138 replies to this topic

[BerryChunks]

Vlad Ward, on 24 January 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:

Lights were fine back in Closed Beta when Collisions were a thing and lagshield wasn't.

All that the reintroduction of those things means is that people will have to learn how to pilot lights again. The vaunted "Hurr durr run in circles and shoot streaks until everyone else falls over" strategy has already begun to lose its luster.

Lights can turn and accelerate on a dime, making them perfect for matching the movements of larger Mechs and staying completely outside their line of sight (and thus line of fire).

I dunno, most larger mechs build themselves around 80-85 kph, which in turn grants them freakishly fast torso twist and mech turn rate, so while you might be able to do that with a 150 kph mech, don't try it wth a 97-113 kph mech, they can turn just as fast as you can pivot and run around them.

[Heeden]

Rejarial Galatan, on 25 January 2013 - 01:40 AM, said:

um, no it is not proper that they have a GOOD chance to take out an assault 1 on 1. THE ONLY way this is possible is: if the assault is unconscious at the wheel. Given PROPER 100% armor structure values, the light has 0 chance to take an assault that has a conscious pilot, because that light, FULLY OPERATIONAL is odds on in weight only as heavy as the ASSAULT MECH's ARMOR. BUT, given that PGI gives ALL mechs 200% armor/structure? then its anyones guess.

Don't forget larger mechs also get the doubled hit-points, giving them chance to move into an area that is tactically advantageous (i.e. get their backs against a wall).

A highly skilled light-pilot getting the drop on an assault in the open should be able to take them out even if the light had 1 hit-point. There comes a level of skill where you can keep completely out of the line-of-fire of a slow enough mech and at that point it is only a matter of how long it takes them to die.

[Knights0fNi]

BerryChunks, on 25 January 2013 - 01:51 AM, said:

Not if you want to play Mechwarrior. If you want to play Armored Core, or Chromehounds, or Tsunami 2265, sure. But assault mechs have always been a recognized "smash lights" unit. The only reason you seem to think that lights should take an assault 1v1 is because bad netcode has allowed it.

Get this: All mechs had equal arm and torso swing speeds prior to MWO.

www.battletech.nl/regels/CBT_Introductory_Rulebook.pdf

In all rulebooks regarding mechs vs mechs, you will READ that light mechs are not supposed to stand ground with heavier mechs. Even the dragon is undergunned for it's weight class, and can be "outgunned" by particular medium weights. Do you think that Lights should have some sort of unfair advantage to subvert the relational behavior of mechs to each other? Run, use terrain, stay in blind spots. Don't think going toe to toe with an assault should be reasonable.

You sound like you're saying that lights shouldn't be killed so fast, which is what we see happening since the netcode fix. But that means that players ARE actually aiming, so then what was the entire point of your post, since you said yourself that a person who can AIM with an assault should be able to beat them. I highlighted that for you.

We see lights dying more now because there are so many bad pilots who depended on lagshield. Once they're weeded out I think you will see skilled light pilots still killing lone assauslt with relative ease. Hell, I've done it a lot since the patch in a raven, assaults are slow and easy pickings when they're alone, even for a medium mech.

My point about assault drivers who can aim well is that, yes when they hit a scout they do a lot of damage, but since scouts are more manuverable it takes a LOT more skill and timing to damage that scout when you are an unssported assault than it takes for the scout to damage you. Thats legit, if the assault displays poor tactics and gets seperated and the two pilots are of even skill, the scout will probably win because hes very hard to hit. However, if the assault driver is MUCH more skillful than the scout he can skill kill or drive off the scout.

Also keep in mind MWO has taken a departure from prior MW games and BT in order to encourage varied play. In cannon, lights do represent a threat to assaults (and all other mechs) because of thier speed and manuverability, they aren't just scouts, but BT and MW have not done a very good job at representing this. In prior games light mechs werent as small and agile as they are in mwo and, as you say, torso and arm speeds were similar in all classes. This lead to a problem where most everyone didnt play scout mechs because they were worse. In fact everyone mostly piled into the biggest mech they could get because you had more armor and guns. In TT the rulebooks you quote indeed say that lights are 'outgunnned'. So what? You cant kill what you cant hit. TT rules do not port directly to this game in all cases. We have no BV system, so if assault mechs have no disadvantage, everyone would play one, and thats boring.

Cannon supports the idea that all mechs are combat capabale. I'm pretty sure that lights out-manuvering unssuported assaults is intentional and wont be going anywhere anytime soon.

I know that when I drive my stalker or atlas, or even the slower heavies like the phract i make sure to stick together so as not to get crippled or killed by faster opponents and that's the way it should be.

Edited by Knights0fNi, 25 January 2013 - 08:28 AM.

