182 replies to this topic

[GreyGriffin]

I'm going to go a little off the rails here and say... the average population of a given planet.

The idea that something like two dozen walking tanks can land on a planet with a population ranging from millions to billions, and then conquering them stretches incredulity pretty far. This would make sense if most planets had populations ranging from twenty to a hundred thousand. I could see a House's capital world ranging upwards into the hundred million to one billion range, given several centuries of population and immigration.

However, canon values have most major worlds exceeding earth's population. With the easy availability of infantry portable weapons capable of damaging battlemechs (anti-materiel rifles and shoulder-fired missile launchers), to say nothing of a preponderance of conventional armored assets (even the dumpiest world has a Vedette and a few 'Mechbusters), the idea of a Company against The World, whatever that world may be, makes the whole latter Succession Wars era seem genuinely silly.

[GreyGriffin]

Regarding the loss of technology - right now, as of today, it's estimated that it would take fifteen years of research, development, training, and manufacture to get back to the moon. Something we did in 1969. Imagine being centuries separated from the last ER laser, which might use materials that are no longer manufactured which are refined using a process that's no longer used, using equipment that doesn't exist anymore, from a mineral that's no longer mined, just to break the "Large Laser Barrier," and create a new type of laser lens, that might have existed in a few combat battlemechs that were stolen by Kerensky.

And that's not even considering the other physical needs of the device, and, not least of which, the ability to produce the new weapon on an industrial scale. The Inner Sphere's highest echelons of research and development in almost every house could reproduce Clan quality weaponry as early as 3058, if I recall, but they couldn't produce them in such a way that was practical for special forces use, much less house militaries.

[Paladin1]

GreyGriffin, on 26 May 2012 - 09:56 PM, said:

I'm going to go a little off the rails here and say... the average population of a given planet.

The idea that something like two dozen walking tanks can land on a planet with a population ranging from millions to billions, and then conquering them stretches incredulity pretty far. This would make sense if most planets had populations ranging from twenty to a hundred thousand. I could see a House's capital world ranging upwards into the hundred million to one billion range, given several centuries of population and immigration.

However, canon values have most major worlds exceeding earth's population. With the easy availability of infantry portable weapons capable of damaging battlemechs (anti-materiel rifles and shoulder-fired missile launchers), to say nothing of a preponderance of conventional armored assets (even the dumpiest world has a Vedette and a few 'Mechbusters), the idea of a Company against The World, whatever that world may be, makes the whole latter Succession Wars era seem genuinely silly.

Honestly, if the population numbers were revised downward, almost everything else that makes people go "wait, what?" in Battletech would suddenly make sense. Lack of population would explain the low shipping numbers, the low military to economy ratio, the military size, everything would make sense. About the only thing that wouldn't be fixed would be the hard physics of the game, but that's something that can't be fixed anyway.

[CaveMan]

Agreed.

Besides, how are they supposed to have millions or billions of people after most of the planets have been rendered nigh-unliveable by the violence of the Succession Wars? Radiation everywhere, contaminated soil, most of the old cities are burned out wrecks, rivers and water tables would still be polluted from all the fallout and the fires and chemical spills. And this is the planets that didnt need environmental control systems to remain habitable before the collapse.
You couldn't grow crops outside of a hydroponics lab, you would have to distill the water before drinking or bathing with it, and the infrastructure is basically obliterated so road and rail transport would be a shadow of its former self. And of course, fish stocks and wildlife would be massively depleted. Planets would be importing their food from the relatively well-off planets in the core of each successor state.

[Stern ES]

HanaYuriko, on 26 May 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

The Jihad was an annoyance to me. It's like they just rehashed the entirety of BT lore into a Cliff Notes version turning the Star League into the Republic of the Sphere. If the writing was better (I'm sorry Stackpole, Bills, and Coleman - I'm sure you tried your best), or at least if the plot was better constructed instead of trying to patch up a marketing idea, then it may have been more successful. I understood that the developers tried to reset the universe to make 'mechs kings of the field once again. The rare war machine hidden in a grain silo for a couple of centuries was an intriguing idea.

And then everyone suddenly had full regiments again breaking the original concept.

The one thing I REALLY disliked was how they tied the The Minnesota Tribe/Clan Wolverine to the WoB. Supposedly hiding them on Mars for a couple of centuries and mutating them into cyborgs.

