42 replies to this topic

[Iacov]

but you're completely ignoring the possibility to move the ballistic hardpoints to the CT (because I admit, that I haven't thought about such cheese builds when i originally assigned the tortuga 2B in the side torsos)
in the CT you could only fit ac/2s at maximum, which therefore would limit the exploitation

yet you still have very balanced loadout options with 2e,2b,2m
don't see where it would invalidate other catapult variants
you don't say that the C4 invalidates the C1, too, right?
tortuga is just meant to be a unique variant - especially to incorporate the catapult's traditional feature (LRM's) with the aesthetics of the K2 torso (i'll admit i love those machine guns)

[Skyfaller]

I would prefer a Cat hero as being:

Arms: 1M/1M
1 20-tube launcher in each arm. (2 total)

LT/RT: 2AMS/2AMS, 1E/1E, 1B,1B
2 AMS per shoulder (4 total)
1 Energy per shoulder (2 total)
1 ballistic per shoulder (2 total)

I dont remember how many slots are left in the CT when engine is in (i think its 4?) so add as many ballistic slots as there are CT empty slots when engine is installed.

This permits a very balanced weapon load catapult.

Total:

6 ballistic
2 missile
2 energy

[Iacov]

changed the proposed hardpoint layout (NOT reflected in the poll, which remains unchanged) and weapons loadout

looking forward to feedback

[Volthorne]

I still vote no because it would still be strictly better than every other possible Catapult variant that could be added. None of them mount the full array of all three weapon types.

[Iacov]

Volthorne, on 09 June 2013 - 05:45 AM, said:

None of them mount the full array of all three weapon types.

thank you
yes, that's true - but what would actually be bad about it? or worsening the situation for the rest of the variants?

Heavy Metal also carries all 3 hardpoint types
Misery is the only Stalker to have a ballistic hardpoint at all - and has all 3 types of hardpoints
X-5 is the only CIcada having missile hardpoints
the death's knell is the only commando to have 4E
the Firebrand is the only Jager to offer 6E
Ilya Muromets is the only cataphract offering a 3uac/5 build
yet none of the above rendered a variant useless, as far as one can tell - and yet many of them even offered "cheezy" builds

the most important thing is to not canibalize the other variants, by making them better in their very own "niche" - like offering 4M like the C4 or 6M like the A1, or offering 4B which would probably canibalize the K2

i actually advocate 2M2E2B (in the aforementioned "2B -> CT" layout) because it is unique, still fits the catapult's role and is yet not game breaking

(just to make my thoughts about the layout clearer)

[Corvus Antaka]

Id go with this for the hero mech

CPLT-C6 - A field refit of the C5 pressed into service by the Capellans during the Jihad, the C6 removes the artillery and two ER medium lasers to mount paired Plasma Rifles with three tons of ammo and three additional double heat sinks keep heat down. Such was the nature of this refit that even the CASE is still mounted, despite lacking any systems to warrant its use.^[6] BV (2.0) = 1,874^[10]

[General Taskeen]

Its not a bad idea, persay. Its definitely a unique build.

I'd still like PGI to make MG's do the damage they are supposed to do, however.

[Unbound Inferno]

I would absolutely love a Catapult Hero Mech, but not the first one, for reasons already stated as well.

It would need to be unique for sure, but as for what I'd probably do with it;

2x (Missile) LA/RA LRM20+Artemis, 6 ton ammo
2x (Energy) LT/RT Med lasers
2x (AMS) LT/RT AMS, 2 ton ammo
2x (Ballistic) CT MG, 1 ton ammo
1x (Energy) Head Tag - adding that hardpointpoint
XL265 Engine
Endo-Steel Structure
12.5 tons Standard Armor

C-Bill bonus


Similar to yours, and still should keep it from replacing either the Energy output of the C1, or the Ballistic options of the K2. It keeps a standard expected level of output that doesn't completely outshine the rest. With a lack of JGs it won't replace the advantage of the other versions in mobility, only relative versatility.

The unique aspect is in 2 parts to me;
1. Dual AMS unique for the chasis lets it shrug off opposing LRMs and Streaks giving it its own niche with that alone
2. The TAG position appears directly above the cockpit. The position on the mech allows it to peek above cover for the bonus without endangering most of the mech for LRM firing in certain instances. The catch is the visual spot I'd want it to line up with is outside the hitbox for the head. I don't mean it to expand that already extremely vulnerable spot if it can be helped.

Quirks, I don't know. What is the general rule or restriction for them? I might argue a wider torso twist.

Edited by Unbound Inferno, 10 June 2013 - 08:26 AM.

[Volthorne]

Iacov, on 09 June 2013 - 06:39 AM, said:

Heavy Metal also carries all 3 hardpoint types

The missiles were moved from the arm to the chest and vice versa for the lasers which makes it better for long-range engagements as opposed to all other highlanders being better for brawls.

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Misery is the only Stalker to have a ballistic hardpoint at all - and has all 3 types of hardpoints

For that one ballistic it LOSES 3 - 4 missile hardpoints.

