94 replies to this topic

[Thomas Hogarth]

Saw the "how should PPCs look" thread and got inspired.

First off, lets think about some descriptions from novels and sourcebooks:
They're described as, well, gauss rifles firing polished nickel-alloy projectiles at hypersonic velocities. I wasn't able to find any descriptions of muzzle flashes or muzzle blast, but some of the art has substantial muzzle flash/blast - to the point where I would expect it to shatter windows and pick up dust in a substantial radius around the rifle. Here's an example of the art I speak of:


boom.

There are numerous descriptions in the novels of projectiles in flight - they tend to refer to the projectiles as shiny (oblong spheres?) moving really fast. That's the best I can come up with, really. They do not mention a smoke trail, or blue energy rings, or anything of the sort. And that sort of makes sense.


really...?

Now that we have a baseline of what to look for, let's see how previous MechWarrior games have
So in MW3, Gauss Rifles fired a projectile that was... wrapped in some sort of sickly green goo, and seemed to definitely be subsonic. Opinions vary on what exactly a gauss rifle projectile should look like, but I don't think I've heard anyone point to MW3 as the gold standard in correct gauss rifle visuals.

In MW4, we saw the rise of the "blue spirals around projectile" style that seems to have stuck to some degree. Projectiles seem to move about the same speed as PPCs(which is funny, since that speed seems to be quite subsonic... for both). It looks neat, I guess, but... well, why the spiral in the first place? What does it represent? Where is the muzzle flash?


Better. I guess...

Finally, MWLL seems to have changed the blue spiral to blue rings. Again, not exactly sure what the rings are supposed to represent, but at least it looks cooler still.


See? That's pretty sweet. Still though, why the rings? Why no muzzle flash?


So, what should gauss look like?

If one were to ask me, I'd say heavy, heavy white/blue muzzle flash that everybody could see clearly, and shiny ball flying very quickly. The superobvious gauss projectile mechanic is a holdover from when muzzle flashes and shiny projectiles couldn't be handled by video cards, but now we CAN handle such mechanics. The muzzle flash keeps the firing unit from being totally stealthy, and the shiny ball can be a scary thing to see for whoever catches it.

Thoughts?

Edited by Thomas Hogarth, 05 November 2011 - 03:29 AM.

[Ilfi]

I'm not exactly hellbent on the blue spiral, but there needs to be something that differentiates it between an Auto Cannon on a visual level beyond "Oh, this one has more range and moves faster."

Also, although I doubt developers even thought about this back then, but the blue spiral smoke trail is quite revealing. That long-lasting smoke trail is something that all long-range weapons should have (mainly PPC, Gauss and LRMs). Exactly how it looks is up to interpretation, but the remnants of the shot should stick around for a few seconds.

Blue is a nice color to keep around, but muzzle flash would be nice too. Perhaps a little of both?

[ice trey]

Recent depictions of the Gauss rifle tend to look too shiny in my books. I understand that people feel gratified with bright, colorful things, but if the MWO concept art by Alex Iglecias is anything to go on, we're going for oily and gritty.

Most novels tend to describe gauss rounds as being "Silver Blurs", the old Battletech CCG card for a Cerberus showed the gauss rifles as huge silver blurred shapes resembling oversized bullets (think from mario brothers) just leaving the muzzles.

Likewise, go back to their first appearance in the Mechwarrior 2 series and I think you find their most impressive rendering. The firer would shoot the weapon and you'd see a huge ball-shaped chunk of metal fire out of your 'mech. On impact, there was no explosion, but shards of armor flew in every which direction. To me, that was the most impressive rendering of the gauss rifle - rather than just having an explosion and knowing that the armor points decreased, you could visibly see armor being broken off and shattered like slow-motion footage of a bullet going through a vase.

Mechwarrior 3's "Green Fireball" just felt silly, and Mechwarrior 4's Spiral beams felt to me like they were riding on the popularity of Bullet-Trails from The Matrix.

Edited by ice trey, 05 November 2011 - 04:02 AM.

[Jeremiah Rose2]

in my eyes the Guss is an not seen weapon no smoke or something like that you may see a scheme of the projektil. But the damag ist not as large as an ppc or an A-k because there is no explosion just kinetic energie.

