33 replies to this topic

[Sifright]

Aym, on 23 January 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

Do you have a source for your linear damage model? I'm not convinced it's quite as you describe.
Also most people are not doing the DPS math correctly as SPL has a faster cool down. .5sec beam duration with a 2.25 sec cool down allows you to shoot many more times before running to hide, bleed off heat, or whatever when compared to a 1 sec beam duration and a 3 sec cool down.
I am not advocating the SPL over the Mlas in general, however if is viable situationally and that is a solid design goal for all weapons in MWO. Some tweaks will probably make it more viable and arguably that will be a good thing.

Devs have stated that lasers do damage in a linear fashion with the beam 'hits' sliced down to hits done every 0.05 on standard lasers pulse lasers work similarly with each pulse occurring at set intervals.

The dps calculations most people are doing is wrong because they aren't doing DPS = damage/ (beam duration + recycle rate)

for medium laser the dps is 5 / 3+1 = 1.25 DPS vs 1.09 DPS for SPL which has severely reduced range in comparison. and creates more heat per given time value in comparison.

The SPL is worse than the medium in every engangement envelope that either weapon can perform in and the medium can shoot out further than the SPL as well.

[Kell Draygo]

WolvesX, on 23 January 2013 - 04:09 AM, said:

A difference of 0.5 secs of beam duration makes you HIT BETTER ???

As someone who played light mechs excessively in closed beta, before collision was removed and the travesty that was ECM was implemented, small pulse lasers was an amazing piece of weaponry for light pilots. You may think 0.5 seconds is nothing but it is a damn eternity when you are fighting a light mech; when you are more focused on not crashing into a teammate to knock you and him down (most time of the time causing your death, his death, both of your deaths), not crashing into an enemy (causing your death); when you need to weave and change directions more because lag shield was not as bad back then.

0.5 seconds is a very long time and the less time you need to paint the target, the more time you can maneuver and be more aware of your surroundings, especially if you're more of a solo queue player. With groups, you may have cover from a teammate you can trust or have one let you know if there is another Mech closing in on you but when you queue solo, you have a lot of factors to consider.

So no, small pulse lasers are not rubbish. On fast mechs, I prefer them because you can close the distance easier. And these days they are even more important due to lag shield.

[Melcyna]

just pull the info from the Ohm's weapon guide...

to help let me pull the relevant info.

C/D = Cooldown B/D = Beam Duration

Small Pulse Laser
Dmg: 3
Heat: 3
C/D : 2.25
B/D : 0.5
DPS: 1.33

Med Laser
Dmg: 5
Heat: 4
C/D : 3
B/D : 1
DPS: 1.66

note: i did not include the beam duration in the dps calc here.

All pulse lasers primary advantage essentially is that they deliver tighter damage burst, essentially it lets you unload the damage as quickly as possible and return your attention to either driving or to line up the next burst.

For lights and fast mech (like the Swayback hot rod) they essentially lets you throw the salvo quickly and return the focus back to driving and not crashing to something, which can be quite fatal since coming to a dead stop in any of the light typically can kill you.

The question is whether it's worth the trade off in raw damage output and range.

Edited by Melcyna, 23 January 2013 - 07:03 AM.

[seymourbalzac]

I would rather take 2 small lasers then a small pulse or a small laser and a half ton of armor then a small pulse, I just don't see the point in using it.

[Kell Draygo]

When collision is put back into the game, you will see more light mechs use it. But we won't see that for another year.

[RickySpanish]

My Awesome 8R wears a couple in his one good arm, the reason they're pulses is precisely for the shorter beam duration. The faster I can get my lasers off, the faster I can swing my torso around to shield it with my fist arm and the more time I can dedicate to aiming my SRMs, as the pulse burst afterwards is short. I also have a lot of heatsinks to counter act heat generated by SRMs, so they're practically heat neutral.

[Anudiz]

I have to say all the pulse lasers are UP.
You gain a shorter beam duration, but trade in Tons, heat and range significantly.
It just isnt balanced. Pulslasers arent always bad, but in almost all cases are inferior to normal lasers.

Also the medium laser vs small pulse laser comparison is won by the medium in pretty much every way.
Better heat
Better Dps
Better Dmg per shot
Way better range

There is only a single thing that gives the sml pulse laser a little advantage.
it needs 0.1 sec less to deal 3 dmg per beam, which is absolutely insignificant.

