161 replies to this topic

[MWHawke]

JohanssenJr, on 26 January 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

That was me, you took my left arm and left me no armor anywhere. But I just ran in circles around you chain firing my SSRMs. I wish the devs would make a lock need to be reaquired after each time an SSRM was fired. Preventing the cheese of SSRM chaining, because thats the best way to take down bigger mechs in a 2D. Against other lights I fire all three SSRMs simultaneously, and against bigger mechs I smack backspace, hold down Mouse1, A or D, and R-Ctrl and cheese it.

And I felt like an *** because thats the first night I ever ran SSRMs on my 2D.

Before ECM I ran the stock 2D weaponry, just changing the engine to a larger XL and adding armor and heatsinks. I found that more fun to use on bigger mechs because I could do more damage but had to play hide and seek. Now with ECM and the state of SSRMs, every time I dust off the striker lights I have to deal with a 2D or 3L, which have SSRMs.

I'd like to see SSRMs tweaked by losing their lock after firing them, which means that SSRM boaters would have to fire them all at once or not at all, which would discourage boating them, since I can deal far more damage and more concentrated with a 4pack and 6pack.

Think about it, it'd no longer be a no brainer. Do I take 3xSSRM2 with a guarantee to hit, but only dealing the damage of a single 6pack? Or do I take the 6pack and 4pack, and deal more damage to large mechs in a hit and run fashion but run the risk of being bird-bait? Or do I put a 6pack in the arm and a SSRM2 in the CT, so I can still hit the big mechs hard via hit and run, but at least being able to bite back at the birds?

Instead of just being pigeonholed into 3xSSRMs or bust.

Well, it also depends on the skill of the players involved and Assaults will always face challenges when dealing with Lights due to their heavy, pondering nature.

[Solis Obscuri]

JohanssenJr, on 26 January 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

That was me, you took my left arm and left me no armor anywhere. But I just ran in circles around you chain firing my SSRMs. I wish the devs would make a lock need to be reaquired after each time an SSRM was fired. Preventing the cheese of SSRM chaining, because thats the best way to take down bigger mechs in a 2D. Against other lights I fire all three SSRMs simultaneously, and against bigger mechs I smack backspace, hold down Mouse1, A or D, and R-Ctrl and cheese it.

And I felt like an *** because thats the first night I ever ran SSRMs on my 2D.

Before ECM I ran the stock 2D weaponry, just changing the engine to a larger XL and adding armor and heatsinks. I found that more fun to use on bigger mechs because I could do more damage but had to play hide and seek. Now with ECM and the state of SSRMs, every time I dust off the striker lights I have to deal with a 2D or 3L, which have SSRMs.

I'd like to see SSRMs tweaked by losing their lock after firing them, which means that SSRM boaters would have to fire them all at once or not at all, which would discourage boating them, since I can deal far more damage and more concentrated with a 4pack and 6pack.

Think about it, it'd no longer be a no brainer. Do I take 3xSSRM2 with a guarantee to hit, but only dealing the damage of a single 6pack? Or do I take the 6pack and 4pack, and deal more damage to large mechs in a hit and run fashion but run the risk of being bird-bait? Or do I put a 6pack in the arm and a SSRM2 in the CT, so I can still hit the big mechs hard via hit and run, but at least being able to bite back at the birds?

Instead of just being pigeonholed into 3xSSRMs or bust.

I never piloted lights a lot, but I did some back in the old days before SSRMs got popular (back before DHS, even ). Then it was pretty much "6 Small Lasers or Bust", but I had more fun with SRMs - and more success, even in light-duels planting a good missile blast when the opportunity presented itself could end a fight in a hurry! I think when things like collisions come back we'll see some more evolution in light tactics (and piloting skill!), but we've definitely got to get out of the SSRM pit for the time being. Even with the reduced lagshield they're the most effective choice out there, ton for ton or hardpoint for hardpoint.

MWHawke, on 26 January 2013 - 08:04 PM, said:

Well, it also depends on the skill of the players involved and Assaults will always face challenges when dealing with Lights due to their heavy, pondering nature.

Even good medium pilots can do this - had a couple HBK-4SPs glue themselves to the butt of my Stalker last night and they were hell to shake off.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Last night I was watching the kill cam as an almost untouched 2D rounded a corner face to face with a flaps open A1 6x6. The 2D evaporated.

I prefer twitch weapons, but this whole SSRM thing makes it a fools gander to take anything else in a light.

[TDR3D]

MWHawke, on 26 January 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

The funniest thing about all these postings that say Streaks are uber is that nobody seems to point out that MLasers shoot directly at your target and hits rather than having to wait for lock. If you can't even hit with MLasers, what are your chances of maintaining a lock on your target?

If you think about it, if you can maintain the lock using a Streak launcher, comparing that to pressing the fire button on your MLaser, you would be hitting your target the whole time right? And added to that, your MLasers are already recharging while you still have to wait for the Streaks to only begin recharging AFTER you achieve the firing solution and fire.

Streaks were never meant to be a fix to lagshield. They are a system that, once locks on, hits. Damage, as many people have pointed out, is calculated to a separate location roll. I feel they are pretty well balanced now.

