78 replies to this topic

[Strum Wealh]

DocBach, on 27 January 2013 - 10:21 PM, said:

I'm going to throw this description in there:

(Technical Readout: 3050 Revised, pg 196)
"The Guardian emits a broad-band signal that interferes with all sonar, radar, UV, IR, and magscan sensors, thus protecting all units in a radius of up to 180 meters by projecting a "cloak" to its enemies. Enemy long-range sensors can find vehicles and 'Mechs within the curtain, but the Guardian obscures the reading and prevents identification. By the time the enemy enters visual range, sensors can sometimes override the jamming, but by this time most pilots rely on their own eyes to track the opposition."

Because the rule sets in all the various editions fail to mention how Streak Missiles or LRM's -- LRM's are only mentioned in conjunction with Artemis and Narc which say they function normally against ECM, only the Artemis and Narc is negated -- have any altered capability against a 'Mech in an ECM bubble I would say that it would be a fair compromise to allow targets in the bubble to be targeted, just unidentifiable - no target data, no chassis designation, not even a alphanumeric designation, unless a spotter has visual line of sight on them.

Actually, the advanced combat rules in Tactical Operations, together with the basic rules in Total Warfare, provide for strong direct effects by ECM against a BattleMech's radar system.

From Total Warfare, page 134:

• "An ECM suite has an effect radius of six hexes that creates a “bubble” around the carrying unit. The ECM’s disruptive abilities affect all enemy units inside this bubble, as well as any line of sight traced through the bubble. It has no effect on units friendly to the unit carrying the ECM."
  
• "In the ECM diagram, the ’Mech in Hex A on the Open Terrain #1 map is equipped with an ECM suite, which has an effect radius of six hexes (shown as the shaded area). The suite affects any enemy unit in this area or any enemy LOS traced through it. The ’Mech in Hex B is affected because it falls inside the effect radius. A shot from Hex C to Hex D would also be affected because LOS passes through the radius. A shot from Hex C to Hex E would not be affected because LOS does not pass through the radius."

(It should be noted that neither the 'Mech in Hex C nor the vehicle in Hex D are actually inside the ECM's effect radius, but the shot from C (an enemy to the ECM carrier in Hex A) to D is still affected because the line-of-sight/line-of-fire still passes through the ECM's effect bubble.)

From Tactical Operations, page 222:
"The ranges of various electronic sensor systems appear in the Sensor Range Table, p. 222. To make a Sensor Check, the player rolls 2D6. A result of 7 or 8 means the sensor detects any unit within its short range. A result of 5 or 6 means the sensor detects units out to its medium range. A result of 2 to 4 means the sensor detects units out to its long range. A roll of 9 to 12 means the sensor failed to detect any units. Remember that a spotting unit may use only one type of sensor per turn, which is declared to the gamemaster at the start of the turn (see p. Initiative Phase, p. 221)."

From Tactical Operations, page 224:
"In the double-blind game, all ECM and stealth systems modify the die roll results of spotting units attempting to detect an enemy unit equipped with such an ECM system. Because different ECM/stealth systems have different effects against different probes and sensors, the modifiers vary depending on the spotting unit’s probe/sensor and the enemy unit’s ECM system. These modifiers appear in the ECM/Stealth Modifier Table. Once the sensor detection dice roll has been made (including adding any bonus modifiers from the controlling player’s side), the player consults the ECM/Stealth Modifier Table and adds the applicable modifier to the roll result."

The ECM/Stealth Modifier Table, from page 223 of Tactical Operations (presented earlier in this thread):


Note that Guardian ECM adds 5 to the result of a Sensor Roll. If there are no other modifiers in effect, a roll of 4 or more against a Guardian ECM carrier becomes a Sensor Roll result of 9 or more; recall that "a roll of 9 to 12 means the sensor failed to detect any units."
Considering 2D6 probabilities (for the base Sensor Roll), the combined likelihood of a 2 or a 3 is on the order of 8.4%... implying that the likelihood of standard 'Mech radar completely failing to pick up a Guardian ECM carrier (due to a roll of 4 or more, plus Guardian's +5 modifier) is on the order of 91.6%.

