182 replies to this topic

[Scarlett Avignon]

Madog, on 27 May 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:

Autocannons... They aren't really well thought out. A modern 120mm gun like the one on an M1A1 has a range of about 133 hexes. Double that with some of the more advanced munitions. Compare that to the AC/10's 20 hexs, or 600 meters. And the M1's gun can penetrate 22 inches of armor.

I would say that maybe they are using much larger shells because of changes in armor, but the books are quire clear that their calibers are the same range as ours today, from about 20mm to a bit over 200mm. So there's no reason ranges should be that much lower, unless they are aiming completely with iron sites.

It is a bit annoying to think that the 21st century US military could probably destroy all the mechs in the Inner Sphere.

(Aerospace fighters, OTOH, are pretty bad *** and would be next to invincible against modern militaries. Elementals would be pretty nasty too, against anything but an MBT.)

Yes, the ranges are wonky, but again, you're not taking into account that perhaps in the next thousand years, we makes some pretty significant advances in armor and armaments. 31st century armor is obviously much stronger than anything we posses today, and I'd assume that they have made advances in munitions (better propellants and explosives.)

Also, it's stated many times that ranges are given in EFFECTIVE measurements. This means that the weapons can shoot much farther, but under battlefield conditions, the ranges given are the farthest you can expect to produce effective results. A lot of this has to do with targeting systems. Electronics systems in the succession wars era took a big hit in ability due to their manufacturing base being basically annihilated. That autocannon you have may be able to shoot over the horizon, but try hitting something with it that is moving at 90 km/h at that range. It's going to be nigh-impossible. Especially since, in a mech, you aren't lining up the target through an iron sign on the barrel, you are being forced to use the targeting system since the gun is mounted in an arm that is possibly meters away from you.

The trade off is that you have a weapon system (the battlemech) capable of mounting enough weaponry to level a city block in a matter of minutes. No modern tank can make that claim, which points to the weapons being FAR higher powered than anything we have today.

[LordDeathStrike]

lams, clearly a ripoff of macross fighters......

[CaveMan]

Franklen Avignon, on 27 May 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

A lot of this has to do with targeting systems. Electronics systems in the succession wars era took a big hit in ability due to their manufacturing base being basically annihilated.

Even this argument has a big hole in it, because Star League and Clan 'Mechs don't have these limitations, and still have the same comically short ranges.

As far as I'm concerned, the ranges quoted in the game are just an abstraction for game purposes, like how 'Mechs always move in 30 meter hexagons instead of just walking from point to point and weapons fire that misses the target doesn't destroy nearby objects.

Besides, for the most part real game maps never have open fields that are 133 hexes across with nothing blocking line of sight. Weapon ranges that long would only matter in the flattest of terrain.

[Scarlett Avignon]

CaveMan, on 27 May 2012 - 09:08 PM, said:

Even this argument has a big hole in it, because Star League and Clan 'Mechs don't have these limitations, and still have the same comically short ranges.

As far as I'm concerned, the ranges quoted in the game are just an abstraction for game purposes, like how 'Mechs always move in 30 meter hexagons instead of just walking from point to point and weapons fire that misses the target doesn't destroy nearby objects.

That really is the right answer to this problem. The ranges are listed as they are for game balance purposes.

However, I'll say that, while the ranges do seem a BIT short, I don't think they are comically short. 270 meters is actually quite a long distance, especially under battlefield conditions.

If you play World of Tanks, you get a taste of this. Sure, the guns in the game are capable of shooting across the maps (a couple thousand meters) but it's more luck than skill to ever hit anything at those ranges, and the shells loose all ability to penetrate armor at that range. Don't forget that is with a massive amount of computer help with aiming, too. Effective engagement ranges are below 100m except for full-stop, hard-effort sniping.

Edited by Franklen Avignon, 27 May 2012 - 09:17 PM.

