumbag, 23 January 2013 - 07:56 PM.

[Merky Merc]

Calimaw, on 23 January 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

The Spider could be a lot of fun if the maps ressembled more of what MW3 had.

Let me stop that right there. MW3 if you mean modern warfare 3 had the same uninspired map design that call of duty has been running since CoD4, it's lame 3 path designs that are dull.

If you said make Arma, or BF3, or BF2:Project Reality style maps, I would be all over it.

But I think we're going to have a lot of issues with balance as a result of map design, more when the clan tech becomes tiered for just that faction, and a happy state (balance wise) should the game last until the FedCom civil war.

[mekabuser]

Ill go back and read it all, but theres nothing wrong with the spider. For one, its the premier sheepherder mech today.
It has ecm, and JJ so it can scout from cover. Its somewhat fast, maneuverable as hell, and with the right loadout able to do substantial damage.
I can scout, provide intel, ecm coverage, light hunt and aid any and all of my team mates in seconds flat arriving on scene from high in the sky , lazers ripping across your mech.

Not to mention its fun..
Not to mention its psychological warfare..
It reminds me of playing the rac5 vtol in mwll, except its alot easier.

ps read the blog.. Yeah, well maps... Im not impressed with these maps at all. Forest , ok, cauldron, ok, river... eh.. river night... yech. and frozen.. pos.
It worries me that map dev is so slow because it means we are stuck with whatever they come up with.. slowly..
At least if they got em out in quick succession, you could hope there are a few gems in there.

Edited by mekabuser, 23 January 2013 - 08:38 PM.

[Calimaw]

Merky Merc, on 23 January 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

Let me stop that right there. MW3 if you mean modern warfare 3 had the same uninspired map design that call of duty has been running since CoD4, it's lame 3 path designs that are dull.

If you said make Arma, or BF3, or BF2:Project Reality style maps, I would be all over it.

But I think we're going to have a lot of issues with balance as a result of map design, more when the clan tech becomes tiered for just that faction, and a happy state (balance wise) should the game last until the FedCom civil war.

Uhhhh... Mech Warrior 3? Derp?

[Sable Dove]

mekabuser, on 23 January 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:

Ill go back and read it all, but theres nothing wrong with the spider. For one, its the premier sheepherder mech today.
It has ecm, and JJ so it can scout from cover. Its somewhat fast, maneuverable as hell, and with the right loadout able to do substantial damage.
I can scout, provide intel, ecm coverage, light hunt and aid any and all of my team mates in seconds flat arriving on scene from high in the sky , lazers ripping across your mech.

Not to mention its fun..
Not to mention its psychological warfare..
It reminds me of playing the rac5 vtol in mwll, except its alot easier.

Well, considering Scouting and intel isn't all that useful with the current state of the game, and only one of the three has ECM, only one of your points is left, and it's assuming that you can survive that long.

Also, psychological warfare as in the enemy gets a morale boost because they see that they have easy prey?

[Calimaw]

Removing the Raven 3L ECM, or Speed buff for that model would change so much about this game. Look at any other light 'mech, none of them get a speed buff over any other variant, and the Jenner doesnt even get an ECM.

Why does 1 out of every light 'mech except the Jenner get ECM? And why does only 1 light 'mech get a speed buff over any other variant? Raven 3L gets best of both worlds, not to meantion its 35 tons.

The Spider could benefit from map changes, and new maps would benefit every ones interest.

New and larger maps; not one single change would benefit the game more.

[BerryChunks]

Sable Dove, on 23 January 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

With the new update, the Spiders have become abysmal. The only reason they were usable before was the most massive lagshield possible. Now that lag shields have been pretty much removed entirely, the Spider now has extremely low survivability, and still has very low firepower. They move fast, but the protection that speed offers now is minuscule, at best.

Before the patch, Spiders weren't fun because every game had a 3L that would certainly kill you. Now it's not fun because every game has any enemy mech, which will certainly kill you because they deal and take far more damage than you, and you have no advantage over them to compensate.

Then stop running through 5 enemy assaults.

[Anyone00]

Well if the entire 'mech moves slower going up inclines and in water' is ever implemented the value of jump jets will likely go up. But that bit is low on the priority list according to the last developer Q&A.

There seems to be a fair bit of places the Spider can take advantage of on River City and Frozen City. But it's difficult and suffers from the JJ's slowness (although faster JJ w/ no additional air control will likely make it harder but more useful).