Oh sweet jesus!??! I gave up on the Dark Ages and really don't remember the few books I read. This really happen?

[Arctic Fox]

HanaYuriko, on 26 May 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

The one thing I REALLY disliked was how they tied the The Minnesota Tribe/Clan Wolverine to the WoB. Supposedly hiding them on Mars for a couple of centuries and mutating them into cyborgs.

You do know that that the Wolverine/Blake conspiracy pretty amounts to an in-universe rumour, right? It's never confirmed, and there's some implication that the whole thing was created by Chandrasekhar Kurita to cause the Ghost Bears to join the offensive against the Word of Blake Protectorate.

[Pyriel Ward]

I got to agree with anyone that was disappointed with the jihad and dark ages time line and definetly mechs over 100 tons.

[Stern ES]

The ages of characters. Seems to still be in line with modern day, not 1,000 years from now. No longer living? Nothing was discovered that would add longevity to your life?

All of that technology and no one, not even the clans seems to be able to get much past 100? Uggg.

Edited by Stern ES, 27 May 2012 - 11:17 AM.

[Easy 8]

The Clans being so ahead as far as research and development go. Warfare generally promotes accelerated research as far as weapon's development, and the Clans, who left the Inner Sphere with no production facilities and just the tech that they took with them should have had a hard time developing even twentieth century technology, not to mention the creative stifiling that goes on in a caste society. And for the justification of "they weren't at war the whole time blowing up production facilities", then why isn't Comstar using all Clan tech weaponry? They were never in any protracted wars like the Successor States. They veiled the existence of entire divisions of mechs, and they didn't think they could hide a production facility or two? And no matter if the IS does create some new weapon that is better than what the Clanners have (Rotary Autcannons), the Clans will one up it because someone at Catalyst says so. Imagine the Clanners' conversation after getting ahold of the RAC...

Clanner 1: How does this technology work?
Clanner 2: I don't know. We're from the same genetic stock and were raised in the same sibko. Our life experiences are identical. If you don't know how to do it, then how would I?
Clanner 1: Oh, yeah, right...we might as well be identical twins.
Clanner 3: What are you guys talking about?
Clanner 2: Oh, well just the fact that as a society we have the collective creativity of a nest of ants.
Clanner 3: Oh right, we are pretty useless and backwards. It's amazing we have succedded as much as we have. Excpet for Clan Smoke Jaguar, they all died.
Clanner 1: Right let's hope that the New Star League doesn't figure out that they can destroy us all in that fashion.
Clanner 2: Especially Clans like Jade Falcon with their strict adherence to our completely stupid and anti-Star Leauge code of Honor.

Pretty much everything after 3050 is devoid of commons sense.

Edited by Easy 8, 27 May 2012 - 10:41 AM.

[Tsula]

Enaris, on 26 May 2012 - 06:16 AM, said:

In the spirit on the topics on favorite and least favorite BT/MW Char, here's one for you.

What bit of the BT/MW story always rubbed you the wrong way?

For me, it was always ComStar. I mean, they're like AT&T (pre mid 70's breakup), but they're a religion too. Oh, and by the way, they actually have a huge army they've never really let anyone know about. An army that uses the tech that everyone else has lost. Oh, about that army? Despite the fact that it's never been in a bigger battle than a lance or two pounding on pirates, just happens to stomp the daylights out of Seven Clans at one time.

You'll recall thou that ComGuard had advanced tech. Plus they had the advantage of learning the clans flaws 1st before a fight. Given this info a unit that can use the weakness of another force can win. The clans showed up in 3049 the Battle of Tukayyid was in 3052. That is three years to learn how to beat them, Plus a great leader of that army Anastasius Focht. The only clan to win really was Clan Wolf why they changed their tactics.

[Arctic Fox]

Easy 8, on 27 May 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

And no matter if the IS does create soem new weapon that is better than what the Clanners have (Rotary Autcannons) the clans will one up it because someone at Catalyst says so.

Actually, the Clan version of the RAC is notably worse than the Inner Sphere version...

EDIT: Ah, whoops, it does have better range, which I didn't know about. It's still bulkier, though.

Edited by Arctic Fox, 27 May 2012 - 10:44 AM.