[Hagetaka]

Black Sunder, on 26 May 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

Because bigger does not always mean better and in most instances your AC20 barrel is very short compared to an AC2.

lol are you really going to argue in favor of the tabletop ballistics

really

[Auggie Barrenechea]

Personally, I hated the Wolf/Jade Falcon Trial of Refusal. Ok, I get the whole Phelan taking his group back to the Inner Sphere. Wolf's Dragoons did it. But, Jade Falcon won the right to absorb what was left of the Wolves. But they let the creation of the Jade Wolves and then the return to Clan Wolf? The Falcons were the one clan who did what they could to retain their traditions. They wouldn't just let them split off. It seemed to me the game/fiction developers just didn't know what to do with them.

[CaveMan]

Auggie Barrenechea, on 27 May 2012 - 09:25 PM, said:

Personally, I hated the Wolf/Jade Falcon Trial of Refusal. Ok, I get the whole Phelan taking his group back to the Inner Sphere. Wolf's Dragoons did it. But, Jade Falcon won the right to absorb what was left of the Wolves. But they let the creation of the Jade Wolves and then the return to Clan Wolf? The Falcons were the one clan who did what they could to retain their traditions. They wouldn't just let them split off. It seemed to me the game/fiction developers just didn't know what to do with them.

Author favorites. Ugh.

[Scarlett Avignon]

Hagetaka, on 27 May 2012 - 09:23 PM, said:

lol are you really going to argue in favor of the tabletop ballistics

really

He actually has a point. It's just not complete.

The length of a gun's barrel does affect it's performance a lot. Compare German guns from WWII. The AC/20 will be an analog to the 75mm L/24 gun. L/24 stands for the length of the barrel as measured in calibers. Hence, a L/24 is 1800mm in length. Compare this to the 50mm L/60 gun which had a 3000mm barrel length (we'll treat it as a AC/10.) Compare the two. The 75mm L/24 had a much larger shell packed with a larger explosive charge than the 50mm. However, the 50mm had a much longer effective range (along with better armor penetration and accuracy.) As a matter of fact, you could even make an argument that the TT ranges are a good reflection of these properties. As I stated before, ranges are listed in EFFECTIVE measurements.

Black Sunder is right, in that AC/20s are almost always snub-nosed cannons while smaller guns have increasingly longer (relative) barrel lengths.

The problem is that there is nothing stopping you from making the 75mm L/70 gun (long-barreled AC/20.) This gun would combine the damage of the 75mm shell with the range of the longer-barreled 50mm.

BUT WAIT!

The Germans did make that gun! The only problem is that they found it too heavy and large to mount on their lighter tanks, so they put it on a heavier chassis.

"So why didn't anyone in the Battletech universe think to make the barrel longer on the AC/20?"

Well, they did.

Long Tom

However, just like the Germans in WWII with the 75mm gun, they found the longer version is just too bulky and heavy to effectively mount on even the largest battlemech chassis.

Voila.

[Mercurial]

LordDeathStrike, on 27 May 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

lams, clearly a ripoff of macross fighters......

Uh, that was kind of the point, as rules were pretty much made to get the Stingers/Wasp/Phoenix Hawks (which were all Macross art) into the air.

Anyway, the obvious answers (The Dark Ages were terrible, we all pretty much know this), some parts of the Clan invasion bugged me too, and not just the clans. I do appreciate them turning the Capellan Confederation into more of a threat and less of a '80s cartoon villain of Btech universe' (Completely insane, often hilariously ineffectual), ditto for the Draconis Combine, who got fleshed out a bit from the 'Japanese Samurai stereotype' but for everyone of those I can point to a left turn that I didn't like--I personally kind of hated Ian Victor-Steiner-Hyphen Davion ('Lord Bland' I'm so annoyed I can't even be bothered to look up his proper name). Other supporting characters, such as Omi Kurita, make me wince with whatever scene she's in. As for the clans themselves: I could go on and on about that. They're absurd. I like the post on another thread pointing out that they're supposedly against contractions as 'debase' but are totally okay with using portmaneus like 'Quiaff' and 'Quineg.' Their culture and backstory is cartoonishly simplistic, even in a world that's frankly a little over-the-top to begin with.