And in case any one wants to argue, no, I rarely use Streaks today as I find with better netcode, SRM6s do better damage. And if anyone further wants to argue they have more experience and people should bow to them because of that, I have played BT from TT to the FIRST Mechwarrior on the first Apple computer until now.

Maybe everyone should chill out and think about their arguments before posting it out of malice?

Your rationalizing for Streaks is skewered so badly i have no idea where to start with this. If you honestly think streaks are comparable to anything else light mech pilots can equip, and the reasons you gave pertaining their weaknesses were at all justifiyiable, then you are seriously misinformed.

[CancR]

focuspark, on 26 January 2013 - 06:37 PM, said:

Spot on blinkin. SSRM are too easy to use currently, and have an unfair bias towards low skill usage when compared to every other weapon. LRM are similar, but at least they generally require teamwork to use to full effect.

+1. I'll keep hammering this point till it gets fixed.

Sasuga, on 26 January 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

Streaks are supposed to be 100% hit if a lock is achieved.

Fast mechs can dodge behind buildings, mechs can have ECM.

War is hell, adapt or die.

Again, this is some one with no other MW or battle tech experience guessing at what the rules mean.

in BT YOU STILL HAVE TO ROLL TO HIT. ALL THE PENALTIES THAT INCREASE YOU TO HIT ROLL EFFECT STREAKS, and you if you fail you simply dont fire saving heat and ammo. But the streaks in MWO are far to easy to obtain and hold a lock. It should follow my suggestion of losing the lock the second the cross hair leaves the bulk of the mech and not the large red box, and losing the lock when streaks are fired with the added part of of being able to start a new lock till after the streaks cooldown. Also bringing down damage to 2/missile as most every other weapon in the game shares the damage value.

[focuspark]

It would be better, more fair, and to the rules if SSRM fired just like SRM but when you attempted to fire the computer did a quick calculation of your angle of attack and your targets vector to determine if the missile would hit or not. If they'll hit, fire as normal, if not then prevent the shot and give a short cooldown (like 0.5 seconds) to prevent button mashing as a workaround.

[CancR]

You could be on to something. Maybe streaks should be the one weapon in the game that is hitscan; If you have the reticle on them and there is nothing in the way , then you can fire, and it registers damage, and if you, you don't fire. This could also be a solution for them not having the spread they should have. If the weapon is hitscan instead of having really fast homing missiles that hit in a far to tight cluster, it could just execute a algorithmic method of saying 'you fired x amount of streaks so this many hit the leg, this many hit ct this many hit arm and maybe one could possible hit head but more likely lt or rt.

[MWHawke]

TDR3D, on 26 January 2013 - 09:02 PM, said:

Your rationalizing for Streaks is skewered so badly i have no idea where to start with this. If you honestly think streaks are comparable to anything else light mech pilots can equip, and the reasons you gave pertaining their weaknesses were at all justifiyiable, then you are seriously misinformed.

Again, a pointless troll post. You are just posting that you are correct compared to other people's opinion without any justification. Please don't spam.

CancR, on 26 January 2013 - 09:53 PM, said:

You could be on to something. Maybe streaks should be the one weapon in the game that is hitscan; If you have the reticle on them and there is nothing in the way , then you can fire, and it registers damage, and if you, you don't fire. This could also be a solution for them not having the spread they should have. If the weapon is hitscan instead of having really fast homing missiles that hit in a far to tight cluster, it could just execute a algorithmic method of saying 'you fired x amount of streaks so this many hit the leg, this many hit ct this many hit arm and maybe one could possible hit head but more likely lt or rt.

Sounds like might be a good idea as well but Streaks either fire all or nothing so they would roll to hit for the whole Streak 2 and not for individual missile.

[CancR]

Some one should of thought of this sooner. This is the nerf streaks need. It prevents no skill firing and would give streaks the spread the need

[Deathz Jester]

Critical Fumble, on 24 January 2013 - 12:58 AM, said:

Uh, no? They're supposed to be roughly on par with SRMs of an equal tube volume. In other words, you're supposed to seriously consider if an SSRM2 or a SRM2 would be better. What we have right now is debating between the SSRM2 and the SRM6. Can you even imagine what would happen with clantech or even IS SSRM6s that only hit CT? Even with tweaking up the difficulty to use them, what could stand against those things?

Well imagine all the whining and tears when MRMs come into play, or if they added in Streak LRMs

[Critical Fumble]

CancR, on 26 January 2013 - 09:53 PM, said:

You could be on to something. Maybe streaks should be the one weapon in the game that is hitscan; If you have the reticle on them and there is nothing in the way , then you can fire, and it registers damage, and if you, you don't fire. This could also be a solution for them not having the spread they should have. If the weapon is hitscan instead of having really fast homing missiles that hit in a far to tight cluster, it could just execute a algorithmic method of saying 'you fired x amount of streaks so this many hit the leg, this many hit ct this many hit arm and maybe one could possible hit head but more likely lt or rt.

This is essentially what I think they need to do with streaks - make them play by rules similar to the other weapons.

I wouldn't mind if SRMs were manually guided either, making them useful at greater distances, unless they want to up their speed like the A/C 20's.