[Tsula]

Easy 8, on 27 May 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

The Clans being so ahead as far as research and development go. Warfare generally promotes accelerated research as far as weapon's development, and the Clans, who left the Inner Sphere with no production facilities and just the tech that they took with them should have had a hard time developing even twentieth century technology, not to mention the creative stifiling that goes on in a caste society. And for the justification of "they weren't at war the whole time blowing up production facilities", then why isn't Comstar using all Clan tech weaponry? They were never in any protracted wars like the Successor States. They veiled the existence of entire divisions of mechs, and they didn't think they could hide a production facility or two? And no matter if the IS does create some new weapon that is better than what the Clanners have (Rotary Autcannons), the Clans will one up it because someone at Catalyst says so. Imagine the Clanners' conversation after getting ahold of the RAC...

Clanner 1: How does this technology work?
Clanner 2: I don't know. We're from the same genetic stock and were raised in the same sibko. Our life experiences are identical. If you don't know how to do it, then how would I?
Clanner 1: Oh, yeah, right...we might as well be identical twins.
Clanner 3: What are you guys talking about?
Clanner 2: Oh, well just the fact that as a society we have the collective creativity of a nest of ants.
Clanner 3: Oh right, we are pretty useless and backwards. It's amazing we have succedded as much as we have. Excpet for Clan Smoke Jaguar, they all died.
Clanner 1: Right let's hope that the New Star League doesn't figure out that they can destroy us all in that fashion.
Clanner 2: Especially Clans like Jade Falcon with their strict adherence to our completely stupid and anti-Star Leauge code of Honor.

Pretty much everything after 3050 is devoid of commons sense.

Clans do have RAC but much later , Also the clans did fight amongst themselves and it was not just mechwarriors and their gear in the Great Exodus. You do recall some clans no longer live. Plus you had the Exodus Civil War Aka: Patagon Civil War. Ya they didn't just kick back and have a easy time of things.

Clan Diamond Shark's engineers created their own version of the RAC/5 in 3069.

Edited by tsula, 27 May 2012 - 10:53 AM.

[Tsula]

Stern ES, on 27 May 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

The ages of characters. Seems to still be in line with modern day, not 1,000 years from now. No longer living? Nothing was discovered that would add longevity to your life?

Morgan Kell: Born, 2086 last talked about, 3067 Death: 30?? Age: 81
Victor Ian Steiner- Davion: Born,3030 Death,3134 Age, 104
Phalen Kell: Born,3031 Death had been alluded to as of 3130, no details are known. Age, 99
Anastasius Focht: Born 2972– 3???), It is indicated that he survived to see the end of the Jihad, and aided in the birth of the Republic of the Sphere in 3081. Age, 109

Avg. Life span now is at 78. no matter the tech things are going to ware out and die.

[Stern ES]

tsula, on 27 May 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

Morgan Kell: Born, 2086 last talked about, 3067 Death: 30?? Age: 81
Victor Ian Steiner- Davion: Born,3030 Death,3134 Age, 104
Phalen Kell: Born,3031 Death had been alluded to as of 3130, no details are known. Age, 99
Anastasius Focht: Born 2972– 3???), It is indicated that he survived to see the end of the Jihad, and aided in the birth of the Republic of the Sphere in 3081. Age, 109

Avg. Life span now is at 78. no matter the tech things are going to ware out and die.

You picked some of the longest living people in the era. I'm well aware of the anamolies, but MOST didn't seem to live past what they do now. How many old friends were around with Victor? Not only that, but people were described much as they are now, "aged" by 50-60's. You can't tell me people don't look younger now than they did 30 years ago at the same age.

In a 1,000 years people can't last a couple decades longer on average? All that technology and people still die roughly when they do now? I find that hard to believe. Hell, the clans can RE-GROW limbs, but they can't extend your life? Everyone looks ancient by 50's-60's.

Hanse Davion - Age: 69
Allesandro Steiner - Age: 74
Theodore Kurita - Age: 73
Jasmine Liao - Age: 47
Maximilian Liao - Age 72
Sun-Tzu Liao - Age 82 (I'm not sure of his COD)
Yvonne Davion - Age 72

I can play the same game showing the lower limits as you did the upper. Remember, the people we are interacting with are also the elite, with better access to everything. Food, healthcare, experimental systems, expendable income to spend on products that will keep them young.

If THEY aren't living that much longer, it is a bit odd. Even the people you mentioned haven't exceeded earth's longest living people.

