72 replies to this topic

[Pariah Devalis]

If I have any of this initial part wrong, please inform me. However, how I understand Omnimech construction rules as far as the tabletop was concerned, the mech comes prepackaged, with the engine, armor, and fixed internals such as preset heatsinks, weapons, or electronics. The advantage being that you get a tonnage allotment that you can, essentially, stick whatever the hell you want into them. If this is correct, then this causes a possible problem down the line.


My 70 ton CTF-IM has two gauss rifles, 6 tons of ammo, and 3 medium lasers. That adds up to 39 tons of space devoted to weapons and ammo. The 75 ton Timberwolf has a grand total of, what, 27.5 tons of pod space to play with? Even if my CTF used nothing but clan weaponry, that is still 33 tons of, essentially, pod space. On a 5 ton lighter mech, which is similarly well armored but a little slower.

The map design so far really does not let people take advantage of long range direct fire weapons against an intelligent enemy for more then a salvo or two, leaving the range advantage of Clan weapon systems as an arguably moot point. This leaves the damage bonus on a per weapon basis, but comes at the cost of increased heat, as well, so it cannot be fired as often. Without the effective range bonus, we end up looking at what are probably more or less equally matched weapon systems, between Clan and IS since it is a straight damage vs heat tradeoff going on.

If the overall weapon effectiveness is about equal, but the total podspace on an Omnimech to stick them in is around 1/3 less then that of a given Battlemech, it is very possible that Clan mechs will actually be WORSE then their Inner Sphere cousins. If this is the case, how in the seven hells will it be possible to balance the Clan machines, since every assumption thus far has been that the Clan mechs will actually be better then the IS units?

[NocturnalBeast]

Our IS mechs in MWO are essentially "omni" mechs since we can reconfigure them between battles.

[Pariah Devalis]

quasihuman, on 05 January 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

Our IS mechs in MWO are essentially "omni" mechs since we can reconfigure them between battles.

Yes and no. An omnimech would not have a ballistic only slot or an energy only slot. It would have an omnislot which could take any sort of weapon system. It gains the flexibility of letting any mech take any weapon on any mounting point on the mech. The downside is the max possible tonnage to put things in there seems scary low, considering DHS and ES are already in wide use in MWO's IS mechs.

Hilariously, it would make the second line machines BETTER choices, in most respects, to the Omni's.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 05 January 2013 - 06:23 PM.

[CG Oglethorpe Kerensky]

Pariah Devalis, on 05 January 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

My 70 ton CTF-IM has two gauss rifles, 6 tons of ammo, and 3 medium lasers. That adds up to 39 tons of space devoted to weapons and ammo. The 75 ton Timberwolf has a grand total of, what, 27.5 tons of pod space to play with? Even if my CTF used nothing but clan weaponry, that is still 33 tons of, essentially, pod space. On a 5 ton lighter mech, which is similarly well armored but a little slower.

Lets be clear, the Timberwolf is going to be notably faster than you. Fully skilled, your Marmoset hits around 70kph, the Timberwolf is going to crusing at 90kph with a tigher turn radius and faster torso movements.
Also your Marmoset can be destroyed by losing any one torso section, while the Timberwolf will need either BOTH left and right torso sections destroyed or the center torso making it far harder to take out of the fight.

MWO has shown us that speed is vital and the clan mechs are already fast, giving them an edge when it comes to upgrading their engine sizes and their XL engines are viable in pretty much any build because you either have to core them out through the CT or popsicle them.

[Pariah Devalis]

CG Oglethorpe Kerensky, on 05 January 2013 - 09:21 PM, said:

Lets be clear, the Timberwolf is going to be notably faster than you. Fully skilled, your Marmoset hits around 70kph, the Timberwolf is going to crusing at 90kph with a tigher turn radius and faster torso movements.
Also your Marmoset can be destroyed by losing any one torso section, while the Timberwolf will need either BOTH left and right torso sections destroyed or the center torso making it far harder to take out of the fight.

MWO has shown us that speed is vital and the clan mechs are already fast, giving them an edge when it comes to upgrading their engine sizes and their XL engines are viable in pretty much any build because you either have to core them out through the CT or popsicle them.

"Lets be clear," really? Gonna use that to set the tone of the post? OK.

Let us be clear: The IM with a 300 extra light engine travels at 76 with speed tweak. The Timberwolf will be booking at around 94 (86) kph, but I already stated that it will be faster, so either way this point is moot. This is a given that the Omni will be faster. I do not know about you, but I have no issue shooting a mech traveling at 90 KPH with a fair degree of reliability. The speed alone may allow for a positional advantage if you know where the enemy is before they see you, but all fights tend to turn into brawls sooner rather than later. The mobility advantage will be there, but there will be a definite lack of usable (IE: not tied up in heat management) firepower when compared to an IS battlemech. I will, however, concede that the raw speed of the mechs are staggering after speed tweak, considering it is a 75 ton heavy mech.

