371 replies to this topic

[GalaxyBluestar]

if the devs were to make hardpoints reflect the mechs carrying them we would see it something like this.



this weapon can only hold so much laser power.




this weapon is much bigger so it can hold more and if the slot is not used by a weapon you can put anything in it anyways.

like i said before for the k2 this system would solve problems and would open some new builds and kill off silly builds.

[Taron]

What ever, it's just another thread by whiners.

[Serapth]

Taron, on 30 January 2013 - 07:54 PM, said:

What ever, it's just another thread by whiners.

Ironic then, that comments like these sound like the greatest QQ comments of all to me.

I mean, seriously, why bother posting? Did your counter QQ somehow restore balance to the force?

[xRatas]

About the cockpit, I managed to oneshot 4 catapults in about an hour worth of matches last evening. One was more luck than skill (over 500m distance), but 3 went down with careful aim from about 200-300m. On the same time, I only got 1 hunchback and 1 stalker with headshot, and I did try to shoot everyone in the face when ever possible.

One Cat went down from it's left back arc in almost 120 degree angle from it's center line. So much for torso twist...

Edited by xRatas, 30 January 2013 - 10:23 PM.

[LarkyMauler]

Leave my baby alone!

[Alex Wolfe]

MegaBusta, on 30 January 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

Personally I'm against the whole "size limited hardpoints" thing. It may stop some of the cheese builds, but we're going to be crippling versatility. I'm afraid of getting to the point where everything is practically close to stock 'mechs. It strikes me as a bandaid fix.

It's a tad off-topic, but the reason I like the idea of size limited hardpoints is that it gives mechs more of their identity. Various configs are already stepping on each other's toes, after a while there will be no niche in the game already filled by one of the variants of one of the mechs. Not to mention that we already have literally no reason to add specialist mechs like Hollander or Urbanmech (Raven 4x can handle gauss, even AC20) or Panther (Jenner can mount PPCs just fine) and such.

Versatility sounds nice from a "consumer" standpoint, but IS mechs were not built to be "versatile". They have variants for specific roles. Versatility is Clan forte. Limited hardpoints would give more reason to keep producing, buying and leveling mechs as well. As it is now, one glance at a newly announced mech's hardpoints often tells us that "okay but mech X already is in the game that does it better".

I believe size-limited hardpoints would be better for the game variety and longevity. Stopping (or at least curbing) some cheese is only a bonus.

Malavai Fletcher, on 30 January 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

Catapult doesn't need any kind of nerf,I see alot more Cataphract 3D's than catapults in competitive drops,the 3D has a massive advantage in a couple of areas.

People argue that because one variant of it (coincidentally the best sub-85 boat in the game) is losing half its weapons on losing an arm, the whole chassis needs to be compensated with the largest torso twist in the game... now you say it compares unfavorably to a way, way less agile mech who, upon losing its right torso (which, unlike Catapult's, is hittable from the front, on top of CT being huge), is left with less weaponry than a de-hunched Hunchback?

How would you compensate it?

Zylo, on 30 January 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

I see plenty of the cataphract 3Ds set up as snipers.

Jump -> shoot -> repeat until target is dead.

I tend to assume ignorance before malice, so I'll go on a limb here and trust you simply don't know how jump jets work in this game currently. Heavier mechs can only very barely, very slowly glide along the ground nowadays. The poptarting gameplay you describe is long dead.

Also, if someone dies (or rather used to, before jj were broken some patches ago) to such tactics in MWO's tiny, cover-rich maps, then I very doubt he could dodge or headshot a splatcat creeping up on him... what level players are we discussing?

LarkyMauler, on 31 January 2013 - 12:59 AM, said:

Leave my baby alone!

Thank you for at least expressing the general spirit of this thread .

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 31 January 2013 - 07:09 AM.

[Suki]

Josef Nader, on 30 January 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

I wasn't aware there was another mech that could mount 6 SRM 6s or twin AC20s. I'd love to play a twin AC20 mech that didn't leave me needing a shower after I used it to wash the shame away. Which chassis is that?

I've seen Atlas using twin AC20s.

