371 replies to this topic

[Wolfways]

Deamhan, on 29 January 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

The K2 should have its ballistic hard point relocated to the arms.

No. If you do that then noone can use the "stock" K2 (or K3)

[Deamhan]

Really? What "stock" is that?

[BillyM]

eaglemaster42, on 29 January 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

The catapult is really just too fragile to stand above the other heavy mechs. The torso twist is a bit ridiculous, but they effectively end up with the same radius that other mechs can fire on due to their arms not being able to move side.

...but how many other mechs have independently-aimed arm-mounted 6x-srm6's?

I will echo what Joseph Nader stated, medium mechs have only their maneuverability as a benefit above the Catapult, and the twist range effectively negates that, having much to do with the Cat being feared and loathed on the battlefield. Maybe like the Stalker, we can also make it vary per chassis variant. Splat gets the greatest reduction, Ac20 close behind, and the other variants following...

Just a thought, but the kind of interesting balance ideas I enjoy hearing about.

Cheers,
--billyM

[eaglemaster42]

Josef Nader, on 29 January 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/#

It has 10 degrees of twist on the Dragon, and 30 on the 'Phract.

Let's also not forget that it can alpha at it's full traverse and land every shot, unlike the Dragon and the 'Phract, who can only land arm-mounted weapons at full traverse.

It also has 20 more points of max armor than the Dragon, while only having 10 fewer points of max armor than the 'Phract. It's no more or less fragile than any of the other Heavies, comparatively.

True, that's the way the numbers are but I seldom see people maxing the armour on cats. In my phract, catapaults feel easy to kill and when I'm in my K2 I find myself avoiding 1 on 1's with phracts since they're able to take me out with a few ac shots to the CT. As far as the dragon goes, I feel like it's really just weak compared to other heavies. It's less armoured and armed than the cat and phract but faster, but not fast enough to make it hard to hit (I feel like medium mechs are in the same boat). The little extra speed will help in urban settings but right now there's only one such map...

to Billy, your thoughts about the mediums makes sense, but I really just feel like medium's speed doesn't make them hard enough to hit in the open regardless of how wide the firing arc. I don't run into much trouble with streak cats since I tend to stay out of srm range so i admit I haven't had any trouble with them. I like the idea of changing the torso twist radius for different variants though

Edited by eaglemaster42, 29 January 2013 - 03:03 PM.

[Baby Bear]

Every mech chasis is going to need every little advantage it can get. Right now we have tunnel vision because we are thinking IS vs IS only. Trust me. You are going to want all the advantages on all the Chassis when the Clan start to Steam Roller through. When you are getting slammed by Clan Lights with Streak SRM6 you are likely to forget all these tiny advantages in the IS mechs. Unless it is -extremely- unbalancing I'm against all IS mech nerfs. The Cat is far from OP and in fact the LRM versions are frequent the main course for Lights regardless of their torso twist.

[Josef Nader]

Again, I don't want to reduce the actual power of the Catapult. It should stay just as powerful, weapon wise, as it is. I don't feel like splat cats, or streak cats, or KC20s or Gaussapults are a problem. I just feel like Cats are a touch -too- good in relation to other heavies and that their huge traverse is a big part of it.

When I spot a 'Phract or Dragon in my Centurion or Hunchback, I feel confident that I can take him on in a close fight simply because I'm so much more maneuverable than they are. Sure, the 'Phract might be able to blast me to bits with a few well placed shots, and the Dragon might be able to match my pace and bring a heavier weapons loadout to bear, but my mediums are more maneuverable than both of those mechs and it feels like a really good fight for position. It's more than a little frustrating to get the drop on a Catapult only to have him turn around and shred me with a weapons loadout that can turn my mech into festive confetti in a single volley. I don't mind it being really scary to be in front of a catapult, I just want to be rewarded for my ability to get behind him.

Edited by Josef Nader, 29 January 2013 - 03:02 PM.

[Cid Slayer]

Catapaults are easier to disarm and easier to headshot than other heavies so you'd have to make the hitboxes smaller if you wanted to 'rebalance' it.