[ICEFANG13]

While I agree that complete hatred for both Small Pulses and people who use them is silly, Small Pulse Lasers really are pretty worthless. Its not quite that Small Pulses are extremely bad though, its that Medium Lasers are extremely good. You can't go wrong with a Medium Laser. The comparison of Small Pulse<>Medium is somewhat illogical, I mean, if you have the tonnage, and heat efficiency, then it would make sense that you should up your Small Lasers to Small Pulses, however, since they are both at a ton, most players will be better off with Medium Lasers. Imagine if Medium Lasers weighed 2, and Medium Pulse at 3, then they would really compare, and all the lasers would have a logical and linear comparison to weight and damage (I am not suggesting this however). In reality, all of the Pulse Lasers are inferior. They all weigh too much and are too hot to be effective. Only the Large Pulse, because it is largest, is considered a potential weapon. 2 Medium Pulses over a Large is also sometimes considered, but the Medium Pulses are just too hot most of the time.

Do not knock the Small Pulse either, it does have merit, but it does either need 1 more damage, or .25 seconds to fire off (and cooldown increased by .25 seconds). It really doesn't compare well enough to Medium Lasers in any way.

[WolvesX]

Anudiz, on 23 January 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

I have to say all the pulse lasers are UP.
You gain a shorter beam duration, but trade in Tons, heat and range significantly.
It just isnt balanced. Pulslasers arent always bad, but in almost all cases are inferior to normal lasers.

Also the medium laser vs small pulse laser comparison is won by the medium in pretty much every way.
Better heat
Better Dps
Better Dmg per shot
Way better range

There is only a single thing that gives the sml pulse laser a little advantage.
it needs 0.1 sec less to deal 3 dmg per beam, which is absolutely insignificant.

Yup!

[General Taskeen]

WolvesX, on 23 January 2013 - 04:14 AM, said:

Wouldn't it be more interessting for all if the weapons & equip would be balanced ?

Indeed. Balanced+Variety.

[Vapor Trail]

In TT there was one build scenario that I would use small pulses vs mediums... and that would be when I could mount a LOT of them.

Basically take a light mech, and instead of mounting 5 mediums and 5 heat sinks, I could mount 8 small pulse and two heat sinks. The heat would be a tad higher, but instead of five shots at a standard to hit, I'd have 8 at a 16.6% better to hit.

If you can dump an SPL into someone while at high speed, you can dump a ML into the same spot... and have more damage chasing it. The advantages do not outweigh the disadvantages.

[Trev Firestorm]

Kell Draygo, on 23 January 2013 - 06:44 AM, said:

As someone who played light mechs excessively in closed beta, before collision was removed and the travesty that was ECM was implemented, small pulse lasers was an amazing piece of weaponry for light pilots. You may think 0.5 seconds is nothing but it is a damn eternity when you are fighting a light mech; when you are more focused on not crashing into a teammate to knock you and him down (most time of the time causing your death, his death, both of your deaths), not crashing into an enemy (causing your death); when you need to weave and change directions more because lag shield was not as bad back then.

0.5 seconds is a very long time and the less time you need to paint the target, the more time you can maneuver and be more aware of your surroundings, especially if you're more of a solo queue player. With groups, you may have cover from a teammate you can trust or have one let you know if there is another Mech closing in on you but when you queue solo, you have a lot of factors to consider.

So no, small pulse lasers are not rubbish. On fast mechs, I prefer them because you can close the distance easier. And these days they are even more important due to lag shield.

Agree mostly, but the slas is so very similar that the tonnage and heat savings actually made it a much more appealing weapon to me during cbt for lights, mediums did not rate due to heat and long beam duration (remember no ff/endo or double hs back then as well). And don't forget no speed/engine cap back far enough either, getting damage on target while whooshing past at ludicrous speed trying to not crash...

Edited by Trev Firestorm, 27 January 2013 - 10:42 AM.

[Rina Fujimoto]

SPL's suck cause they got nerfed hard a while back (all pulse weps did)..

Anyone remember the 7 SPL Hunchback? New players didn't have to deal with the horror.

[Sug]

Aym, on 23 January 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

Do you have a source for your linear damage model?

http://mwomercs.com/...us/page__st__40

David Bradley, on 22 November 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

Thanks you for your responses guys. I assumed it was something along those lines, but just wanted to be sure. In any case, the numbers for double heat sinks are something that we will very likely be looking over once again.

Also, I just realized that I forgot to include something in my answer regarding how crit hits work. Weapons that deal damage over time, like lasers, work by quickly dealing tiny amounts of damage repeatedly over the lifetime of the laser beam. I think the medium laser does something like 0.20 - 0.25 damage repeatedly until it does the full 5 damage. Each of those micro damage hits have their own chance to crit. This means that lasers will have many chances to crit, but the crits will be spread out amongst the equipment in the location, and do little damage each time. Meanwhile an autocannon will have only one chance to crit per shot, but do all its damage to one piece of equipment (or applied multiple times if you get a double or triple crit).