[Suki]

Imperial X, on 30 January 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

Problem here isn't the mech, its missle damage. 2.5 Damage per missile is too much. A SRM6 is the most powerful weapon in the game, and it seems like the Cat is OP because it can fit 6 of them. My opinion is that either Missile damage needs to be less, say 1.5 per missile or SRMs need to take up more weight and slots. 15 damage is the same as gauss which is far heavier and slot dependent. Given SRMs aren't focused damage like the gauss but that doesn't really matter when you can rip off every single gun on a mech with one volley.

nerfing missile damage for Cats you'll nerf missile for other mechs too, you're sure you'll not gonna be sorry about it?

[Alex Wolfe]

Suki, on 31 January 2013 - 09:08 AM, said:

I've seen Atlas using twin AC20s.

In Mechwarrior 3, I presume .

[Malavai Fletcher]

Alex Wolfe, on 31 January 2013 - 06:39 AM, said:

People argue that because one variant of it (coincidentally the best sub-85 boat in the game) is losing half its weapons on losing an arm, the whole chassis needs to be compensated with the largest torso twist in the game... now you say it compares unfavorably to a way, way less agile mech who, upon losing its right torso (which, unlike Catapult's, is hittable from the front, on top of CT being huge), is left with less weaponry than a de-hunched Hunchback?

How would you compensate it?


I tend to assume ignorance before malice, so I'll go on a limb here and trust you simply don't know how jump jets work in this game currently. Heavier mechs can only very barely, very slowly glide along the ground nowadays. The poptarting gameplay you describe is long dead.

Also, if someone dies (or rather used to, before jj were broken some patches ago) to such tactics in MWO's tiny, cover-rich maps, then I very doubt he could dodge or headshot a splatcat creeping up on him... what level players are we discussing?

Yes,it is hard to hit the side torso of a cat from the front........because its CT is huge,why are you even trying to hit its side torso?Just kill it through the massive CT.

Oh no!its an SRM6 cat,and it has an OP torso twist,lucky then that i can hit the arms on it regardless of which way its twisting or running.

Or maybe the AC20/gaussapult,being all clever and running around while twisting,but,you know,it still has to face me to shoot me,with that big old CT,blah blah blah,MASSIVE CT!

And btw,have you even tried shooting up an AC20/gaussapults arse?

First time i did it all it's weapons vanished,i looked around,i was the only person who had shot him,i tried it again on a fresh cat and all the weapons vanished again!I was shocked at how easy it was to zombie it.

As for the phract,if losing your torso will take 2/3 of your weapons you can allways be wary of this and protect it,but if your poptarting this really isn't such a big problem,as you are visible for a couple of seconds while you dump an alpha into a mech.

But after reading one of your replies im guessing you're not that great with jump jets,they work on heavies and the poptarting game is very much alive.

If shortrange cats can sneak up on you and get in your back you either have no situational awareness or really really bad scouts.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

ITT: Catapult pilots crying "Dont Nerf Me Bro"

[Malavai Fletcher]

Oh yes,i dont play catapult ever,i own a K2 which i have played a whooping 3 times.

[Eric darkstar Marr]

I can squash a cat in one salvo on lrm boat. Cats are fine they are always squishier then the other heavies I find it takes forever to bring a dragon down but cats are nothing.

[Alondo]

As a pilot that just started on my Catapult masterys this week, I have to say that I don't feel like I'm driving the unstoppable fist of god.

Catapults don't seem to have any overwhelming advantage over any other mech to me.

So far I'm a grand master of Dragons (Meaning I have mastered all varients, including Fang and Flame). Also Im a master with Cicadas, Cataphracts, and Awsomes.

Just like with all those other mechs I've listed, in a Catapult I do well sometimes and sometimes I do less than 100 damage before the OPFOR comes over the ridge and decides I'm the first to die.

That's just my experience so far.

[Alex Wolfe]

Malavai Fletcher, on 31 January 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

Yes,it is hard to hit the side torso of a cat from the front........because its CT is huge,why are you even trying to hit its side torso?Just kill it through the massive CT.