Let us also be perfectly crystal clear: You cannot upgrade that clan engine, or downgrade it. You cannot upgrade or downgrade the armor levels on the 'wolf. The only thing you can modify are the weapons because when it comes to Omnimechs you are only allowed to play with the podspace, lest you release the "magical omni-stuff" inside the mech. So that 27.5 tons of space? That is all you have to work with.

Really, I did not make those rules up. I wish I did not. If you ask me, it makes customizing them rather dull, actually.

Now, IF, and that is an if worth questioning, PGI decides to stick with the rules of battlemech construction when it comes to Omnimechs, then the clans are kinda sorta not going to be anywhere near as good as everyone and their mother expects them to be. However, if PGI decides to, as was suggested on the google+ discussion group, throw the omnimech construction rules out of the window, and combine omni-slots with the otherwise expressly forbidden full internal customization... well then, this puts clan machines where everyone hoped (or feared) they would be, since you can then create more pod space by taking tonnage out of the engine, built in heatsinks, secondary electronics, or armor. You could create more pod space by ablating tonnage from other parts of the mech.

However, again, that hinges on an if. Since PGI stuck pretty close to the TT rules for a great deal of things (ECM and double armor not withstanding), it is a worrying if to consider.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 05 January 2013 - 10:28 PM.

[Christof Romulus]

Something tells me that PGI might just leave it like TT.

The ability to bring whatever you want on your mech, instead of the hardpoints, is the advantage of Omni mechs, and NOT ONLY THAT, clan weaponry is on every level, Lighter (less tons to achieve the same effect), more powerful (greater effect for similar components) and SMALLER (utilizes less critical locations).

Example:
Inner Sphere ER Large Laser:
Heat 12
Damage 8 (Currently 9 in game, but 8 from cannon)
Max Range: 19
Tons: 5
Critical slots: 2

Clan ER Large Laser
Heat 12
Damage 10
Max Range 25
Tons: 4
Critical slots: 1

Heck, for 1 critical slot I would have large lasers in my atlas's center torso...
Most notably is the unmitigated power of the ER PPC (Clans do not have non ER versions of weapons):

Inner Sphere ER PPC:
Heat: 15 (in game currently I believe this is 13)
Damage: 10
Max range: 23
Tons: 7
Critical slots: 3

Clan ER PPC:
Heat: 15
Damage: 15 (Equal to the Gauss rifle with inf ammo)
Max range: 23
Tons: 6
Critical slots: 2

Don't even look at the difference between pulse laser technology...

[dal10]

heat dissipation becomes an issue with the equipment however, the lack of regular weapons is going to cook the clans, light clan tech will have limited to no bonus besides range as they run out of weight before crits. however the extra heat generated means that they can't afford to use the lighter clan weapons in greater numbers as they would fry themselves.

[Seth]

I think a Timberwolf moving at 90 kph and equipped with a couple of ER Medium Lasers and dual UAC 20s (just firing in single mode) could match a slower Cataphract with two gauss rifles and 3 medium lasers. The Timber Wolf could even simply mirror the Cataphract's loadout of 2 Gauss and 3 Medium Lasers (ER versions too) and still move faster and carry more armor.

However, I do see the point that OmniMechs might be too restricted when compared to the quick and free reconfiguration on normal BattleMechs.

On a side note, I am having trouble finding an Clan Omni that carries ECM. It's possible that none of the Clan Omnis will carry ECM since it is counter to their sense of honorable combat.

[Thorn Hallis]

To reflect the tactical adaptability of Omni'Mechs I'd suggest to allow the pilot to switch to a variant of his choice after the map is loaded.

[Daneiel]

Seth to help you -> Phantom .
I am really worried about the omni-mechs , most of the clan mechs are at the max armor and free tonnage (using FF armor and endo-steel ) so they need to downgrade to free tonnage or criticals for more ammo or something else , also the OP has a good point about the range and weapon tonnage (if i remember right for the same weight the clan mechs has more free tonnage ) but in the current freedom in the mech lab it can become the opposite , at the current system we can end at the way that IS tech is better then the clan tech and if the honor system is added for the clans that will make them at really great disadvantage !

[CG Oglethorpe Kerensky]

Pariah Devalis, on 05 January 2013 - 10:20 PM, said:

Let us be clear: The IM with a 300 extra light engine travels at 76 with speed tweak. The Timberwolf will be booking at around 94 (86) kph, but I already stated that it will be faster, so either way this point is moot. This is a given that the Omni will be faster. I do not know about you, but I have no issue shooting a mech traveling at 90 KPH with a fair degree of reliability.

And you completely ignore the fact that because you are slower he will have an easier time shooting YOU, if you have no problem shooting something going 90, he is going to have an even more trivial time shooting something going at 70. And you also fail to understand that because of the speed difference he can more easily dictate the range of the engagement and if the engagement happens at all.

Quote

The speed alone may allow for a positional advantage if you know where the enemy is before they see you, but all fights tend to turn into brawls sooner rather than later.