Missiles are then affected, as they (unless otherwise noted) are taken to be radar-guided (with a number of alternate LRM/SRM munitions explicitly using different guidance systems); how is the attacking 'Mech (using standard missiles) to get a missile lock, much less expect said missiles to track a would-be target that is equipped with Guardian ECM, when there is an over-ninety-percent likelihood of the would-be target not being detected by the attacker's radar system to begin with?

[Theobald Hauser]

So, basically, MWO Guardian ECM and TT Guardian ECM are close ?

[Bobzilla]

ECM never totally stops a lock on from happening 100% of the time nor does it say that it completly renders SSRMs useless unless in the 20m sweet spot. So in my opinion its completly off from TT.

Going from turn based to real time cause missles in this game to not work like they do in TT, so if thats not taken into consideration when balancing with ECM nothing is going to fit properly. If I get a lock with LRM's in MWO and fire, while in the the air they can lose lock and stop tracking, then even start tracking again. If you get a lock in TT and fire LRMs what happens?

ECM was never designed to totally stop lock on's or detections from happening in TT, just make it more difficult. You could also recive bonuses to hit not just negitives so it wouldn't be impossible.

In TT streaks needed a roll to hit (just roll to lock) making them 'aim' like every other weapon. I don't know how everyone else feels about this but streaks are 100 times easier to hit with than any other weapon. If you take into accout ECM to pertect against them, you'd have to take into acount the Streak carrier that also has ECM to negate.

I also noticed someone saying that if you have are fighting a streak cat, if you couldn't out damage them you could run away from them. This bugged me as there are lots of medium and heavy builds that couldn't out damage them nor could they run away if you take into consideration their alpha always hits and misses happen.

[DocBach]

Amarius, on 28 January 2013 - 05:18 AM, said:

So, basically, MWO Guardian ECM and TT Guardian ECM are close ?

Depends on your definition of TT, and "back to the basics." Tactical Operations, as Sturm explained, was a later expansion ruleset for "Advanced" play (Tournament Legal and a lower level were other levels of play that replaced Levels 1, 2, and 3) that came out that added about 250 pages of rules, most are based on previously established rules from the earlier Maximum Tech, though there are also new rules for newer equipment introduced.

The "basics" of ECM from the original BattleTech Compendium, Master Rules, and Total Warfare all give the ECM module much less power.

Unfortunately, because I don't have Tactical Operations on hand I'm going to quote Maximum Tech about the sensor modifiers you went over, as they originally appeared as part of the double blind ruleset from that manual:

"To be affected, the spotting unit must be in the normal operating radius of the ECM system." (MaximumTech Revised, Pg 54).
Assuming that Tactical Operations kept this rule, ECM should only make it more difficult for detection within the 180 meter bubble it projects. We also have the fact that 'Mechs are suppose to have seismic sensors which detect out to 6 hexes, and are not affected by ECM, meaning that our 'Mech outside the ECM bubble could use normal sensors to detect ECM equipped 'Mechs inside of the bubble, and could use seismic sensors to detect when their standard sensors are disrupted by the ECM modifier when the spotter is in the bubble.

Another thing to consider is that Beagle does provide a little bit of a nullifier for spotting 'Mechs as well, so perhaps a buff against ECM in that department would make it do something in this game.

I think, like how I explained in my post about how the fluff describes it, and how the rules seem to describe it, we should still be able to target 'Mechs shielded by ECM, just not receive data about them. One missing feature to confuse guided missiles ECM needs, however, is a third Ghost Target mode which would place false targets on the enemy sensors that makes it more difficult to target the real, intended target, or even fools the enemy enough to launching salvos against it and planning to maneuver against it.

Edited by DocBach, 28 January 2013 - 08:11 AM.