Edited by Mercurial, 27 May 2012 - 10:01 PM.

[Scarlett Avignon]

Auggie Barrenechea, on 27 May 2012 - 09:25 PM, said:

Personally, I hated the Wolf/Jade Falcon Trial of Refusal. Ok, I get the whole Phelan taking his group back to the Inner Sphere. Wolf's Dragoons did it. But, Jade Falcon won the right to absorb what was left of the Wolves. But they let the creation of the Jade Wolves and then the return to Clan Wolf? The Falcons were the one clan who did what they could to retain their traditions. They wouldn't just let them split off. It seemed to me the game/fiction developers just didn't know what to do with them.

The Wolf/Falcon Refusal War is actually one of my favorite sections of BT lore. It was one of the first times you got to see Clan rituals and traditions exercised with no/minimal Inner Sphere interference, which allows you to see just how alien they have become from a 300 year self-inflicted exile from the rest of humanity.

You ask why the Jade Falcons allowed Clan Wolf to re-form after absorbing them, then turning them into Clan Jade Wolf? Well, you actually answered that question yourself. The Falcons were a tradition-bound highly conservative clan, and according to clan tradition, martial prowess is the one virtue that supersedes all others. The Falcons didn't let the Wolves go, Vladimir Ward fought for and won the right for their existence through a trial of refusal. Yes, it was a terrible mistake for the Falcons to allow happen. They had all but annihilated their ancient nemesis. However, they had to according to their own honor code. An honor code that Vladimir learned to manipulate through time spent with Ulric Kerensky.

While Battletech fiction writing has never been Shakespeare, the basis for a fantastic story is there.

[-Brian-]

Anything could happen tech-wise more than a 1000 years from now, up or down. The world used to be flat, that was accepted as fact. Breaking the sound barrier would destroy an airplane etc. So for me, I'd never say blank won't ever happen. Going the other way makes me think of the F-4 Phantom II. At the time, everyone knew that missles were where it's at and a gun on a plane was obsolete. In practice that proved to not be the case at all and future planes were fitted with guns again. Kind of like the comment on melee weapons.

Also just wanted to comment on how I think a lot of people assume that the best military forces today have so much technology at their disposal, like in a movie. There are a lot of really neat technologies being used, but at the same time you'd be amazed at how often the most old school tech just flat out works better.

Think of how drastically wars would be fought if oil dried up tomorow. In terms of lost tech, even if you knew we had tanks that ran on gas you wouldn't be able to run that tank without fuel. It may take a whole different branch of tech to even make the first one work. Point is, there are so many variables that could happen over 1000 years that I'd say pretty much anything tech wise could happen or get whiped out.

[WraithTR1]

Far Country is just plain bad. I don't have an overall problem with the Dark Age, but how they got to that point bugs me to no end. The clans really get to me. I cannot see a group of people largely made up of military personnel travel far beyond known space and in 200 years exceed the technological level of man kinds supposed golden age. The Terran Hagemony created the ER Large Laser in 2620 and by 2780 had found no way to improve it or transfer the knowledge to the medium or small laser with some of the best scientist around. However an army is able to travel to a group of uninhabited planets, settle these planets, start fighting amongst themselves, leave again, find more planets to settle, establish a new society, go back and reclaim the earlier planets, and then proceed to vastly improve their tech. All this without any kind of existing support structure whatsoever just doesn't make any sense.