[maxil]

Thomas Hogarth, on 05 November 2011 - 03:26 AM, said:

They're described as, well, gauss rifles firing polished nickel-alloy projectiles at hypersonic velocities [...] shiny ball flying very quickly.

you mentioned it twice and in the end it comes down to this. IIRC MechWarrior 2 had the most "realisitc" version of a Gauss Rifle, with only a ball flying towards the enemy.

but since the heavy projectiles have to pass several electromagnetic coils which need HUGE amounts of power, there should be some sort of electromagnetic discharge around the Gauss Rifle ( = muzzle flash)

http://upload.wikime...n_animation.gif

[Pariah Devalis]

I remember in the battletech books, especially the later ones, gauss was often described as traveling fast enough to friction burn the air as it flew through it. Perhaps a combination of the MW2 silver sphere slug and a meteorite-like burn trail?

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 05 November 2011 - 04:09 AM.

[Draco Argentum]

Thats what the nearest real world eqivalent looks like. Note that the projectile has no explosives, it just hits so hard that theres a light show on impact.

[Black Mamba]

Ah now i remember where i read that Gauss RIfle were like "silver blurs." Essentially, Pariah Devalis' pic and Draco Argentum's video sums up what the visual aspect should look like. More silver than blue i think.

The sound i think MW3, to some degree got it right. I really disliked MW4's pew pew-ish sound for the gauss rifle and its way too "colorful" for the new art style for this game. It should sound like a booming crack as the projectile goes supersonic.

[ice trey]

EIther way, since we're talking 3040s, while the Inner Sphere has recently relearned how to make the Gauss rifle, they should still be quite rare in universe, only being distributed to the most well equipped regiments.

You'd be unlikely to see one with, say, a Merc unit or even a mid-tier line regiment. Still, I think that it'd be interesting to see them pop up in things like Star League Caches. I can imagine them being quite expensive on whatever "market" battletech eventually gets. High damage, Low heat, all at the cost of low shots per ton, but still greater shots per ton than an AC20... They've got to make it rare. Even in Tabletop, the Gauss rifle tends to imbalance the game - a weapon that can take a 'mechs head off at long range? I often say that a tabletop game is decided in advance by who has brought the most gauss rifles to the table.

...Luckily, headcapping guns also mean High BV, limiting the number of units you can field.

But back to the topic at hand, while I agree that the rail-gun footage is the most accurate depiction, the Gauss rifle has always been a very cool-running weapon. I'm not sure if it should make quite as much fire as shown in that image. While Maxil's recommendation of sparks being thrown when fired seems a bit off in my mind, I definitely agree with that idea, if not even more dramatic lightning shooting every which way amidst an explosion, on a Gauss Rifle critical hit (Granted that they're so good as to bring Crithits back into the game). For those of you that aren't aware, unlike normal ballistic weapons where shooting an ammo bin causes it to explode, dramatically, the Gauss Rifles' ammo is inert - it's not got any propellant, it's just ***** of metal; on the other hand, if you shoot the Gauss Rifle, the banks of Capacitors used to fire the slug explode, sending electrical feedback to the cockpit much in the same way as ammo explosions cause neurohelmet feedback, and the explosion itself does 20 points of damage to the internal structure of the area (And the following areas' internal structure, if there is spill-over.)

[Amechwarrior]

Draco Argentum, on 05 November 2011 - 04:24 AM, said:

Thats what the nearest real world eqivalent looks like. Note that the projectile has no explosives, it just hits so hard that theres a light show on impact.

Yes this is very close but also drastically different. That is a railgun and the incredibly massive electric charge passes through the projectile unlike a gauss rifle. This heats up the slug far more then just air friction. The gauss rifle design does not have the rail-to-slug friction and vaporization that makes most of that videos amazing fireball, the gauss rifle slug never touches the barrel or coils. Still, air friction burns are a factor at those speeds and the pic of the meteor posted above would be both realistically close and gameplay essential to give away where the shot came from. Imagine if the gauss rilfes get implimented like they were in MW2. No trail, no sound, no "incoming missile warning" just BAM! you just lost nearly a ton of armor and no clue where it came from unlike laser weapons. It would get abused in no time.