[Codejack]

Strum Wealh, on 28 January 2013 - 04:59 AM, said:

Missiles are then affected, as they (unless otherwise noted) are taken to be radar-guided

What are you talking about? It explicitly says that they are laser-guided.

[CancR]

I have incited a rules lawyer war. I'm going to squash this beef before in some Beetlejuice fashion Bricky is summoned.

My stance on ECM isn't that its not like TT, but they took the TT rules and added more onto it, combined with the small CoD arena map is not a good translation.

Till we get bigger maps, the bubble should be smaller , ECM should prevent missile lock, it should just make it longer to lock on, And some other stuff I cant think of at the moment.

[Theobald Hauser]

DocBach, on 28 January 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

(...)

It was a real question, as it was a brilliant demonstration but without discernible problematics, from my point of view.
So actual MWO rules about ECM are close to Tac Ops one's ? Have to find this one.

[DocBach]

Amarius, on 28 January 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

It was a real question, as it was a brilliant demonstration but without discernible problematics, from my point of view.
So actual MWO rules about ECM are close to Tac Ops one's ? Have to find this one.

Actually, MWO's rules are sort of reversed. Where in MWO we can target ECM 'Mechs when they are in close proximity but cannot target those same 'Mechs at range, which is opposite according to the books rule set, which states the spotting modifiers only affects 'Mechs within the ECM effective range.

So in effect, LRM's and Streaks shouldn't be affected by ECM unless they close directly into the bubble of jamming.

Edited by DocBach, 28 January 2013 - 11:09 AM.

[Theobald Hauser]

You still can bork the detection roll. What we are theoritical doing each time someone is in the stealth bubble.
And as Strum Wealh pointed out, in advanced game terms, we have a 91.6% chance to bork it anyway in TT terms, so 100% is not a big leap given the real time setting.

[DocBach]

Amarius, on 28 January 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

You still can bork the detection roll. What we are theoritical doing each time someone is in the stealth bubble.
And as Strum Wealh pointed out, in advanced game terms, we have a 91.6% chance to bork it anyway in TT terms, so 100% is not a big leap given the real time setting.

Yes, if you are within the 180 meter ECM radius.

[Theobald Hauser]

Maybe I read it wrong twice, where is it said ?

[StalaggtIKE]

CancR, on 26 January 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

ECM will only:
-Negate external electronics (Narc,begal, and tag)
-iIncrease lock-on time (perhaps by 2.5 seconds)
-Have a jamming feature will any amount of other ecm with the radius are jammed.

Simply back to tt basics.

SSRMS
-increase lock on time by 1.5 seconds
-Decrease damage from 2.5 to 2
-Streaks cant fire unless the crosshairs are over the target
-streaks lose their lock if anything ether comes between the cross hairs and the targets or the crosshairs move off the target (The mech, not the very large indicator box)

A very simple tweak to really put the game back on track. How ironic that the simple solution was the table top solution all along.

Not perfect, however better than what we currently have.

[DocBach]

Amarius, on 28 January 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

Maybe I read it wrong twice, where is it said ?

Just checked Tactical Operations. The same rule from Maximum Tech is in fact included on page 224:


"To be affected, the spotting unit must be in the normal operating
radius of the ECM/stealth system (note that stealth systems
only affect the target unit and do not have a radius of effect, and
so are only taken into consideration for the unit mounting that
equipment). LOS does not affect this radius. If a spotting unit is
within the range of multiple ECM systems, combine the effects of
all the ECM systems."

So when making a spotting roll, you add the ECM modifier if you are in the operating range of the ECM. If you are outside of it, the ECM doesn't affect your spotting roll, meaning it doesn't give it a 91% chance of blocking locks unless you are within the 180 meter bubble. Which is sort of the opposite on how it currently works in MWO; you can only lock in inside the bubble currently.

[Theobald Hauser]

You can't lock inside neither. You can between 180m and 200m, 180m and 250m with advanced sensors module.