Reading earlier post about the ages, while the average life span does not seem to have progressed significantly the capabilities that people upon reaching older ages seems to have increased greatly. Natasha Kerensky at 77 was able to beat out 5 other Clan Wolf warriors in their prime, Jamie Wolf died at 81 presumably beaten by overwhelming numbers, Takashi Kurita was 82 when he fought during the Battle of Luthien, Morgan Kell was 66 while fighting on Luthien. These and others are driving complicated machines of war at advanced ages on the front lines with little loss of skill, most people now tend to get nervous seeing some one at those ages driving a car. As for the general population basic necessities to survive had become hard to get and that much advanced medical technology had been lost so the life span had dropped vastly from what was common during the Star League.

Edited by WraithTR1, 27 May 2012 - 11:10 PM.

[Ubermunkey]

You know, I can kind of buy Comstar keeping quiet for generations on Terra. Presumably, nobody made it onto Terra without their permission. As for WOB, that too makes a certain amount of sense. Thomas Marik took in WOB and worked with them. Presumably, the (Fake) Thomas turned a blind eye to their activities. Consider what the Free World's League domain looks like post Jihad. FUBAR. WOB was basically a powderkeg that the dissolution of the new Star League caused. What really really gets me is the Dark Ages crap. You mean to tell me that some party quietly moved across the Inner Sphere, across thousands of thousands of worlds. And in let's say one months time, sabotaged or completely destroyed whole HPGs, or critical replacement parts for them. And also throughout Clan space.....

[HanaYuriko]

Arctic Fox, on 27 May 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

There's a scene line that is in JHS:3076, just a bit after the Ghost Bears are handed the Wolverine report in the The Blake Documents. All it really does is imply that they are searching for Wolverine DNA, though, not that they actually find it.

A rare instance of clever writing, I suppose. It lets the reader make their own connections.

[Arctic Fox]

Ubermensch, on 28 May 2012 - 12:51 AM, said:

What really really gets me is the Dark Ages crap. You mean to tell me that some party quietly moved across the Inner Sphere, across thousands of thousands of worlds. And in let's say one months time, sabotaged or completely destroyed whole HPGs, or critical replacement parts for them. And also throughout Clan space.....

Nope. In A Bonfire of Worlds it's revealed that the apparent cause of the Blackout is not direct attacks but active interference in hyperspace, most likely caused by an SHPG (or a bunch of them), which fries the HPGs as soon as they go online. The effect has obvious gaps where there are still functioning HPGs, so I'm assuming the actual attacks on stations were probably limited to only those who wouldn't have been effected by it.

[Xaks]

My owie was always the Suns & Commonweatlh 'joining up'. Those two were already too powerful for their britches, and then you combine them?

I'm surprised it lasted as long as it did. Of course, seeing the ****-storm that erupted once it fell and those leaders passed away is a surprie to NOone....

[Stern ES]

Alright, I realized a lot of this is more lore related and ripped it from my most hated character post.......

Candace Liao for not shooting Sun-Tzu in the face. That whole bit never made sense to me. Always reminded me in stories when the villain says they will act good after being defeated, hero lets them go because they are the "good guy", villain goes back to being evil and kills heros friend/ally. That was such an implausiable stupid decision I couldn't get over.

Sun-Tzu - Machiavellian super genius, yet so blatantly obvious he wasn't stupid. The whole ***** act didn't work on paper, I couldn't imagine anyone but naive *** Victor buying it. He was not a bad character, but I hated that bit of the write up on him, and coupled with the dumb decision NOT to kill him, certainly felt silly at times.

Hated that they named the guy who would go to Clan Wolf, Phelan. Reminds me of Harry Potter where they named the werewolf guy Lupin. A bit heavy handed on the foreshadowing. Why Morgan Kell didn't let Phelan kill Katherine is beyond me. Seriously pissed me. "Oh hey, I know you killed my wife, but we need evidence.....".