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X-5 is the only CIcada having missile hardpoints

SRMs are heavier than lasers and require explosive ammo. Zero upsides there.

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the death's knell is the only commando to have 4E

Lasers give it less "burst" damage than SRMs, which is vital in such a light 'Mech.

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the Firebrand is the only Jager to offer 6E

Every other Jaeger can mount more high-DPS weapons than the Firebrand.

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Ilya Muromets is the only cataphract offering a 3uac/5 build

The 4X with x2 AC/2 and x2 AC/5 has a higher overall DPS (assuming just ACs), despite moving a bit slower.

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yet none of the above rendered a variant useless, as far as one can tell - and yet many of them even offered "cheezy" builds

That's because none of them are strictly better than their free counter-parts.

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the most important thing is to not canibalize the other variants, by making them better in their very own "niche" - like offering 4M like the C4 or 6M like the A1, or offering 4B which would probably canibalize the K2

Oh really. Your suggested hero would pull the ballistic slots from the K2 (albiet in the CT so only AC/2s or MGs), the 2 missile hardpoints from a C1, and the 2 laser hardpoints from a C4 (now in the LT/RT, which is better than CT). I fail to see how this hasn't "cannibalized" those three. Not to mention it infringes on the implementation of the C2, which mounts x2 LRM-15s and x2 LBX-2s but no lasers.

As I said earlier: your layout is strictly better than the K2, C1, and C4. I'd suggest something involving missiles in the LT/RT, because AFAIK no canon Catapult ever does that.

Edited by Volthorne, 09 June 2013 - 10:29 PM.

[Iacov]

Volthorne, on 09 June 2013 - 10:22 PM, said:

Oh really. Your suggested hero would pull the ballistic slots from the K2 (albiet in the CT so only AC/2s or MGs), the 2 missile hardpoints from a C1, and the 2 laser hardpoints from a C4 (now in the LT/RT, which is better than CT). I fail to see how this hasn't "cannibalized" those three. Not to mention it infringes on the implementation of the C2, which mounts x2 LRM-15s and x2 LBX-2s but no lasers.

As I said earlier: your layout is strictly better than the K2, C1, and C4. I'd suggest something involving missiles in the LT/RT, because AFAIK no canon Catapult ever does that.

that's an interesting view, thank you!

nevertheless I have to contradict
the Tortuga does not have the K2 ballistic hardpoints - a dual-gauss or -ac/20 build is not possible - thus keeping the K2's unique niche of 4E2B
it also does not outdo the C1 - because the C1 is the only Cat to offer 4E2M
the C4s 6M do not even need to be discussed
the A1 is also unique with 2E4M

what exactly would be the downside to offer a Catapult with an even layout of 2E2M2B - especially in comparison to already released hero mechs?
beyond "uniqueness" it also fits the meta of Catapults - fire support! (2 missile hardpoints, laser hardpoints either fitting tag, lasers or ppcs, 2B being either ac2 fire support or a MG low-heat self defense option)
it would merely offer a niche within the catapult variants

of course there could be other "hero variants":
- ballistics in arms: this would render the K2 obsolete for all those ac/20 maniacs...because you could finally fit 2 ac/20s in a catapult without sacrificing the XL engine
- missiles in side torsos: kinda redundant; the catapult's design uses the "high mounted" missiles to give them a better firing position - with Ms in sidetorsos you will end up shooting needles into hills even more!
- energy...energy everywhere! kinda boring, because you have a lot of energy-only chassis/variants

my plea for the Tortuga (2B2M2E - ballistics in CT) is in conclusion:
It offers an interesting hardpoint layout - coupled with a distinct look, thanks to the ballistics hardpoint, like the K2.
It offers "uniqueness" for its money - but without offering "p2w"/boating or "endangering" other Catapult variants, as every variant would retain its niche

[Volthorne]

Iacov, on 10 June 2013 - 02:49 AM, said:

the Tortuga does not have the K2 ballistic hardpoints - a dual-gauss or -ac/20 build is not possible - thus keeping the K2's
unique niche of 4E2B

Almost no one uses those builds any more anyway since the Jaeger was released, due to worse hardpoint placement (and the ability to aim up/down hills! Also not turfing all of your shots). AC/10 and AC/5 Catapults would still be unique to the K2 but that's hardly a worthwhile trade off for lower-heat, higher-damage SRM racks in the arms instead of lasers.

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it also does not outdo the C1 - because the C1 is the only Cat to offer 4E2M

AC/2s are arguably better than MLas and MPLas despite weighing more due to their increased DPS and better heat efficiency.

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the A1s 6M do not even need to be discussed

FTFY. No argument there.

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the C4 is also unique with 2E4M

FTFY again. Sure it can carry a whole two extra launchers, which no one uses unless you take SRMs (and then the A1 is a better SRM boat). Plus, lasers in the LT/RT are far more valuable than lasers in the CT.

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what exactly would be the downside to offer a Catapult with an even layout of 2E2M2B - especially in comparison to already released hero mechs?

