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Why Cant This Game Have Respawns?


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#221 Dayuhan

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:47 AM

View PostCypherHalo, on 25 January 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:


I'm sorry, but why are we so intent on punishing players? Games should be about having fun. R&R should add to the fun of a game, not be a punitive measure. Personally, I do think R&R can make the game more interesting, the problem was how they implemented it. Since it drained away your c-bills, I just came to resent the R&R costs. I felt like I was getting punished every time my hard-earned money went to R&R costs, especially if you were driving a Heavy or an Assault. You could practically lose your whole earnings. I mean, jeez, are Assault mechs never supposed to die?


Unfortunately the R&R debate heralds all the way back to Pre-Closed-Beta times. On the one side you have the BattleTech fans who cut their teeth on the Board Game and earlier versions of MechWarrior and on the other hand you have the new players who only know it is a game about fighting robots. R&R is not meant to be a punishment, however that is how a lot of new players have come to view it. This comes down to How players view this game:

Battletech fans know a least a bit about the background of this game. They dream of being able to step in to the story about the Inner Sphere Succession Wars (and the imminent Clan invasion of the Inner Sphere). The 'mechs in Battletech are very expensive war machines that usually only the great Houses could afford to field in large numbers. First lets take a look at the total 'mech production of House Marik (Free Worlds League) for one year - this is taken from the House Marik sourcebook - ready for it? 500 'mechs TOTAL were produced each year.

Only a few Mecenary units could afford to field a full Regiment (108) of 'mechs, most of the smaller Mercenary units had a Batallion (36) or less, and these 'mechs had to last because production could not keep up with combat losses. Often a 'mechwarrior who survived the loss of his or her 'mech joined the disgraced ranks of the Dispossessed - a few notables covered in the books went through a lot of trials to get a 'mech back (by taking someone elses).

So the fans are looking at a Battletech game where Battlemechs are rare, expensive, machines. Often the objective is not to destroy the enemy 'mech because you need all the parts you can salvage from it to keep your own 'mech in operation - or better yet repair the damaged enemy 'mech to add to your own numbers. In short the expensive R&R is a reflection of how valuable the Battlemechs really are to a combat unit.

Now we come to the new player. Most new players come from games where most of the resources in the game are readily available and quite cheap. For example in Battlefield 3 if you need more ammunition just find a friendly support player and they will drop you an ammo box free of charge, need healing find a medic. In short resources are not an issue because they are free or very inexpensive to acquire. So the very thing that the fan is looking for in this game the new player sees as a punishment.

Now that more games are choosing the Free-to-Play model the resource expense is going to become a staple of the F2P game. MWO is not the first and certainly will not be the last to use this method for modeling the economy of the game - and for a F2P game that is how it should be.

#222 Roughneck45

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:48 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 25 January 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

How do you go about acquiring tickets? Is there a bonus for not using said tickets?

Depends how they wanted to implement it. There are a couple of ways.

Each team starts with the same size pool of tickets. That amount, could be equally distributed amongst the team, and then they use their share for their own respawns, or, the team total could be shared amongst the entire team, meaning a bad player that has to respawn a lot would drain your tickets.

If you had tickets remaining, they could give you extra c-bills like salvage, or something similar.

Edited by Roughneck45, 25 January 2013 - 11:50 AM.


#223 Mechwarrior Buddah

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:49 AM

View PostHeinreich, on 25 January 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:


Thats not respawn. Thats a bunch of other people replacing the people who died ahead of them. If you were to implement this in game, it would mean another player (a DIFFERENT player) being released onto the field of battle whenever someone dies. A different player, with a different loadout, and more importantly, different skillsets and no prior knowledge of the battlefield's current status.


Thay could impliment this mode too. Call it "meatgrinder mode" for real in game reinforcements. I think that would be bad *** actually

#224 Thirdstar

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:49 AM

View PostMechwarrior Buddah, on 25 January 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:


team a has 300 "tickets"
team b has 250 "tickets"
a kill = 1 ticket
the team to get to 0 loses

usually used in games where they cant put a crapload of guys onscreen at once to simulate massive battles


The ticket system has plenty of elements that can be tweaked to fit the slower flow of battle in MWO.

#225 CygnusX7

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:49 AM

You do get respawns. The next match.

#226 Mechwarrior Buddah

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:50 AM

View PostThirdstar, on 25 January 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:


The ticket system has plenty of elements that can be tweaked to fit the slower flow of battle in MWO.


I was trying for a simple explanation as he'd never seen it
I may actually go to the suggestion forums with that "meatgrinder mode" idea...

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 25 January 2013 - 11:51 AM.


#227 Thirdstar

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:51 AM

View PostRoughneck45, on 25 January 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

Depends how they wanted to implement it. There are a couple of ways.

Each team starts with the same size pool of tickets. That amount, could be equally distributed amongst the team, and then they use their share for their own respawns, or, the team total could be shared amongst the entire team, meaning a bad player that has to respawn a lot would drain your tickets.

If you had tickets remaining, they could give you extra c-bills like salvage, or something similar.


I like that last idea.

#228 Heinreich

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:51 AM

View PostMechwarrior Buddah, on 25 January 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:




thank you for that example

And constantly repeating "Whats wrong with adding options" while ignoring the actual argument and not providing a rebuttal... isnt?

#229 Thirdstar

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:55 AM

View PostHeinreich, on 25 January 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

And constantly repeating "Whats wrong with adding options" while ignoring the actual argument and not providing a rebuttal... isnt?