Katherine - Her evil planning didn't make any sense. If she really wanted Victor dead, they couldn't arrange a training accident? Some misfire by a Lyran who shoots him in the cockpit. In the end, instead of being some mastermind, she comes off as a brat who can barely see two moves down the road, and really seems pretty dim and petty. Also, why the hell does no one just send an assassin and kill her? All we hear about is how awful she is, everyone knows, borrow some Spirit Cat assassins and buy Hohiro some sake after it is over. I just felt like she was plot armored for no reason. Instead, didn't they send some after Lincoln Osis IIRC? Also, what is with the dues ex machina of Vlad showing up to take her? Plus why would they use HER genetics with Victor's?

The whole FedCom Civil War, and the way it was done. Just because the masses of people are foolish enough to believe the media, doesn't mean the military commanders are. That was all pretty bizarre. Then everyone gets dragged into the fight. Then Victor wins (big surprise) and leaves rule to Peter and the ***** Yvonne, who was so beyond stupid it was unimaginable to begin with. How does that make sense?

Then the whole time they are trying to find "evidence" that Katherine was responable, find the guy that knew what happened Sven Newmark, and then A) let him get killed and B: decide their still isn't enough evidence. What the hell!?!? Didn't Victor use the Dancing Joker to go assassinate Ryan Steiner? Yet, despite knowing that his sister was evil, he dicks around.

Who cares if people think you killed her. Make it look like you didn't. They have to have proof. I am come on. It got so ridiculous with Victor trying to be a neutral ***** it hurt.

Edited by Stern ES, 28 May 2012 - 07:09 AM.

[Tsula]

Stern ES, on 27 May 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

You picked some of the longest living people in the era. I'm well aware of the anamolies, but MOST didn't seem to live past what they do now. How many old friends were around with Victor? Not only that, but people were described much as they are now, "aged" by 50-60's. You can't tell me people don't look younger now than they did 30 years ago at the same age.

In a 1,000 years people can't last a couple decades longer on average? All that technology and people still die roughly when they do now? I find that hard to believe. Hell, the clans can RE-GROW limbs, but they can't extend your life? Everyone looks ancient by 50's-60's.

Hanse Davion - Age: 69
Allesandro Steiner - Age: 74
Theodore Kurita - Age: 73
Jasmine Liao - Age: 47
Maximilian Liao - Age 72
Sun-Tzu Liao - Age 82 (I'm not sure of his COD)
Yvonne Davion - Age 72

I can play the same game showing the lower limits as you did the upper. Remember, the people we are interacting with are also the elite, with better access to everything. Food, healthcare, experimental systems, expendable income to spend on products that will keep them young.

If THEY aren't living that much longer, it is a bit odd. Even the people you mentioned haven't exceeded earth's longest living people.

Some of the one's you mentioned died because of well outside influence
Maximilian Liao - Age 72 Assassination by his daughter's assassin.
Hanson Davion -Age 69 Heart Attack um the man was a ox something fishy there. Also he led a stressful, and rough life that takes a toll
Sun-Tzo Liao- Age 82 Nation sealed records can not let me discuss his death. Plus given the track record of family killing family to gain the throne I think its pretty sure bet Assassination.
Theodore Kurita - Age: 73 Um stress lots of it from within the Combine and from the outside. Stroke killed him.
Jasmine Liao - Age: 47 Not really that popular with other political powers with and out side her realm, and well do I have to say the 2nd and 3rd Time of Tribulation. Lot of enemies out there. Natural causes my butt.
Alessandro Steiner - Age: 74 On July 22 3007, Alessandro Steiner "retired" in favor of Katrina Steiner after losing the support of the Estates General, the Lyran public, and the high command. Following that, he attempted multiple assassination attempts on Katrina. Humm I think he was finally taken out by assassination good bet ya.
Yvonne Davion - Age 72 check your math Born 2963 Death3055 that's a age of 92.
Now if ya ment Yvonne Steiner-Davion: its un known when, or how her death took place or if she is even dead. Her son Harrison was killed by his own son at the age of 65 thou. Caleb is a little crazy.


