71 replies to this topic

[Karr285]

Vessiel, on 28 January 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

ppcs aren't completly worthless below 90, their damage is reduced linearly, 90m/10dmg, 80m/9dmg, 70m/8dmg, until below 10m/1dmg. I have an awesome with 4ppcs, if there isn't the risk of overheat and the enemy is half dead i use them below 90m; for example at 40-50m, 4 ppc do 20damage, same as an ac20. Usually they aren't worth using below 30m

Could you source this because I have had experiences that say this is horribly inaccurate, ie Ive stood at 85m away from a 6 ppc stalker in a heavily damaged Cicada, and took 2 alphas before he shutdown, even at 9 damage a peice thats 54 damage x2, I should have been toast, but my internals didn't even go yellow --> red.

So either your Info is wrong or the game has a bug, I going to say since anything past the optimal range up to weapons max is only 1 value ie Med laser past 270 up to 540 is the same damage, that your ppc's are doing probably 1 damage from 89-0 meters

[Bilbo]

Karr285, on 29 January 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

Could you source this because I have had experiences that say this is horribly inaccurate, ie Ive stood at 85m away from a 6 ppc stalker in a heavily damaged Cicada, and took 2 alphas before he shutdown, even at 9 damage a peice thats 54 damage x2, I should have been toast, but my internals didn't even go yellow --> red.

So either your Info is wrong or the game has a bug, I going to say since anything past the optimal range up to weapons max is only 1 value ie Med laser past 270 up to 540 is the same damage, that your ppc's are doing probably 1 damage from 89-0 meters

There is no damage under 90. You light up on his paperdoll but he isn't doing anything to you.

[Trauglodyte]

I don't mind the minimum range on PPCs. Though, it does puzzle me why it remains for the PPC and LRMs and yet is gone for the Gauss Rifle. If nothing else, you'd think that they'd reduce the PPC min by 20m to equalize it (Gauss Rifle had a minimum range of 20m).

[Spheroid]

Actually, the game does have a method of range indication right now. The text of the weapon group goes dark if the target reticle is outside its optimum engagment range.

I don't know if they do this for minimum range as I have never been dumb enough to waste LRMs at close range.

[darkkterror]

I still regularly see people fire their LRMs at point blank, so I think there's an issue with informing players of minimum range period

[xRatas]

Bilbo, on 29 January 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

There is no damage under 90. You light up on his paperdoll but he isn't doing anything to you.

Are you sure? I'm almost certain I have killed mechs below 90m with PPCs. For me, it seems to do only minor damage, but it does something.

I generally always carry 1 ERPPC when running mechs with PPCs to fight anything closer than 90m, but I'm almost 100% sure I've killed mechs with normal PPCs from around 50 meters when they have been almost dead already. (That ERPPC gets blown off every now and then. But I could be wrong too.)

Edited by xRatas, 29 January 2013 - 10:34 AM.

[King Arthur IV]

if only homewreckers stats were official.

[Bilbo]

xRatas, on 29 January 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

Are you sure? I'm almost certain I have killed mechs below 90m with PPCs. For me, it seems to do only minor damage, but it does something.

I generally always carry 1 ERPPC when running mechs with PPCs, but I'm almost 100% sure I've killed mechs with normal PPCs from around 50 meters when they have been almost dead already. (That ERPPC gets blown off every now and then. But I could be wrong too.)

I'm positive. I get up in PPC boat grills every time I play. They do nothing inside 90 except increase the shooter's heat.

[Khobai]

PPC and ER PPC both generate way more heat than they should. If they added the EMP cockput disruption, lowered the heat on the PPC from 9 to 8, and lowered the heat on the ER PPC from 13 to 11... they would be fine.

[Bilbo]

Khobai, on 29 January 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

PPC and ER PPC both generate way more heat than they should. If they added the EMP cockput disruption, lowered the heat on the PPC from 9 to 8, and lowered the heat on the ER PPC from 13 to 11... they would be fine.

So you want the 6PPC Stalker to actually be viable? The only reason they aren't all over the battlefield now, is you can only alpha once in a blue moon.

[Thuzel]

Trauglodyte, on 29 January 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

I don't mind the minimum range on PPCs. Though, it does puzzle me why it remains for the PPC and LRMs and yet is gone for the Gauss Rifle. If nothing else, you'd think that they'd reduce the PPC min by 20m to equalize it (Gauss Rifle had a minimum range of 20m).

The Gauss had a minimum of 60m, not 20. And them leaving that out is more than a little baffling.

[Sir Wulfrick]

NRP, on 28 January 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

I honestly don't get why the PPC has a minimum range at all. Makes no sense to me why an energy particle weapon wouldn't cause full damage at point blank range. I suspect they do it only to differentiate it from the ERPPC. As it stands, both PPCs just aren't viable. The fight never stays long range, so the PPC is basically worthless. The ERPPC is too hot so you can't carry enough of them to matter, so it's basically worthless too.

The cannon answer for the minimum range is that under 90m a hit on a target causes feedback in to the particle accelerator field that can damage the weapon. Therefore a granduated inhibitor field operates between 0 - 90m range to target.