Edited by Stern ES, 27 May 2012 - 12:05 PM.

[DireWolf307]

I never found the lifespan thing to be too unplausable. It's long been rumored that during the height Star Leauge people lived longer. Aleksandr Kerensky lived to be 100 As far as the Clans not living past 60s-70s, that's easily explainable through the Clans "fear" of growing old and the fact that anyone who reaches older ages gets sent out as cannon fodder on practically impossible missions with barely anything to help them. For the Inner Sphere, it's been made clear that life on many planets is not easy by any means. For named characters, how many with short lives died from 1) war 2) political machinations (assasination) 3) some other deus ex machina (health problems from birth, for instance)?

[Stern ES]

DireWolf307, on 27 May 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

I never found the lifespan thing to be too unplausable. It's long been rumored that during the height Star Leauge people lived longer. Aleksandr Kerensky lived to be 100 As far as the Clans not living past 60s-70s, that's easily explainable through the Clans "fear" of growing old and the fact that anyone who reaches older ages gets sent out as cannon fodder on practically impossible missions with barely anything to help them. For the Inner Sphere, it's been made clear that life on many planets is not easy by any means. For named characters, how many with short lives died from 1) war 2) political machinations (assasination) 3) some other deus ex machina (health problems from birth, for instance)?

The Clans due to the stigma of getting old is understood.

Those characters I listed all died of natural/health causes. Hanse and Theodore of a stroke. Jasmine and Yvonne while working in their office. Max ...okay...Max did kill himself. Sun-Tzu I believe died due to natural causes.

"The maximum (recorded) life span for humans has increased from 103 in 1798 to 110 years in 1898, 115 years in 1990, and 122.45 years since Calment's death in 1997"

Now granted these are the MAX, but eventually the median slides upward as well. In 200 years I wouldn't be surprised if we were up to 90 being the average lifespan.

Edited by Stern ES, 27 May 2012 - 12:30 PM.

[HanaYuriko]

Stern ES, on 27 May 2012 - 08:38 AM, said:

Oh sweet jesus!??! I gave up on the Dark Ages and really don't remember the few books I read. This really happen?

Jihad Secrets: The Blake Documents.

Arctic Fox, on 27 May 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

You do know that that the Wolverine/Blake conspiracy pretty amounts to an in-universe rumour, right? It's never confirmed, and there's some implication that the whole thing was created by Chandrasekhar Kurita to cause the Ghost Bears to join the offensive against the Word of Blake Protectorate.

There are a few other references where members of Clan Ghost Bear did DNA testing on killed Blake Domini to confirm their suspicions. From what read into it, the DNA confirmed the rumors.

Stern ES, on 27 May 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

If THEY aren't living that much longer, it is a bit odd. Even the people you mentioned haven't exceeded earth's longest living people.

There is some canon lore (I forget where) that there was a medical procedure developed during the first Star League/Golden Era where people could live in excess of 200 years. However a lot of people saw this as unnatural and preferred to live a normal existence.

Edited by HanaYuriko, 27 May 2012 - 12:53 PM.

[GreyGriffin]

The other thing to remember about anti-aging technology is that, while it might not extend maximum lifespan, it sure seems to extend the physical and mental peak of battletech characters.

[Stahlseele]

The Clans.
No, i REALLY don't like them . .

The Inter Clan WARS OF REAVENING . . WHAT THE HELL?
But i have complained about that one enough i think . .

The Jiihaad!
Yes, same reason why i thought it was a cheap idea in SR4 too . . because it is . .

[CaveMan]

We don't even know if average life spans can be significantly extended in real life.

The reason average lifespan was so short in ancient times is due to all the people who died as children or young adults, due to disease, injury, malnutrition, etc. If you survived to your 20s in ancient times you were just as likely to live into your 70s as you are today. A number of people are in the historical record as living into their 90s or 100s. People weren't just keeling over at 46.

In modern times the average is much higher because we've almost eliminated infant mortality in first-world countries. The idea of a family having 8 kids and only 3 of them growing up is unthinkable to us now.

Besides, even if they did discover life-extension technology in BTU, it's gone by now. The Clans have no interest in preserving it since they prefer to be dead before they're 50, and ComStar was only able to preserve a little of the Star League's technology (and they didn't develop new technology because their mindset was entirely about preserving and worshipping lostech).