84 replies to this topic

[KuruptU4Fun]

KerenskyClone, on 30 January 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

The PPC should affect the ECM, but 5 seconds is a little bit too much methinks.

I say give the PPC and ERPPC an EMP effect that lasts 2-3 seconds, that completely negates not only ECM but the entire electronics suite of the enemy mech, including the entire HUD, say like a scramble effect, you can still see the HUD but its in a 'shimmering' state. The radar should be disabled during this effect.

The 5 second PPC disruption is a good place to start. It can be adjusted obviously, it can also be used as a placard on how it can effect electronics as a whole. Start small, then expand as best needed.

[DocBach]

KuruptU4Fun, on 30 January 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

IF people do nothing but PUG because they feel joining a group to fight in a team based game isn't to their liking then that's on them. In order to keep things imperfectly balanced in any MMO you can't have 1 thing that counters another completely. It negates using either entirely. If you can't use a component because everyone else will use it's counter then what's the point of having either component available to use in the first place anyways.

The solution is to make the original equipment not as incredibly mission essential as it currently is, so people don't feel that they need to run their entire game strategy against that equipment. The problem isn't players adapting to a 1.5 ton, 2 critical ECM, it's that the 1.5 ton, 2 critical ECM has become, as Accursed Richards put wonderfully, the fulcrum around which this game has become balanced on.

[Tennex]

paul doesn't know what he is doing. if he did he wouldn't be at PGI, and that is the sad truth

[KuruptU4Fun]

Hence the reason that small counters like the TAG buff; the sensor module buffs and the upcoming PPC changes make for effective counters to ECM as a whole. ECM use has declined steadily since it's introduction. I'd bet the PPC scramble will see a continued drop in it's use. Do I like it that ECM mechs can use SSRM's as well? Oh hell no, but I also see that the current changes and future changes like bringing collisions back in will counter ECM further, but not bring about the introduction of something else that is a "must have" for every mech.

Tennex, on 30 January 2013 - 07:47 AM, said:

paul doesn't know what he is doing. if he did he wouldn't be at PGI, and that is the sad truth

Paul is at PGI because he wants to be and because he is a fan of BT/MW. But if you feel you can do a better job then by all means stage a coup to get him out.

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 30 January 2013 - 07:51 AM.

[DocBach]

KuruptU4Fun, on 30 January 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

Paul is at PGI because he wants to be and because he is a fan of BT/MW. But if you feel you can do a better job then by all means stage a coup to get him out.

I wouldn't want to commute to Canada.

[mike29tw]

Accursed Richards, on 30 January 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

As an experiment if I ever develop an online shooter game, I'll introduce the cheap Kill Anything Module. If another player looks at you for more than three seconds, they explode. I'm completely certain no matter how obviously unbalanced is is, the Kill Anything Module will have forum defenders saying it's perfectly balanced and counterable, and if you have problems with it, you just need to lrn2play lol.

I'd actually like to try out a shooter based on that. If done right it could be both very skill based and hilarious lol.

KuruptU4Fun, on 30 January 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

It doesn't take a l33t team to counter an ECM team, just communicate and use teamwork to beat them. Having small multiple ways to beat ECM means that one counter doesn't negate ECM and that 1 counter. Just like there are multiple ways to avoid LRM boating if you're aware of your surroundings. Duck and cover beats the full damage that LRM's can do every time.

You're right that there are many small ways to beat ECM, but the fact remains: the best counter to ECM is another ECM.

Funny that you mentioned LRM now, because as an ECM scout I can always hug the LRM boat to take him outta the game for a good amount of time.

If I'm having so much trouble fighting ECM mechs, why would I wanna bring TAG or PPC, when I can just bring my own ECM and be done with it ?

[Felix Dante]

DocBach, on 29 January 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

Its really disappointing how bad Beagle's gotten the shaft in this game. All of its key uses have been stripped from it and given to modules.

My guess is that once they implement a BAP, they will be more powerful than the modules (as they cost tonnage) and will be enhanced by modules to some extent. Just becasue the rules in the tabletop game have ECM canceling BAP doesn't mean it will completely in MWO either. Example: In the tabletop game ECM doesn't cancel streaks, but in MWO they do prtially as a Balancing issue.

My guess is BAP will have (eventually) some functionality still with ECM, in order to preserve balance and maintain it's usefulness for spending the tonnage on it. I personally look forward to when they add the BAP to the game just to see what it can do eventually.

[Tennex]

I think i'm done with this game

http://www.metacriti...y/piranha-games

[KuruptU4Fun]

DocBach, on 30 January 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

I wouldn't want to commute to Canada.