EDIT - and I guess you'd need to give the cat some arm movement too to bring it in line with other heavies.

Edited by Cid Slayer, 29 January 2013 - 03:10 PM.

[Josef Nader]

Yet no other heavy can mount twin AC20s, or 6 SRM6s, or 6 Streaks, and all of these things are -really- powerful, especially combined with a torso traverse that lets them alpha anywhere within a 280 degree arc of their front facing.

[OpCentar]

Catapult is the best Heavy because of the three we have currently available, its the least worst option.


Dragon has too little firepower and that easily destroyed ballistic arm.

Cataphract 4X, the only really interesting variant, is too slow to be fun. 4xLL 3D is fun though


The moment we get a 75t heavy, with a decent hard point layout, I guarantee you people will forget about their 'Cats.

BTW, I run a C1 with 4xMLas and 2xLRM15s+Artemis. Never tried a twin AC/20 'Cat or a Streak/Splat one either. Did run with a Gaussapult during CBT but again found it boring due to the lack of speed. Also, it's a death sentence now with those Gauss rifle nerfs.

So I see no point in nerfing its torso twist range. If you want to do something about it - stop boating by introducing a mechanic to nerf that.

[NKAc Street]

Sorry but its too easy to headshot or center torso core a catapult for it to be considered OP. The only reason someone cant handle an srm boat is because they get in too close. I make that mistake myself in my ac20 cat. All in all in my experience. If i do not use cover and try to evade fire I get killed rather quickly
The cat just isnt that tough.

[Splitpin]

Josef Nader, on 29 January 2013 - 02:21 PM, said:

The complaint is not that the cat is versatile or agile. The complaint is that there really isn't competing with the cat in a heavyweight chassis.

Let's take a look at the Cataphract vs the Catapult in a classic build for both mechs, the twin gauss. For all intents and purposes, the twin gauss 'Phract -should- be better than the Gausscat. The arm mounted weapons make it more easy to pick your shots (in theory) and it's got 5 tons on the little kitty. This should equate to more sustainability, more firepower, and more popularity. Yet, in practice, this isn't the case. Why? Because the K2 has perfect convergence, it can out-twist the 'Phract by 30 degrees, the weapons are mounted much higher up (preventing the turfing of shots when playing peekaboo), and the hit profile is much better than the 'Phract. Well, we can't change the hit profile or the position of the guns, nor can we fix the fact that the cats have better convergence (even if we put the ballistics in the arms, they're still torso locked and therefore perfectly convergent). So, the solution to bring the two more into line is decreasing the Cat's insane twist rate. It's what makes the Cat so much better in a brawl than a Gaussaphract.

Different strokes for different folks I guess. Aesthetically and emotionally the Catapult is my favorite mech, yet as a chassis to carry 2 gauss+ I take my Cataphract every single time. It's just that tad more survivable, and could even have JJs if I wanted.
Of course I'd be avoiding brawling in either, and ahhh there's the rub, it is in brawling that the kitty's good torso twist gives you problems, well hell, the poor thing has to have something going for it, thats it's only plus, even the Dragon in the Heavy class is far tougher in a brawl imho.
Is the Catapult's torso twist 'correct' in 'lore' ? I think so, How are you going to react to mechs that have 360' torso twist that i hope appear sometime ? Ahhh fond memories of the Hellspawn.

[Wolfways]

Deamhan, on 29 January 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

Really? What "stock" is that?

PPC's, ML's, and MG's. You know, the one you buy in the mechlab...

[Merky Merc]

I would think the problems lie in the ability of the K2 to use dual big ballistics and in the A1s abilities to carry 6 SRM6s, not the mech itself. I don't see how a reduction in torso twist would do anything to limit those two builds.

I would argue that changes to the way the K2 can mount ballistics should be implemented, as well as potentially even adding increased arm movement to the Phract. As for the A1 missile boat... being a missile boat idk what can be done about that, just shoot the ears?

[Jetfire]

Umm, the Cat is pretty balanced. The fact the Phract is a gun boat and the Dragon is fast cavalry is what makes the Cat seem like the standout all purpose Heavy... because it is! It won't be forever, but the fact it is now doesn't make it need a nerf. The atlas is the standout all purpose Assault and the Trebuchet will be the all purpose medium.