[DocBach]

By lock on, I mean just simply being able to acquire the target in your targeting computer, or on your sensors.

[Theobald Hauser]

You can't acquire it in targeting computer or on sensor map when in the bubble, they don't work.
You can only between 180m and 200m.

[DocBach]

Which is my point - it should work as normal outside of the bubble (which is 180 meters) completely - the rules state in order to have your sensors confused by ECM the spotter has to be within the 180 meter bubble. How it is currently implemented you can target 'Mechs inside of 200 meters, just lock times take longer to acquire, and LRM's can be subjected to minimum range as they've only got 20 meters to work with to be able to detect, lock, and have the missiles fire outside of their minimum range.

Edited by DocBach, 28 January 2013 - 02:46 PM.

[Theobald Hauser]

You're saying that in TT and potentialy in MWO ECM's use is to make mech stealthed under 180m ?
You need to make spotting checks for huge war machines right in front of you ?

[DocBach]

Amarius, on 28 January 2013 - 03:22 PM, said:

You're saying that in TT and potentialy in MWO ECM's use is to make mech stealthed under 180m ?
You need to make spotting checks for huge war machines right in front of you ?

You can detect units through terrain in the board game double blind rules, there are different rolls for visual spotting targets without involving sensors.

[Strum Wealh]

DocBach, on 28 January 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

Just checked Tactical Operations. The same rule from Maximum Tech is in fact included on page 224:

"To be affected, the spotting unit must be in the normal operating
radius of the ECM/stealth system (note that stealth systems
only affect the target unit and do not have a radius of effect, and
so are only taken into consideration for the unit mounting that
equipment). LOS does not affect this radius. If a spotting unit is
within the range of multiple ECM systems, combine the effects of
all the ECM systems."

So when making a spotting roll, you add the ECM modifier if you are in the operating range of the ECM. If you are outside of it, the ECM doesn't affect your spotting roll, meaning it doesn't give it a 91% chance of blocking locks unless you are within the 180 meter bubble. Which is sort of the opposite on how it currently works in MWO; you can only lock in inside the bubble currently.

Though, that should also have to be compatible with Total Warfare's statement about how ECM "affects any enemy unit in this area or any enemy LOS traced through it".

It also has to account for how, as stated above, "stealth systems only affect the target unit and do not have a radius of effect, and so are only taken into consideration for the unit mounting that equipment"... especially since two of those stealth systems with no radius of effect [NullSig and VoidSig] produce even greater modifiers than Guardian (+6 and +7 respectively, versus Guardian's +5) - powerful enough that TacOps itself states, "only a Bloodhound Active Probe [a more powerful off-shoot of Beagle, analogous to how Angel is a more powerful off-shoot of Guardian] can penetrate the Null-Signature System’s masking" (pg. 336) and "only a Bloodhound probe can penetrate the Void-Signature System’s masking effect. The Watchdog system, Beagle Active Probe and their Clan equivalents may not detect a hidden unit using a Void-Signature System" (pg. 349).

That NullSig and VoidSig can be so effective at avoiding detection while having no effect radius would seem to necessarily imply that the spotter's line-of-sight/line-of-fire is considered "part of" said spotter (as the LOS/LOF would necessarily extend from the spotting unit to within "zero hexes" of the stealthed unit), and is thus subject to those systems' effects.
This is also in-line with the examples of "Hex C vs Hex D" and "Hex C vs Hex E" (none of which lie within the ECM radius generated by the 'Mech in Hex A) in Total Warfare (page 134):

• "A shot from Hex C to Hex D would also be affected because LOS passes through the radius."
  
• "A shot from Hex C to Hex E would not be affected because LOS does not pass through the radius."

So, it would seem that if any part of the spotter (including its LOS/LOF) is "in the normal operating radius of the ECM/stealth system", it would be affected by the ECM Suite in question, while the spotter is unaffected if it (including its LOS/LOF) has absolutely no contact with the ECM bubble.