[Knights0fNi]

Rejarial Galatan, on 25 January 2013 - 01:40 AM, said:

um, no it is not proper that they have a GOOD chance to take out an assault 1 on 1. THE ONLY way this is possible is: if the assault is unconscious at the wheel. Given PROPER 100% armor structure values, the light has 0 chance to take an assault that has a conscious pilot, because that light, FULLY OPERATIONAL is odds on in weight only as heavy as the ASSAULT MECH's ARMOR. BUT, given that PGI gives ALL mechs 200% armor/structure? then its anyones guess.

Double armor/structure values do nothing but double the time it takes to kill somone. It scales across all mechs. If they halved it or doubled weapon damage, all battles would end exactly the same way, in half the time. Why do we care?

The big change that lets scouts kill assaults more easily is the size difference, and the turning and torso speed penalties on assaults. I'm pretty sure thats on purpose so that people do pilot lights, so assaults need support from other mechs and so that everyone doest just pilot an assault for the guns and armor. This was a flaw with many past MW games. Why pilot a jenner when i can have a stalker? With no BV system, this kind of threat to assaults in necessary if we want to have a varied field of mechs.

[Vila deVere]

Lights make great scouts. The current state of ECM makes that role a bit less valuable than it once was, but IMO, there are ways to fix that,

Also, the current "you can drop with any 'Mech you want" system leads to a tendency to have much heavier companies (well, 2 lances), than you see in lore, or TT. Some sort of BV or weight limitation would help make mediums and lights more valuable in a drop. It might make some assualt pilots (like myself) have to wait longer for a match, btu I think it would lead to better 'Mech balance.

As it is now, if you drop in a battle where you are a lit, and your team has 5-6 assualts, you know it's gonna be a long day!

[MischiefSC]

A limitation on tabletop though was associated costs with heavy and assault mechs. They were rare just as much because, well, they were physically rare as for any other reason. And horribly expensive to field and maintain.

MWO pretty much gets rid of that. In TT it pretty much was a ladder - bigger mechs were universally better. You needed lights for specific tasks but even light pilot mechs generally wanted something bigger, stronger and safer.

MWO got balanced to instead try and provide approximate value for different builds so it was choice and not neccessity that drives mech choices.

That lights are a threat to assault mechs absolutley goes against canon in every way. The only real exception to that was in the old 3025 tech readout before the Robotech copyright issues when some general tried to field a 'swarm of locusts', a bunch of Locusts, Wasps, Stingers and the like. Which, by the way, failed miserably because armor and firepower trumped their speed and maneuverability.

However. MWO is a different environment and balancing changes have been made to keep lighter mechs viable by choice and not poverity/limited supply. Light mechs work in MWO though because of violations of game canon. That's fine, I get the logic for that decision, just don't pretend it's somehow in keeping with the whole BT universe.

[Galland]

In TT wasn't there some kind of penalty for trying to hit a target the more hexes it moved in a turn? So if a really fast Light like a Spider or Locust ran 12 hexes, it would be almost impossible to hit unless the pilot was stationary and really skilled? Heaven help you if you tried to hit a Clan Dasher that was MASCing at 20. Of course the Dasher only had 38 armor, so one hit is all you need...

In MWO, all other things being equal, a Light will have a serious disadvantage against an Assault in terms of firepower. One advantage that the Light does have is more maneuverability so he can theoretically stay out of the Assault's fields of fire. Unfortunately, the Light doesn't have much weapons or armor, so one hit from an Assault's multiple Medium or Large lasers can ruin the Light pilot's day, and a Light's one or two Medium Lasers will take forever to strip even the rear armor off an Atlas.

A Light's pilot should therefore keep with scouting and other activities where their enhanced mobility gives them an advantage. I would even suggest giving them better sensors, like having them mount the Level 1 Sensor Module and/or Target Information Module without having to unlock them first in the Pilot Trees. If they want to fulfill the recon role further, that weight-class alone should have the ability to call down off-map Artillery strikes using TAG.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

op are you really arguing that lights need lagshield or they dont have a role?

Galland, on 25 January 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

In TT wasn't there some kind of penalty for trying to hit a target the more hexes it moved in a turn? So if a really fast Light like a Spider or Locust ran 12 hexes, it would be almost impossible to hit unless the pilot was stationary and really skilled? Heaven help you if you tried to hit a Clan Dasher that was MASCing at 20. Of course the Dasher only had 38 armor, so one hit is all you need...

you also had to roll piloting rolls to make turns at those crazy *** speeds or trip, fall, skid and take damage.

[b00zy]

decent light pilots will still tear it up it's easy to not run into mech's and the netcode issue though real is also a giant scapegoat for players with terrible aim which in my experience is a large ammount of the player base of this game.