Of course there is a trade-off to being all purpose, for example the easy to clip wings on all but the K2 ballistic builds.

[Tabrias07]

Either give it size restricted hardpoints, so it can't take Gauss in the ST or S/SRMs in the A1 ears, or severely nerf its torso twist, and it would be better. It's supposed to be a support mech.

[Stingz]

mwhighlander, on 29 January 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

The only real problem here is that people love to brawl (naturally in the tiny-*** maps) so when a decent sniper mech comes along, they lose their heads and yell "OP" when 30 damage isn't even all that high, anyway!

30 damage twin-gauss in one spot hurts badly, it's why AC/20 is so effective also. 30 damage all over isn't very much, 30 damage to CT/Side-torso is very bad.

Lowering torso-twist on the Catapult would be good, besides you can tap Jump-Jets to turn faster anyways.

Edited by Stingz, 29 January 2013 - 04:40 PM.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

ITT: Catapult pilots saying "Dont nerf me bro"

[Deamhan]

Josef Nader, on 29 January 2013 - 03:05 PM, said:

Yet no other heavy can mount twin AC20s, or 6 SRM6s, or 6 Streaks, and all of these things are -really- powerful, especially combined with a torso traverse that lets them alpha anywhere within a 280 degree arc of their front facing.

6 launchers in the arms. You see an A1, aim for the arms.
As for the twin AC20 or twin Gauss, the Cataphract says hello.

Wolfways, on 29 January 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

PPC's, ML's, and MG's. You know, the one you buy in the mechlab...

If I recall, there is enough crit space in the arms to fit a PPC and a machine gun. So the only thing this changes to the stock build is where the weapons are located.

[Josef Nader]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 29 January 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

ITT: Catapult pilots saying "Dont nerf me bro"

Yeah, I wasn't expecting this to be a very popular thread.

There's nothing that any other heavy chassis can do that a Cat can't do better. Even when the 'Phract weighs 5 more tons, the hitboxes, torso twist, and hardpoint layout on the Cat just make it the stand out better choice for energy, missile, -and- ballistics boating. Dropping the twist a few knocks so it matches the 90 degrees (give or take) of the other Heavies would go a long way to making it less "just plain better".

Deamhan, on 29 January 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

6 launchers in the arms. You see an A1, aim for the arms.
As for the twin AC20 or twin Gauss, the Cataphract says hello.

The Cat has 40 points of armor in it's arms. It also has 40 points of armor in it's side torsos. Besides, this isn't an "OMG CATAPULTS ARE OP NERF NERF NERF" thread. This is a "the Cat seems just a touch too good, and I feel that their ability to shoot every single weapon on the mech almost directly behind them is a big part of that. I feel that their torso reach ought to be brought down a few pegs so it can't do that anymore."

Besides, the 'Pract can't mount twin AC20s and twin gauss builds are hampered by the low positioning of the arms (meaning you have to expose more of your mech to take a shot without turfing) and the goofy convergence issues at close range (your arms like to cross within a certain distance, something the K2 doesn't have to worry about with it's extremely close together gauss rifles). Plus, getting behind a 'Phract is pretty easy to do.

Edited by Josef Nader, 29 January 2013 - 05:16 PM.

[Alex Wolfe]

TheForce, on 29 January 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

But in general why bother implementing a hard point solution when you make mechs like the A1? We may as well have the full customization we had in MW2...

Because with limited customization, we have mechs doing (mostly) what they were designed for, and their function follows their form.

With unlimited customization, every mech is an identical gunbag. There's no reason for variants or chassis, only weights.

On topic, Catapult is evil. This evil.



I used to love it before MWO, but it just gets its cake and eats it in the most obnoxious way - best torso twist, best arm pitch, best boating hardpoints. Mess of a hitbox is just adding insult to injury.

Even taken down a peg, it would still be a great mech because of its hardpoints. As it is now, it's THE mech, with the only reason not to drive one would be "because it's packed so full of cheese the stench is suffocating".

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 29 January 2013 - 05:34 PM.