Exactly. There IS no tradeoff for having a hardpoint layout like this. There is literally no downside to using it over any other Catapult, whereas every other Hero 'Mech (you forgot to list the YLW btw, but the downsides there are very apparent) is unique AND has both +'s and -'s to using. I cannot think of a single negative here other than maybe needing a smaller engine to fit an optimal loadout, but that's negligible since you shouldn't be in with the brawlers anyway.

Edited by Volthorne, 10 June 2013 - 08:13 AM.

[Sug]

I'd like to see a asymmetrical Hero Catapult. Like they salvaged an arm off a C1/4 and stuck it on a K2. With hardpoints arranged something like:

Right Arm: 1 Energy
Left Arm: 2 Missile
Right Torso: 1 Ballistic
Left Torso: 1 Engery

[Volthorne]

Sug, on 10 June 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

I'd like to see a asymmetrical Hero Catapult. Like they salvaged an arm off a C1/4 and stuck it on a K2. With hardpoints arranged something like:

Right Arm: 1 Energy
Left Arm: 2 Missile
Right Torso: 1 Ballistic
Left Torso: 1 Engery

I could get behind that. Sort of a franken-'Mech-style Catapult.

[ShadowbaneX]

focuspark, on 05 March 2013 - 02:57 PM, said:

so... it's a C1 with 2xMG in place of 2xML?

Personally, I really want a CPLT-K2 variant... the K3?

LA/RA: 1 EHP each
LT/RT: 1 MHP + 1 AMS each
CT: 2 BHP

default loadout:
2x PPC
2x LRM10
2x MG

Basically a flipped CPLT with the missiles in the torso so the big 'ol PPC barrels can stay in the arms.

Actually, we pretty much can make the CPLT-K3. It just swaps the PPCs for ER PPCs and changes to 20 Double Heat Sinks.

The K4 uses Heavy PPCs and ER MLs with a smaller engine.

The K5 uses a pair of MRM-30s and a pair of Medium Pulse Lasers.

The only noted Hero Cat on Sarna has 4*SRM6 & 4*ML, which we cannot do. The C1 only has 2 Missile points and the C4 has only 2 Energy points. We don't have anything with 4 & 4.

[scJazz]

Iacov, on 06 March 2013 - 12:26 AM, said:

and no jump jets!

Going back and deleting my I approve of this idea Vote and changing it to this sucks is not making me happy. Any discussion of Catapult Heroes better leave the JJs in tyvm

Put the JJs back! The only bloody reason I'm driving a Catapult is for the JJs

Hardpoints
2M R/LA
3E R/L/CT H
2B CT H
JJs!!!
No ECM!

Loadout
2 x ALRM10 (10 tubes)
2 x PLL R/LT
1 x TAG CT
2 x MGs CT H
3 tons LRM Ammo
1 ton MG ammo
XL260
Armor: 400/422
Endo/Artemis/DSHS

Notes: Any quirks are up to someone else to decide but keeping the Energy and Ballistics in the body makes for a nice restriction on aiming. Basic loadout is the total weight of weapons and ammo. Max Loadouts are the heaviest weights of that weapon type possible.

Basic Loadout: 32 tons
Max Missile Loadout: 22 tons (2 ALRM20)
Max Energy Loadout: 16 tons (2 ERPPC + MPL)
Max Ballistic Loadout: 12 tons (2 AC/2)

EDIT: Remembered that someone would no doubt stick a 3rd LL in CT given half a chance.

Edited by scJazz, 12 June 2013 - 05:08 PM.

[Omigir]

Hero Catapult huh? Pft, sounds like you should have gotten in on the founders package ;P

[Spirit of the Wolf]

This could be an interesting idea, but I'd like PGI to finish things they've already started before working on stuff like this.

That said, if their 'mech-creating department' is free/has little work to do right now (which I highly doubt), then by all means, go ahead and see if this build will work.

And the hardpoints are fine the way you put them most recently:
1E head (TAG, at most 1 MPL)
2B CT (2 MG, at most 2 AC/2)
1E LT (1 LPL, at most 1 PPC/ERPPC)
1E RT (1 LPL, at most 1 PPC/ERPPC)
1M LA (1 ALRM 15, at most 1 ALRM 20)
1M RA (1 ALRM 15, at most 1 ALRM 20)


You need to change the poll though, so it reflects the 2B being in the CT, not the LT/RT.

And I'm on the fence about JJ. (Definitely no ECM though. The last thing we need is a CPLT with ECM.)

[Unbound Inferno]

Shouldn't have JJ otherwise its loadout similarities of the C1/C4 makes them obsolete - leaving them with mobility where you trade versatility with the hero mech would be good.

[Spudbuddy]

I'd grab deal this so hard

[Alex Warden]

LA/RA: 2X M each
LT/RT: 1X E each
CT: 2X E each or 2x B to make it more different from the C1

basically we have that with a jägermech already, but it´s not a freaking catapult

would it make the c4 obsolete? maybe, but i don´t like the c4 anyway

another one iwould also drive:

K2

LA/RA : 1E
LT/RT: 1B
CT: 2 M ^^

Edited by Alex Warden, 20 June 2013 - 02:01 PM.