[Hillslam]

Knights0fNi, on 25 January 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

We see lights dying more now because there are so many bad pilots who depended on lagshield. Once they're weeded out I think you will see skilled light pilots still killing lone assauslt with relative ease. ...

I think its more accurate to say: "now that netcode is improving, piloting skill matters."

Ergo:
Excellent Light pilots in Light mechs will kill Poor Assault Pilots in Assaults with relative ease.
Excellent Assault pilots in Assault mechs will kill Poor Light Pilots in Lights with relative ease.

Pilot skill matters now more than before. As it should be.

But I would disagree that in a 1v1 situation, with no preceding damage coming into the encounter, without other mechs distracting one pilot or the other, with no other support, and with EQUAL SKILL pilots (that is a light pilot good with lights and an assault pilot good with assaults) that the Light Mech has an advantage. We're getting into the ragged edge of statistics here but given all other factors being equal, my bet would be pretty strongly on the Assault. And my personal anecdotal experience pre- and post-patch, CB and OB enforces this, for me.

This isn't an insult to light pilot's mothers or anything. Its just what it is.

The illusion I think alot of people fell for over recent months is that somehow all skilled pilots gravitate and progress toward lights - leaving noobs and unskilled droolers unable to aim in the heavies and assaults.

Thats as false an assumption as is the one where only Premade players have skill and those who choose to pug have no tactics or ability to aim either. Thats patently wrong as well (but is a widespread belief, especially among premaders).


In the end - I think we're all actually on the same page: Pilot skill counting is a good thing. - I think we're all happy with this situation, yes?

Edited by Hillslam, 25 January 2013 - 09:04 AM.

[b00zy]

Hillslam, on 25 January 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

But I would disagree that in a 1v1 situation, with no preceding damage coming into the encounter, without other mechs distracting one pilot or the other, with no other support, and with EQUAL SKILL pilots (that is a light pilot good with lights and an assault pilot good with assaults) that the Light Mech has an advantage. We're getting into the ragged edge of statistics here but given all other factors being equal, my bet would be pretty strongly on the Assault.

That depends on the assualt mech and the light mech and their loadouts an Atlas should always win but a stalker or awesome will have a much harder time especially the awesome

[Vila deVere]

Yup. I still see skilled light pilots messin' folks up and keelin' stuff. And thery are good enough to know when to slip away. But lights can no longer just wade into a brawl and stay and stay. I could not be happier. Now we just need collisions again and all will be right with the world! Well, there are some things that need attention....

[Vila deVere]

b00zy, on 25 January 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

That depends on the assualt mech and the light mech and their loadouts an Atlas should always win but a stalker or awesome will have a much harder time especially the awesome

Always? I dunno about that. I think a quality light pilot should stand a chance against a crappy Atlas pilot. But it is not the light's role to take down assualts solo.

I was in a fight the other day. I was in an Atlas (a bit beat up) and the enemy had 2 Atlases (pretty beat up) and a Raven left (a bit beat up). I killed the two damaged Atlases and went to work on the Raven. We danced a bit, but ultimately, I was getting the better of him. But the pilot was NOT an *****. He saw the handwirting on the wall. Did he try to stay and kill me? No. He beat feet and went and capped my base. He recognized that even though we were MUCH closer to his base than mine, he was MUCH faster than me, and he was able to start capping a second or two before I was able to, and his side won.

He recognized that at that point, the value of his 'Mech was NOT in trying to take me down ( a task he was very likely to fail at), but in his ability to get from point A to Point B quickly. Good on him.

[b00zy]

Vila deVere, on 25 January 2013 - 09:17 AM, said:

Always? I dunno about that. I think a quality light pilot should stand a chance against a crappy Atlas pilot. But it is not the light's role to take down assualts solo. I was in a fight the other day. I was in an Atlas (a bit beat up) and the enemy had 2 Atlases (pretty beat up) and a Raven left (a bit beat up). I killed the two damaged Atlases and went to work on the Raven. We danced a bit, but ultimately, I was getting the better of him. But the pilot was NOT an *****. He saw the handwirting on the wall. Did he try to stay and kill me? No. He beat feet and went and capped my base. He recognized that even though we were MUCH closer to his base than mine, he was MUCH faster than me, and he was able to start capping a second or two before I was able to, and his side won. He recognized that at that point, the value of his 'Mech was NOT in trying to take me down ( a task he was very likely to fail at), but in his ability to get from point A to Point B quickly. Good on him.

well here is the thing as your story points out a decent light pilot is not going to sit and dance with an atlas anyway unless it's mostly dead as the time it takes to take down an atlas with the weaponary most lights carry makes it not worth its time.