You can freely hit every mech's CT, maybe besides Stalker which is pretty narrow - the Stalker however at least has its horrid agility to counterbalance that. The issue is that XL's weakness is vulnerability to side destroyed, and Catapult is the only mech pretty much immune to that from the front. Having to go dig through the CT means trading blows, and you don't want to trade blows with a 90 damage shotgun, or 40 damage pinpoint.

Again, vs. most mechs you have a choice: dig through armored CT, or dismantle side by side. Catapult strips you of the option and forces a choice you wouldn't normally take (as it's common sense to blow up the obvious XL or silence one of the big guns - AC40 cat keeps 100% damage until completely destroyed).

Malavai Fletcher, on 31 January 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

Oh no!its an SRM6 cat,and it has an OP torso twist,lucky then that i can hit the arms on it regardless of which way its twisting or running.

So in the time it takes your weapons to wreck one arm (let's say two alphas), you get a potential 180 damage done to your torso, and then (with one arm destroyed) 45 damage alphas left to deal with. What mech can afford to take such punishment up close? And how many mechs can outrun it, running at 80+ kph?

Malavai Fletcher, on 31 January 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

Or maybe the AC20/gaussapult,being all clever and running around while twisting,but,you know,it still has to face me to shoot me,with that big old CT,blah blah blah,MASSIVE CT!

Again, shooting CT is child's play for nearly every mech. They're huge for Cataphracts or Dragons or Awesomes as well. Point is, you're denied the option to disarm the torso guns or pop XL.

Malavai Fletcher, on 31 January 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

And btw,have you even tried shooting up an AC20/gaussapults arse?

And have you ever danced with the devil in the pale moonlight, since we're asking random questions? "Being shot in the back" is every mech's weakness. So is being shot while AFK or overheated. That doesn't factor into balance discussions, and doesn't justify any extra benefits or qualities of the chassis .

Malavai Fletcher, on 31 January 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

First time i did it all it's weapons vanished,i looked around,i was the only person who had shot him,i tried it again on a fresh cat and all the weapons vanished again!I was shocked at how easy it was to zombie it.

Fascinating. Again, it doesn't matter how easy a mech is to kill from behind or afk or disconnected, they all are. And that's not what "zombie" means in mech context.

Malavai Fletcher, on 31 January 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

As for the phract,if losing your torso will take 2/3 of your weapons you can allways be wary of this and protect it,but if your poptarting this really isn't such a big problem,as you are visible for a couple of seconds while you dump an alpha into a mech.

But after reading one of your replies im guessing you're not that great with jump jets,they work on heavies and the poptarting game is very much alive.

Poptarting with a mech that nearly drags its knuckles on the ground, using two differently mounted weapon systems for maximum convergence problems, with the currently gimped jump jets. Okay. I'm sure they're a real terror.

Enemies naturally just stand there and let it shoot them repeatedly at long range, I take it?

Malavai Fletcher, on 31 January 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

If shortrange cats can sneak up on you and get in your back you either have no situational awareness or really really bad scouts.

The eternal "argument" of "your bad l2p", excellent. Should I respond with "no u", or "if you can't reach close range with an 80+ kph mech on MWO's cramped maps, then consider grabbing your joystick with your hands instead of feet next game"?

Okay, let's not stoop to such level. I'll ask this instead: if someone is also a brawler, and he's against an SRM cat, then it doesn't have to sneak up on him even because they share the same effective range. What is he supposed to do vs. a shotgunpult he can't outmaneuver (it keeps staring at you), can't outgun and can't put down fast (XL engine is there, but you have to either disarm it - again, it only diminishes alpha damage from 90 to mere 45 while your torso melts - or dig through CT). What is such a pilot supposed to do, type "gg" and walk out of bonds? Plead to be spared if he powers down?

Oh right. Get better, or adapt, or call his buddies and gang up on the midboss, or run away and hope something happens. In short, accept Catapult to be the best mech at what it does and go home.

Goody gumdrops.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 31 January 2013 - 03:02 PM.