I'd bet you like his paychecks if you didn't....

[Yokaiko]

mike29tw, on 30 January 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

If I'm having so much trouble fighting ECM mechs, why would I wanna bring TAG or PPC, when I can just bring my own ECM and be done with it ?

....and don't even get me started on NARC, slow, heavy, can miss, and only lasts EIGHT seconds..

[KuruptU4Fun]

mike29tw, on 30 January 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

I'd actually like to try out a shooter based on that. If done right it could be both very skill based and hilarious lol.



You're right that there are many small ways to beat ECM, but the fact remains: the best counter to ECM is another ECM.

Funny that you mentioned LRM now, because as an ECM scout I can always hug the LRM boat to take him outta the game for a good amount of time.

If I'm having so much trouble fighting ECM mechs, why would I wanna bring TAG or PPC, when I can just bring my own ECM and be done with it ?

Because ECM is only part of the whole mech, can you show any 1 mech that fields the exact same weapons between multiple PUG players? The closest you can get is Streak ECM, and not every ECM mech can field SSRM's.

[Yokaiko]

KuruptU4Fun, on 30 January 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

Because ECM is only part of the whole mech, can you show any 1 mech that fields the exact same weapons between multiple PUG players? The closest you can get is Streak ECM, and not every ECM mech can field SSRM's.

Only the Cicada can't and they are rare birds compared to the -2D and -3L.

[DocBach]

KuruptU4Fun, on 30 January 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

Because ECM is only part of the whole mech, can you show any 1 mech that fields the exact same weapons between multiple PUG players? The closest you can get is Streak ECM, and not every ECM mech can field SSRM's.

The majority of 2D loadouts use ECM, 3 Streak 2s, and a medium laser. The majority of 3L variants use 3 medium lasers and two streak 2s. Atlases have a little more variation; sometimes they have Ultra AC5s and streaks, sometimes they have LB10Xs and streaks, or sometimes they have AC20s and streaks.

[Shadowsword8]

KerenskyClone, on 30 January 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

The PPC should affect the ECM, but 5 seconds is a little bit too much methinks.

I say give the PPC and ERPPC an EMP effect that lasts 2-3 seconds, that completely negates not only ECM but the entire electronics suite of the enemy mech, including the entire HUD, say like a scramble effect, you can still see the HUD but its in a 'shimmering' state. The radar should be disabled during this effect.

Five seconds is just enough to get a lock and fire ONE missile salvo. 2-3 seconds would be completely useless.

And what if it negate ECM?

On one hand, you have a system that takes no signifiant sacrifice to fit, don't require aiming, isn't hampered by terrain, don't generate heat. On the other, you have another that is pretty heavy, require accurate aiming, direct line of sight and generate a lot of heat. It negate ECM? It bloody well should!


Of course, it would be better if ECM was just plain nerfed, but this is better than nothing....

[BlackSquirrel]

Asmudius Heng, on 29 January 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

Yes indeed. In fact the length of time for a mech to detect another on the HUD should be based on tonnage, proximity, and if your reticle is trained on them - so light mechs migth take longer to lock up than heavier mechs. Allowing scouts to be you know - scouts.

Then you could make ECM effect the time and range etc of these rules rather than a flat out blanket ban on targetting.

Rather like that idea.

I think there should be 2 modules one that just hides one's self and another that bubbles... greater weight or space imo.

[Jakob Knight]

The interesting thing is how hard the devs are trying to avoid making any changes to ECM, even though it is obvious how overpowered it is, and every 'counter' they propose is designed to not be usable by the mechs suffering the biggest handicaps from the system.

Will this PPC ability help LRM units aquire ECM targets for indirect fire? If not, then in my book, it's just another excuse (as TAG is) which does not correct the biggest error in the system.

Not only that, but as is clear from the description, PPCs will only have an effect if you target -and hit- the ECM generating unit. Striking a target that is protected by ECM but not the generating unit will do nothing to the ECM protection, as it isn't striking the generating unit. That also means that an ECM unit under protection by another ECM unit will likewise be unaffected, as the PPC blast will not disable the second ECM unit.

And the range increase module? They actually insult the players -again- by claiming 70m is a majorly significant amount of space to detect, lock onto (remember also the increased lock time from ECM), fire, maintain lock, and hit a target moving at 130kph? More than once? Excuse me, but I play the game and know better. This is simply showing how much the devs despise their players, thinking something like this would be swallowed without realization that it was nothing at all for millions of cbills and thousands of GXP.

While this will help direct-fire brawlers (who were the ones really needing the help??), this change does squat for LRM users who have been shut out of the game by a single 1.5 ton module. The devs know this, and their continued refusal to make even minor changes to ECM itself point to a mania fixation on not giving up their dream equipment in the slightest.