I can't help but think the 5K will come into its own after machine guns are buffed and MASC is introduced.

The Spider overall will likely end up being the "Difficult, But Awesome" chassis.

[Merky Merc]

Calimaw, on 23 January 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:

Uhhhh... Mech Warrior 3? Derp?

Hmm derp indeed it seems.

[Calimaw]

Anyone00, on 23 January 2013 - 08:48 PM, said:

Well if the entire 'mech moves slower going up inclines and in water' is ever implemented the value of jump jets will likely go up. But that bit is low on the priority list according to the last developer Q&A.

There seems to be a fair bit of places the Spider can take advantage of on River City and Frozen City. But it's difficult and suffers from the JJ's slowness (although faster JJ w/ no additional air control will likely make it harder but more useful).

I can't help but think the 5K will come into its own after machine guns are buffed and MASC is introduced.

The Spider overall will likely end up being the "Difficult, But Awesome" chassis.

I favor the idea that Machine Guns become more viable, and with them Flamers as well. As it is they are so neglegable they ought not to even be in the game. However a few tweaks they can become a topic of "OMG Machine Guns and Flamers are OP". I'd rather see that than "Lol, your build is trash".

I pilot a COM-2D exclusively now, and I haven't tried any other 'mechs than the Hunch Back, Spider, Catapult, and Centurion. So my 'mech of choice does not use any Ballistic weapons due to no variant having any hardpoints for such, I think Machine Guns need fixed (I've played MW3 and did an all Machine Gun loadout on a Puma and in PvP it was HUGELY over-powered).

Flamers and Machine Guns are kind of like taking a wiffle bat to a knife fight.

[aniviron]

OP, you make good points in comparison between MWO and TF2. But while Valve has shown they are willing to let their legion of people make new content, right now a new skin for the commando is a big deal, and we haven't seen new maps in months. I don't know if PGI has the people to turn out the kind of content needed for this game to work like you envision. (Which is a real shame, back when I first heard about MWO I was picturing the Netmech style situations where one team had to defend an objective from destruction, with multiple routes and chances for different classes to shine.)

[Calimaw]

aniviron, on 23 January 2013 - 09:54 PM, said:

OP, you make good points in comparison between MWO and TF2. But while Valve has shown they are willing to let their legion of people make new content, right now a new skin for the commando is a big deal, and we haven't seen new maps in months. I don't know if PGI has the people to turn out the kind of content needed for this game to work like you envision. (Which is a real shame, back when I first heard about MWO I was picturing the Netmech style situations where one team had to defend an objective from destruction, with multiple routes and chances for different classes to shine.)

I'm a sound designer, and I can crank out a lot of work very quickly. What determines the speed at which I produce are dead-lines. I went to Vancouver Film School in BC, Canada and I did several times the work of my class mates to meet the dead-lines. The problem is that not every one treats a dead-line the same way, and not every one creates a dead-line with the same urgency.

Many people are driven by passion (myself included), and many others are driven monetarily.

Game companies are first companies (monetary), and secondly about games (passion).

[Adrienne Vorton]

the spider is one of those mechs that need a good pilot... most of the time i like hunting them with my jenny (no, i removed the ssrm´s, only running lasers ) but there are spider pilots who know what they do, who give me a hard time... i personally don´t like it, but i generally don´t like piloting lights anyway... i´m only piloting a jenner right now, because i got curious about the "fact" that the jenner is now a "terribad" mech... so wrong

BerryChunks, on 23 January 2013 - 08:45 PM, said:

Then stop running through 5 enemy assaults.

yep, helps alot w/o lagshield lights will be no more able to run "lone ranger style"... i for my part run the "large circle" around my teams area, so i can use them as cover if needed

yesterday i accidentely ran into the enemy team and got blown to little pieces in a milisecond... the gameplay for lights will change alot the more people get benefit from netcode fixes...

as i said for weeks now, it got better for me in november and continously increased... now it´s more and more people...bunnyhopping through the enemy team is more and more a bad idea

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 23 January 2013 - 10:25 PM.

[Calimaw]

This is now a "Why the Raven-3L is over-powered thread."

Topic: Speed boost, ECM, 35 Tons; GO GO GO!

see signature: Ravens... fffffffFFFFFFFUUUUUU!!!!

Edited by Calimaw, 23 January 2013 - 10:47 PM.