[Zylo]

Alex Wolfe, on 31 January 2013 - 06:39 AM, said:

I tend to assume ignorance before malice, so I'll go on a limb here and trust you simply don't know how jump jets work in this game currently. Heavier mechs can only very barely, very slowly glide along the ground nowadays. The poptarting gameplay you describe is long dead.

It is still possible as I have done it with the 3D (last played the 3D about a week ago) but it requires nearly a full burn of the jets to only get a quick shot in. You can only hide behind small hills or short buildings but it does still work.

You must have 4 jump jets equipped to get off the ground, if you only have 1 jump jet then yes, you will just sort of glide along the ground.

[BerryChunks]

lol i just saw some cat fool with an XL engine get legged and die instantly with perfectly healthy torso armors, cause damage to Legs past destroyed transfers damage to the internals of the Side Torso above it.

[Tasorin]

Thank god the Dev's don't listen to the pack of cry babies in General Discussion....

[CECILOFS]

Ok first of all, to those who say Catapults are good brawlers, please go and actually try it. They aren't, they are terrible at brawling. What they are good at is sneaky hit and run tactics. In prolongued, close firefights they get ***** by anything they can't 1 or 2 shot. As soon as the enemy knows where you are and what you are, they will all be shooting at you. Like any mech, focus fire will kill them within seconds.

For clarity I would also like to outline the actual builds we are talking about here. These are my builds so they may not be optimal but it gives you an idea of what we are talking about.

1st the "Splatapult" A1 w/6xSRM6:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...810bb39a6db923a

Pros:
- 90 damage alpha
- Good speed for a heavy
- Good torso twist

Cons:
- XL Engine
- Max range of ~150m
- Only 16.6 shots....if you miss, there goes 1/3 of a ton of ammo.
- Attrocious heat efficiency. ~3 alphas till overheat, which is fine for hit and run but terrible if trying to brawl.
- All weapons in highly vulnerable ears
- No secondary weapons, completely vulnerable between salvos.
- No jumpjets


The K2 Dual Guass:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7a3148e889c6653

Pros:
- 30 damage alpha to a single point at long range
- No heat
- Ammo doesn't explode

Cons:
- Large cooldown on weapons - especially bad if you miss a shot
- no jumpjets
- No seconary weapons (You can scale armour/engine down to fit some lasers if you want)
- Hardpoints empty, ears useless and can't even be used as shield due to needing to take off armour to fit gauss.
- Sacrifices armour and engine speed to fit Gauss
- Slower than normal cats
- XL engine
- Exploding Gauss rifles = gg, you died. Can potentially happen from a single hit. However I think CASE stops you from dying??
- Ammo dependent. 40 total shots...don't miss!

K2 Dual AC/20 (I have only tried this once because its a ridiculous build and I can't seem to hit with it):

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b828fc81c53eae0

Pros:
- 40 damage alpha to single point at low-med range (med if you are a really good shot since the projectile is so slow).
- STD engine
- Good torso twist

Cons:
- Slower than normal cats
- Ears don't shield the side torsos cause they have no armour and die in 1 hit
- Sacrifices armour, engine and ammo just to fit the AC20s
- No secondary weapons
- Stupidly low ammo - 17.5 shots. Don't miss!
- AC20s very vulnerable, even to single hits to the side torsos
- Ammo explodes

In addition to the general pros/cons of catapults i.e. Speed, torso twist but huge CT/cockpit and vulnerable ears.

I'm not gonna claim they are perfectly balanced and wouldn't complain too much about reduced torso twist. However these builds, while powerful, are extremely 1-dimensional and entirely all-or-nothing. When playing these builds, I will either do very well, or die within the first few minutes.

My point is that every mech design has pros/cons which balance them. In this world of ECM, where close range fighting is king and even Atlai can sneak up on you, of course close range burst builds will be good. The catapult is good at that, but so is the Atlas-D-DC and it brings its own ECM.

Pretty much everyone shoots the catapult first in my experience, even more so after they see your weapon loadout.

Edited by CECILOFS, 01 February 2013 - 01:50 AM.

[dervishx5]

Fact is, if you use a 6 SRM6 A1, you're just another typical tryhard; you depend on the OP weapon of the month to get by rather than actual skill.