Even with all the advance in medical tech life in stress and battle can kill you out of know where, plus we really don't know the avg life span considering all the Session Wars it could have lowered it, and in that case. That is why the number are still low. Either way it can be argued many ways. Lets agree to disagree on this one.

[Haakon Valravn]

The loss of technology and the associated excuse of ROM's 100% success rate.

In real life, covert operations rarely go entirely to plan. And when they do, it's more dumb blind luck than anything. And just as often as that dumb, blind luck smiles on the covert operators, it also frowns on them. ROM would not have been as successful as they apparently were and subsequently, with the Ares Conventions, ComStar would rapidly find every Successor State turning on them. They made themselves redundant and offended everybody by killing their best and brightest.

The religiosity of ComStar and the Word of Blake doesn't make any sense, either.

Oh. And hands on 'Mechs. And melee weapons. We've spent billions of C-bills developing the Penultimate King of the Battlefield, in an age when humanity can travel hundreds of lightyears in the blink of an eye, and now we're going to arm them with swords and axes! And rather than spending time and money to improve the targeting computer, we're going to waste time and energy developing a computer program to mime the impossibly fine delicate motorskill of the human hand, so that instead of punch the enemy with a hyper-sonic gauss slug, like you should, you can put your multi-million C-bill machine into a knife fight (the golden rule of knife fights is this: No one wins a knife fight).

[Stern ES]

tsula, on 28 May 2012 - 07:22 AM, said:

Some of the one's you mentioned died because of well outside influence
Maximilian Liao - Age 72 Assassination by his daughter's assassin.
Hanson Davion -Age 69 Heart Attack um the man was a ox something fishy there. Also he led a stressful, and rough life that takes a toll
Sun-Tzo Liao- Age 82 Nation sealed records can not let me discuss his death. Plus given the track record of family killing family to gain the throne I think its pretty sure bet Assassination.
Theodore Kurita - Age: 73 Um stress lots of it from within the Combine and from the outside. Stroke killed him.
Jasmine Liao - Age: 47 Not really that popular with other political powers with and out side her realm, and well do I have to say the 2nd and 3rd Time of Tribulation. Lot of enemies out there. Natural causes my butt.
Alessandro Steiner - Age: 74 On July 22 3007, Alessandro Steiner "retired" in favor of Katrina Steiner after losing the support of the Estates General, the Lyran public, and the high command. Following that, he attempted multiple assassination attempts on Katrina. Humm I think he was finally taken out by assassination good bet ya.
Yvonne Davion - Age 72 check your math Born 2963 Death3055 that's a age of 92.
Now if ya ment Yvonne Steiner-Davion: its un known when, or how her death took place or if she is even dead. Her son Harrison was killed by his own son at the age of 65 thou. Caleb is a little crazy.


Even with all the advance in medical tech life in stress and battle can kill you out of know where, plus we really don't know the avg life span considering all the Session Wars it could have lowered it, and in that case. That is why the number are still low. Either way it can be argued many ways. Lets agree to disagree on this one.

However, last time I checked a stroke IS a natural cause. I don't know if you meant it that way or not, but it certainly didn't sound that way.

I like how every natural cause is an assassination in your mind. Hanse, Sun Tzu, Jasmine, Alessandro, all probably assassinated per you Actually, and I recalled something about this late last evening, Alessandro took a dose of radiation and that is why he would die. I bet Joshua Marik was assassinated by Victor too, right? Something was fishy with him dieing in his youth!

By the way, Yvonne Davion died in 3035, per Sarna. Perhaps YOU, should go and check your math. "Yvonne died in 3035 at her office in the Fox's Den."

We can agree to disagree here on the "should they live longer bit". Let's gloss over that. I still have a hard time seeing people look like my grandmother at age 50, which seems bizarre. Even so, I still think it is odd in general but we don't really know, so I will let it go. We've talked it out enough.