You better damn well delete your mech and your account on death if the hardcore crux of your argument is realism.

Your argument that Mechwarrior games don't have respawns is also spurious. I refer you to MW3 and 4 and MW:LL

Edited by Thirdstar, 25 January 2013 - 11:57 AM.


#230 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:57 AM

Why would team A get more than team B? Is it due to experience?

TT broke up large battles into several smaller scenarios and during WWEvents certain regions had certain portions of the greater battle. This would/could cancel a need for a ticket system.Several of the Events I ran as a Commando were set up that way. Trial of retribution and Lawyers Guns & Money were two of the bigger events that did this. The data was then collected, tabulated, and then the after action report was published in the appropriate sourcebook.

instead of respawning in the battle you just died in, would you folks consider respawning in a whole new drop with other ticket holders while the original drop is playing out? Or would that be to complicated?

#231 xRaeder

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:58 AM

View PostBuzzkillin, on 25 January 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

With having limited lives people play more carefully. If we had respawns, people would just run in, shoot, die, respawn, shoot, die, and rinse and repeat. With the current system and future dropship mode, you have a limited number of lives. So you will try to live through of match and play more careful. a-s-s-e-s-s the situation, think about your next move, etc.


This has been debunked so many times it isn't funny anymore.

And by the way. What do you think you are currently doing. You play for 10 minutes. Die... play again... how is that any different than what we'll have with respawns.

Edited by xRaeder, 25 January 2013 - 12:00 PM.


#232 Heinreich

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:59 AM

View PostMechwarrior Buddah, on 25 January 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:


Thay could impliment this mode too. Call it "meatgrinder mode" for real in game reinforcements. I think that would be bad *** actually


I think this makes more sense here in mwo as opposed to straight up respawn. It would probably be great in a corp vs corp setting.

#233 xRaeder

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:59 AM

View PostHeinreich, on 25 January 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

And constantly repeating "Whats wrong with adding options" while ignoring the actual argument and not providing a rebuttal... isnt?


Concerns against adding respawns have been refuted and demonstrated to be wrong by me and others as far back as August 2012. Give it up.

#234 Thirdstar

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:01 PM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 25 January 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

Why would team A get more than team B? Is it due to experience?

TT broke up large battles into several smaller scenarios and during WWEvents certain regions had certain portions of the greater battle. This would/could cancel a need for a ticket system.Several of the Events I ran as a Commando were set up that way. Trial of retribution and Lawyers Guns & Money were two of the bigger events that did this. The data was then collected, tabulated, and then the after action report was published in the appropriate sourcebook.

instead of respawning in the battle you just died in, would you folks consider respawning in a whole new drop with other ticket holders while the original drop is playing out? Or would that be to complicated?


As the system stands in MWO (Lack of CW) both teams should probably get equal number of tickets.

In the future, number of tickets can be tied to the unit being fielded and/or the resources available on planet or in orbit.

#235 Heinreich

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:01 PM

View PostThirdstar, on 25 January 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:


You better damn well delete your mech and your account on death if the hardcore crux of your argument is realism.

Your argument that Mechwarrior games don't have respawns is also spurious. I refer you to MW3 and 4 and MW:LL


Because turning this game into another BF3 clone with robot skins would be so much better.

#236 Mechwarrior Buddah

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:01 PM

View PostHeinreich, on 25 January 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

And constantly repeating "Whats wrong with adding options" while ignoring the actual argument and not providing a rebuttal... isnt?


Ive been doing that? please provide me with a series of quotes. I wanna see where I did

also; http://mwomercs.com/...atgrinder-mode/

lol

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 25 January 2013 - 12:02 PM.


#237 Roughneck45

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:02 PM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 25 January 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

Why would team A get more than team B? Is it due to experience?

No. His explanation was poor IMO, or at least he envisioned something different.

What im referring to, the ticket system is the actual gamemode, not something you have outside of it. Each team has an equal pool representing their reinforcements, and each time a player respawns he uses a certain amount of tickets. The game is won when one side can no longer spawn any mechs.

#238 Thirdstar

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:03 PM

View PostHeinreich, on 25 January 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

Because turning this game into another BF3 clone with robot skins would be so much better.


Yes I want to turn the game into a BF3 clone. How did you find out about my secret plan? I'll surely have to have you killed now.

#239 Heinreich

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:04 PM

View PostxRaeder, on 25 January 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:


Concerns against adding respawns have been refuted and demonstrated to be wrong by me and others as far back as August 2012. Give it up.


Because you're some sort of expert on gamer behavior, and I should take your word for it just because you say so? Show me your data. Show me your studies. Show me your methodolgy.

View PostMechwarrior Buddah, on 25 January 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:


Ive been doing that? please provide me with a series of quotes. I wanna see where I did

also; http://mwomercs.com/...atgrinder-mode/

lol

Not you, the guy you quoted/original poster (poopy joe). Thats all he did on the first page.

#240 Mechwarrior Buddah

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:05 PM

View PostRoughneck45, on 25 January 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

No. His explanation was poor IMO, or at least he envisioned something different.

What im referring to, the ticket system is the actual gamemode, not something you have outside of it. Each team has an equal pool representing their reinforcements, and each time a player respawns he uses a certain amount of tickets. The game is won when one side can no longer spawn any mechs.


my explanation was what Ive seen IN those types of games. I almost never see an even force of tickets attacking an even force of tickets, particularly in BF1942





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