Nothing could be further from the truth about the PPC being ineffective. The PPC does an instant 10 points of damage as opposed to a laser that has to be accurately held against a specific location to have the same effect. Multiple PPC's in conjunction with a suitable shorter-ranged weapon are a fearsome combination. When the EMP effect is eventually added to the PPC it will only become more effective. I do agree though that the ER-PPC generates far too much heat to make it a serious proposition, though it does have it's adherents...

Edited by Sir Wulfrick, 29 January 2013 - 10:47 AM.

[Havyek]

IMO the heat generated by the PPC and ERPPC currently are both fine, ERLLAS could be lowered a bit, but the LPLAS needs its heat lowered and recycle time extended IMO.

Currently I have no problems (or few problems anyway) with 1 or 2 PPCs or even ERPPCs, but lowering the heat too much makes the 6 PPC Stalker either more viable as it can fire more often, or hell people just switch out to ERPPCs so they don't have a minimum range.

[Pihb]

Bilbo, on 29 January 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

So you want the 6PPC Stalker to actually be viable? The only reason they aren't all over the battlefield now, is you can only alpha once in a blue moon.

A viable 6 ppc stalker would be a nightmare. I run 3 ppc's on my k-2, I blow whole sections off mechs. If i had decent aim, i would be deadly in it.

[Trauglodyte]

Thuzel, on 29 January 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

The Gauss had a minimum of 60m, not 20. And them leaving that out is more than a little baffling.

Bleh, I jacked up the quick math. Yes, 60m and not 20m. And yes, still baffling but that goes along with why the Lrg Laser is 9/7 when it was 8/8 in TT. If you wanted to drop the heat on it to stay within the structure of the Small (3/2) and Medium (5/4), why not make it 8/7? Why did they need to add a point of damage? And why is the heat on the ER Lrg 10 instead of 11 when in TT, it was always 4 points hotter than the norm? Lots of boggle in PGI, sometimes.

[Vapor Trail]

Think leaving the Gauss' minimum range out was wierd...

AC/2
AC/5
UAC/5

What about those?

[DDDs]

Bilbo, on 29 January 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

There is no damage under 90. You light up on his paperdoll but he isn't doing anything to you.

They do damage. I've killed stuff in my dual PPC 3D. We can test it tonight if you want.

[Colin Thrase]

Just for the record:

I have used mechs that use only PPCs, and mechs that use only ER PPCs. I prefer the standard PPCs for sniping, because I can keep up a higher rate of fire. Also, the listed range for the PPC is incorrect. I have made kill shots at ranges greater than 450m.

I am fully aware that the PPC has a minimum range, but lacking any other weapon when an opponent is within 90m, and being unable to outrun the opponent, I will happily fire my PPCs because I know they will still shake his cockpit within that range, which will make it harder for him to get a head shot. I will also move my mech's toro side-to-side and up-and-down while I wait for the PPC delay to fire again, also hoping to avoid a head shot. It's better than turning around and getting shot in the back. I figure that if I keep this up, and if anyone responds to my team chat 'stalker needs help F3 vs light', I might survive long enough to continue sniping. My rough estimage is that 1 in 4 games result in getting killed by a light within 90m. Hats off to those players for understanding the minimum 90m range and taking advantage of it.

I accept the risk that comes with running only 4x PPC, because the standard PPC generates a lot less heat per shot than the ER PPC, and still does significant damge. Starting at 0 heat, I can usually fire 13 shots (if all of them are on a chainfire button, holding the fire button down) without overheating. Or, if firing all at 4 at once, I can get 3 salvos without overheating. Then I wait a few seconds for my heat to return to 0, and repeat.

My best game so far with the 4x PPC design was 5 kills 2 assists, all at range. My worst game is 0 kills 0 assists. Obviously the sniper strategy works best when your light mech team-mates watch your back. However, when they don't watch my back, and I get killed by a light, I don't mind. Like I said above, it's a risk I accept. If your team isn't cooperating, then you'd likely have lost the battle anyway.

For the OP: What would you suggeset a mech with only PPCs do when confronted with a light mech within 90m? I will agree that firing until shutdown from overheat is a pretty bad idea, but firing to keep you from shooting accurately is a good idea.

And yes, I have also mixed up the weaponry a bit to help with short range. What I end up with is a Stalker with 2x PPC and 4x SRM-6. The SRM-6 are usually wasted, because nobody wants to get close enough for me to use them, and my long range damage is reduced enough that sniping is no longer as helpful to my teammates. With ony 2x PPC, you're not one-shotting the lights anymore, so after the first shot that connects, they start hiding.

[Solis Obscuri]

ERPPCs are terrible weapons by virtue of producing extremely high heat; in order to make the PPC a worse weapon to make ERPPCs look worthwhile, PGI decided on a bizarre implementation of min range penalties that makes facehugging an Awesome with a Spider a "good idea".

Not, of course, that they bothered with the min range penalties that light autocannons or Gauss Rifles should have...

[Bilbo]

DDDs, on 29 January 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

They do damage. I've killed stuff in my dual PPC 3D. We can test it tonight if you want.

We can do that. Paul just updated the weapon balancing post. PPC's among other things are getting lowered heat generation on the 5th. Say hello to the massive number of ppc stalkers that will follow.