Edited by Amechwarrior, 05 November 2011 - 04:45 AM.

[ice trey]

Black Mamba, on 05 November 2011 - 04:38 AM, said:

Ah now i remember where i read that Gauss RIfle were like "silver blurs." Essentially, Pariah Devalis' pic and Draco Argentum's video sums up what the visual aspect should look like. More silver than blue i think.

The sound i think MW3, to some degree got it right. I really disliked MW4's pew pew-ish sound for the gauss rifle and its way too "colorful" for the new art style for this game. It should sound like a booming crack as the projectile goes supersonic.

One thing I think I could agree with, in terms of the Mechwarrior 4's depiction, is the idea of "Rings" around the shot.

Of course, Mechwarrior 4's were so colorful, you'd think they were from a Las Vegas nightshow.

With todays' gaming technology, they should stick to the silver blurs as the metal slug flies at supersonic speeds (I remember hearing somewhere it was fired at Mach 2.2, but I could be mistaken), instead using distortion effects to depict the air being distorted around the shell as it fires.

[S3dition]

How about like a real one?

[Black Mamba]

ice trey, on 05 November 2011 - 04:46 AM, said:

One thing I think I could agree with, in terms of the Mechwarrior 4's depiction, is the idea of "Rings" around the shot.

Of course, Mechwarrior 4's were so colorful, you'd think they were from a Las Vegas nightshow.

With todays' gaming technology, they should stick to the silver blurs as the metal slug flies at supersonic speeds (I remember hearing somewhere it was fired at Mach 2.2, but I could be mistaken), instead using distortion effects to depict the air being distorted around the shell as it fires.

This distortion you speak of could prove useful. Say after the projectile is launched, the trail could leave an awake of distorted ripples or "rings." There will be no color to it except that it just merely distorts the background. For example, check the video S3dition posted. At the 0:06-0:07 mark (pause it), you can see the blue trail which leaves to the heat distorting the background.

Edited by Black Mamba, 05 November 2011 - 04:58 AM.

[Daneiel]

there was extensive topic about that in MekTek forum - and maybe most of the people liked short blue tail.

[Black Mamba]

daneiel varna, on 05 November 2011 - 04:59 AM, said:

there was extensive topic about that in MekTek forum - and maybe most of the people liked short blue tail.

Yeah i posted there too

[Gunman5000]

I like the idea of a distortion effect surrounding the slug as it is fired, given the speed it is travelling at it definately makes sense from a phsyics standpoint. Add in a little light show from excessive energy being dumped by the capacitors to form a muzzle flash and a silver blur to represent the streaked image that sensors or your own eyes would pick up from the fraction of a second or so that you actually see the projectile and you have a fairly realistic gauss rifle, in my opinion.

[DFDelta]

@ the op
You sir have one of the best signatures I've seen in a while. Its glorious.
And why the hell did I hear the voice of Cave Johnson saying that while I read it?



On topic:
I'd like a blurred shell like thing thats followed by a blue-ish trail, similar to the MW:LL one.
Without the small rings in the trail, but with a big one at the muzzle.

Edited by DFDelta, 05 November 2011 - 05:18 AM.

[Draco Argentum]

Amechwarrior, on 05 November 2011 - 04:43 AM, said:

The gauss rifle design does not have the rail-to-slug friction and vaporization that makes most of that videos amazing fireball, the gauss rifle slug never touches the barrel or coils

Railgun slugs don't touch the rails, they're carried by shoes that fall away as the projectile leaves the rails.

[Black Mamba]

The fireball you see in the video is the friction from the projectile and air rubbing, which rapidly heats the air around it causing the fireball.

[Amechwarrior]

Draco Argentum, on 05 November 2011 - 05:19 AM, said:

Railgun slugs don't touch the rails, they're carried by shoes that fall away as the projectile leaves the rails.

Yes, good point and I missed that. But still, it makes the contact friction instead of the projectile itself and contributes to the massive flames seen in the video that a gauss rifle would not have at all. Looking at the video again, when the slug hits the target, it is lit up on the back end and there is only a trail of grey smoke behind it. Exactly like the "silver streak" descriptions above. Maybe only at the gun port is where these two type of guns differ in special effects.