Edited by b00zy, 25 January 2013 - 09:23 AM.

[Rejarial Galatan]

BerryChunks, on 25 January 2013 - 01:44 AM, said:

A broken game mechanic wasn't meant to allow lights to swarm and down masses of assault mechs.

Now you have to know your role. Scout.




Tidbit for you: A centurion in MWO has the same amount of armor as an Atlas in CBT.

you are wrong. the Centurion armor weight is 8 tons, the Atlas is 18 tons.

[Tex1013]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 25 January 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

op are you really arguing that lights need lagshield or they dont have a role?



you also had to roll piloting rolls to make turns at those crazy *** speeds or trip, fall, skid and take damage.

No. My original post was not an argument, it was a question - IF upgraded netcode and collisions make it impossible for Lights to compete as damage dealers, WILL they still have a role, and what would it become?

as it turns out, and I've mentioned this at least once before, turns out that pilots that love their lights are still quite confident that they can be effective damage dealers and on the offensive, and kudos to them! So I don't need to be worried about the combat role of lights.

But, *regardless* of whether lights are effective as attack mechs or not, I'd *still* like to see their role as support mechs expanded and better appreciated by the mechanics of the game. So yes, you can continue to strike at enemy mechs in a combat role, but I would ALSO like to see light mechs fulfill some of their other roles, including spotting and recon, objective capturing, hit-and-fade assaults, maybe even ambushing.

[Heeden]

b00zy, on 25 January 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

well here is the thing as your story points out a decent light pilot is not going to sit and dance with an atlas anyway unless it's mostly dead as the time it takes to take down an atlas with the weaponary most lights carry makes it not worth its time.

Depends on the situation, I'll dance with an Atlas all night if it keeps him away from the brawl.

[Like a Sir]

b00zy, on 25 January 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

That depends on the assualt mech and the light mech and their loadouts an Atlas should always win but a stalker or awesome will have a much harder time especially the awesome

Really depends on the engine, I have no problem with a light winning 1v1 with assault, as long as they win through superior speed and by maneuvering in the assaults blind spots. High risk high reward. Encourages team play. Now back to the engine size, it effects torso twist speed, with that being said, it would purely depend on pilot skill and the top speed of both mechs. AWS-9M in the hands of a good pilot, would have better odds of killing a light than atlas or a stalker any day. It's just easier to catch them.

[Nahuris]

I posted this in one of the other threads on this same subject, so I am just going to repost it here.....


The funny part is, as a Commando Pilot, the patch has nearly doubled my average damage and effectiveness.
Unfortunately, living in Washington, I was close enough to the servers, that combined with being on a cable modem, I never got my promised lagshield.
Instead, I got things like the following. While attempting to run to the right of a building, and put it in between me and Mr. Atlas..... I would suddenly stop... then go... then hop back..... then impact the building.... and then hop to the left of said building..... then face some random direction while stopped.... and then re-appear at my start point minus all armor..... and then MR. Atlas gets to hit me......

i also loved the weapons that routinely went through terrain to hit me, because the HEAVY mech firing, lagged, but tagged.... and suddenly, I receive random damage..... which, if I had received it when I was supposed to, would have changed the tactics I was using.
And that doesn't count the times where I suddenly make a 90 degree turn into enemy crossfire without touching a single key.... or just teleport to some random location on the field.....

This fix helps lights as much as it helps everyone else. Trust me, dealing with the above, and then being criticized for taking a mech you enjoy, because someone else made up a term "lagshield" made things less than fun for a while.....




For some of us, it was never about getting some mystical "lagshield" --- I like light mechs. Even on TT, over 40 of the 110 mech figs I own are lights. with another 40 mediums. I do not like the heavies or assaults, and prefer not to play them.
I am currently running ECM on my Commando, purely because I started getting team killed whenever I didn't have it.
My weapon package, until last night, was a medium laser, a srm4 and a srm6... now it's that medium laser, and 2 SRM4's (helps by giving me 5 more shots).

I actually die a LOT less now than I did during the "lagshield" days....because I can actually use my tactics without the bouncing bunny effect on my end. People didn't realize, but every time your Atlas had it's lag moment, you would probably not notice, but it would suddenly change things for the other players.......I remember being in the process of hitting a Catapult with my large laser, and suddenly, I rewind to where I was 3 seconds ago, am not in a position where I could even see said catapult, and oh, yeah... my arm's missing, because the mech that I didn't give a line of sight to on my end, did get a line of sight on their end, and I'm suddenly damaged. Funny part, is even though the game backed up to apply the damage to me, it still let the damage from my hit on the Catapult stand......

Nahuris

Edited by Nahuris, 25 January 2013 - 06:14 PM.