More proof the devs are simply only interested in their own powergaming, and not anyone else.

[GioAvanti]

BLUPRNT, on 29 January 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

Posted this in another topic,
This will no doubt turn into another ECM debate. I believe ECM might be the only thing that will save our *sses when the Clans come and we should wait til we see what they bring before we start another ECM is OP and nerf debate. I think I read somewhere the Clans don't field ECM as it is not honorable. At least not until later in the story anyway.

Ummm no...loki prime one of the first clan mechs the is saw has ecm.

[Trauglodyte]

The CDA-2A with 3 Mds and 1 PPC, which I've been running since Open Beta went live, says, "hi".

[TexAce]

Jakob Knight, on 30 January 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

The interesting thing is how hard the devs are trying to avoid making any changes to ECM, even though it is obvious how overpowered it is, and every 'counter' they propose is designed to not be usable by the mechs suffering the biggest handicaps from the system.

Will this PPC ability help LRM units aquire ECM targets for indirect fire? If not, then in my book, it's just another excuse (as TAG is) which does not correct the biggest error in the system.

Not only that, but as is clear from the description, PPCs will only have an effect if you target -and hit- the ECM generating unit. Striking a target that is protected by ECM but not the generating unit will do nothing to the ECM protection, as it isn't striking the generating unit. That also means that an ECM unit under protection by another ECM unit will likewise be unaffected, as the PPC blast will not disable the second ECM unit.

And the range increase module? They actually insult the players -again- by claiming 70m is a majorly significant amount of space to detect, lock onto (remember also the increased lock time from ECM), fire, maintain lock, and hit a target moving at 130kph? More than once? Excuse me, but I play the game and know better. This is simply showing how much the devs despise their players, thinking something like this would be swallowed without realization that it was nothing at all for millions of cbills and thousands of GXP.

While this will help direct-fire brawlers (who were the ones really needing the help??), this change does squat for LRM users who have been shut out of the game by a single 1.5 ton module. The devs know this, and their continued refusal to make even minor changes to ECM itself point to a mania fixation on not giving up their dream equipment in the slightest.

More proof the devs are simply only interested in their own powergaming, and not anyone else.

The way I see it:

- PGI loves light mechs (they admitted)
- PGI was frustrated that Streakcats could ruin their days (we saw on twitch countless times)
- PGI decides to add ECM "Haha screw you Streakcats" making lights op
- Forum goes beserk because ECM was made more OP than it should really be
- PGI acts like a little angry girl and doesn't want to nerf ECM
- PGI adds EMP effect to PPC saying it is listening to the community but in reality they only nerf the D-DC, since 1 out of 10 can hit a 150km/h light with a PPC.
- PGI laughes quietly in their office keeping lights OP.

End of Story: They will never do whats easiest and most accepted by the community, which is make ECM act as it should (nerf it), instead they will come up with more useless ideas.

[Stormwolf]

TexAss, on 30 January 2013 - 09:50 AM, said:

End of Story: They will never do whats easiest and most accepted by the community, which is make ECM act as it should (nerf it), instead they will come up with more useless ideas.

I wouldn't call it nerfing, much rather "turning it into what it is supposed to be".

From Total War:

Quote

Within its eff ect radius, an ECM suite has the following eff ects
on the following systems. The ECM suite does not aff ect other
scanning and targeting devices, such as TAG and targeting
computers.

Active Probe: Active probes cannot penetrate the ECM’s area
of eff ect. The probing unit would notice that it is being jammed,
however.

Artemis IV FCS: ECM blocks the eff ects of Artemis IV fi re
control systems. Artemis-equipped launchers may be fi red as
normal missiles through the ECM, but they lose the Cluster Hits
Table bonus.

Narc Missile Beacon: Missiles equipped to home in on an
attached Narc pod lose the Cluster Hits Table bonus for that
system if the pods themselves lie within an ECM “bubble.” The
Narc launcher itself (standard and iNarc) is not aff ected by ECM.

C3 and C3i Computer: ECM has the eff ect of “cutting off ” any C3-
equipped unit from its network. If a C3 master unit is isolated from
the network because it ventures inside the ECM radius, the entire
portion of the network below it is eff ectively shut off (all units
subordinate to it on the diagram on p. 132). Only those C3 units able
to draw an LOS to the master unit that does not pass through the
ECM radius can access the network. If the master unit that connects
the lances of a company lies inside the ECM eff ect radius, the link
between the lances is lost, though each lance’s network functions
normally (unless the ECM also interferes with them individually).