[Dirus Nigh]

Syllogy, on 24 January 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

When are you people going to learn that BattleTech is a Board Game, and not a Video Game?

This has nothing to do with the conversation. Mechwarrior is based off of the board game. When appropriate the devs use the printed stats, the universality POV of characters, and technical description (fluff), or any combination of the three to bases to translate this into a real time simulator. They some times change the rules when it is necessary Some times they get it right, some times they don't.

Armor values is a perfect example of a necessary deviation from the source material. It was the right decision to make. The hard point system is another. ECM is an example not fallowing the source material and getting it wrong.

In the case of Streaks fallowing the letter of the source material is not working. At the very least it is not working the way things are now. The weapons are way to dominant in the game. Any light that does not have ECM and or streaks does not stand a chance against those that do. Mechs that can mount large numbers of them like the catapult and stalker have a devastating weapon far beyond what the source material intended. The weapon needs to be changed.

It is important to get the weapon working right now, before the introductions of the clans. All clan tech will be based on how IS tech works. If it is unbalanced with IS stats it will be game braking as a clan version. Streaks need to be brought into balance before streak 4 and 6 launchers are implemented. If they are not then that will be the only short ranged weapon used.

A SSRM2 launcher does 5 points of damage. That damage as of now is concentrated on the torso. A clan SSRM6 launcher would do 15 points of damage. Think of a catapult that mounts six SSRM6s and firing them all at a mech. That is 90 points of damage. A stock atlas has 94 points of armor in its CT. The mech will be killed in two salvos. The streaks need to be fixed now so that does not happen in the game.

These are my recommendations for streaks.

Lock ons are broken after each firing of a streak system.

Target locks are specific to location on a mech. IE, if the missile system is in the torso you have to use the torso cross hairs to lock on.

Lock is broken when the targeting reticule strays 5-10m or more from the target.

Targets that brake LOS have a half second retention.

Streak missiles will spread out the same way standard unguided SRMs do, then converge on the target.

Streak missile hit location should be done per missile not in groups.

Lower the damage of streaks from 2.5 to 2.

[CancR]

I think we need to get every one behind making streaks hitscan as I described.

[Crazy Eight]

The whole entire point of streaks is %100 chance of hit your opponent, you know that right? they are meant to be bane to light mechs.

[Kelpaz]

Crazy Eight, on 27 January 2013 - 03:40 AM, said:

The whole entire point of streaks is %100 chance of hit your opponent, you know that right? they are meant to be bane to light mechs.

XD Now that's just funny.
You know in closed beta I used this weapon to remove anything in the game no prob.

Let this gameplay video from closed beta be a reminder of how OP streaks could be before ECM.

http://youtu.be/yDsDjvZ3DvA?t=2m18s

It can still be this very OP if a Streak cat aquires ECM support.
Spreading damage to side torsos arms and legs aren't enough.

No what they need is reducing turn rates and give them somewhat believeable trajectories.
In no other game I played with guided missiles have they been this 100% accurate fest.

For fun I have played around with the missile boxes, like aiming them completely upwards and firing that way.
The missiles will still go straight to target despite launcher angle.

Edited by Kelpaz, 27 January 2013 - 04:53 AM.

[Theobald Hauser]

"OP when backed up by another mech" is no balance argument. A lot, lot of builds are OP when backed up.

it's like saying "LRMs with a TAG/NARC light can too easily attack indirectly". It's the point.

Yeah yeah. "Teamwork is OP" as Critical Hits once said.

[Critical Fumble]

Would, "Streaks are OP because they don't suffer the inherent inaccuracy from firing at targets with a high relative speed that every other direct fire weapon has." be an argument?

[MWHawke]

Critical Fumble, on 27 January 2013 - 06:23 AM, said:

Would, "Streaks are OP because they don't suffer the inherent inaccuracy from firing at targets with a high relative speed that every other direct fire weapon has." be an argument?

No longer the case. Lasers are pretty accurate already.

[Theobald Hauser]

And it still wouldn't be an argument. it's a fact, but not an argument.
It's not because other weapons are lame against lights that streaks need to be lame too.

And yes other direct weapons work now, and have other strong points streaks have not. No ammos, better damage and rof, better range, no lock needed, no ECM vulnerability, ...
It's what balance is. If all weapons are bad against a target type, the game is broken. So basicaly, you want to break the game for the sake of unbreaking it where it is not.
Food for thoughts.

[Lege]

Streaks in TT were never 100% hit.
They were if a hit was scored they fired. If a miss was scored they didn't fire to save ammo and heat.
So basically SSRM never were intended for auto hit after lock.
They need to change it so you aim and if at the time you hit the fire button they would miss, then they don't fire.
LRMs are another story, I do like missile lock for them. They seem a little too accurate, but with terrain and long flight time it seems balanced.
Now the whole issue of missiles just blowing up when they hit their max range I have a problem with. I see a mech as 240m and moving away, fire, by the time the short ranged missiles get to them they are at 280m and the missiles just blew up and did no damage even though they were going right at the target.
I'm asking for a little more room there, maybe add another 10-33% to the range that they don't automatically explode.