Not when the enemy is faster than you and decides not to.

Quote

The mobility advantage will be there, but there will be a definite lack of usable (IE: not tied up in heat management) firepower when compared to an IS battlemech.

Bigger engines, more heatsinks store in them, and their ES/FF/HS lack of bulk means they can pack more heatsinks. You should be more worried about your own firepower.

Quote

Let us also be perfectly crystal clear: You cannot upgrade that clan engine, or downgrade it. You cannot upgrade or downgrade the armor levels on the 'wolf. The only thing you can modify are the weapons because when it comes to Omnimechs you are only allowed to play with the podspace, lest you release the "magical omni-stuff" inside the mech. So that 27.5 tons of space? That is all you have to work with.

And that is what other variants are for.

Edited by CG Oglethorpe Kerensky, 06 January 2013 - 11:51 AM.

[Alex Wolfe]

If MWO goes puretech (no mix-matching Clan and IS technology), then Omnimechs have nothing to worry about. Even with less pod space, they will enjoy lighter weapons and less fragile XL engines, resulting in a machine that's both fast, resilient AND hard-hitting, while IS mechs could only have two of the three. Such matches would require a proper matchmaker though, so that Clan mechs aren't matched against IS mechs only by weight.

If MWO allows mixtech, then - assuming Omnis cannot swap non-pod mounted equipment - they could indeed be at a disadvantage, since Elmo in that example could easily mount three Clan gauss rifles and non-volatile Clan XL engine, something MC would not be able to do. All you'd need to do is find a Battlemech with decent hardpoints, gut it, then load choc-full of Clan tech... and it's very possible it'd leave an Omni of similar weight behind. I'm hoping it won't ever happen.

Mixtech would be very problematic for a number of reasons, the ugliest of which would manifest in Cataphracts being superior to Thors, and Ravens to Pumas.

quasihuman, on 05 January 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

Our IS mechs in MWO are essentially "omni" mechs since we can reconfigure them between battles.

There is no timeframe in MWO. "Between battles" could be a day or a week or a month apart. Plenty of time to refit a Battlemech.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 06 January 2013 - 12:08 PM.

[IceSerpent]

@OP: Your initial premise is not entirely correct. There are no TT rules that forbid modification of IS mechs - it's up to the group you play with. Technically, all mechs in TT are "omni" to a certain extent, that extent being determined by "house rules". The only strict rules apply to omnies, as you've already mentioned.

Now, in general BT lore things are a bit different: regular (non-omni) mechs are very difficult to modify, it takes lots of time and money to do an extensive refit. Omnies can easily swap weapon pods in the field, provided that you have appropriate pods laying around and that appropriate pods exist to begin with. The implication is that you can't put whatever you want on a given omni, you can only pick from a certain set of pods available.

You are absolutely correct about range advantage being moot on current MWO maps though.

[Seth]

daneiel varna, on 06 January 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

Seth to help you -> Phantom .

Sorry, I should have said I was having trouble finding an ECM equipped Omni that was available at the time of Operation Revival. Before that point, the Clans had not adjusted their tactics to combat the Inner Sphere and still shunned the use of ECM.

[GBizzle]

Christof Romulus, on 06 January 2013 - 12:31 AM, said:

Something tells me that PGI might just leave it like TT.

The ability to bring whatever you want on your mech, instead of the hardpoints, is the advantage of Omni mechs, and NOT ONLY THAT, clan weaponry is on every level, Lighter (less tons to achieve the same effect), more powerful (greater effect for similar components) and SMALLER (utilizes less critical locations).

Example:
Inner Sphere ER Large Laser:
Heat 12
Damage 8 (Currently 9 in game, but 8 from cannon)
Max Range: 19
Tons: 5
Critical slots: 2

Clan ER Large Laser
Heat 12
Damage 10
Max Range 25
Tons: 4
Critical slots: 1

Heck, for 1 critical slot I would have large lasers in my atlas's center torso...
Most notably is the unmitigated power of the ER PPC (Clans do not have non ER versions of weapons):

Inner Sphere ER PPC:
Heat: 15 (in game currently I believe this is 13)
Damage: 10
Max range: 23
Tons: 7
Critical slots: 3

Clan ER PPC:
Heat: 15
Damage: 15 (Equal to the Gauss rifle with inf ammo)
Max range: 23
Tons: 6
Critical slots: 2

Don't even look at the difference between pulse laser technology...

Aren't LRMs even more one sided can't quite remember the stats but can't you basically fit a Clan LRM 20 in the same space as an inner sphere LRM 10?

[Alex Wolfe]

Seth, on 06 January 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

Sorry, I should have said I was having trouble finding an ECM equipped Omni that was available at the time of Operation Revival. Before that point, the Clans had not adjusted their tactics to combat the Inner Sphere and still shunned the use of ECM.

Keep in mind that the current ECM (which doubles as an AoE, imperfect null signature system for some reason) would be shunned by Clans even more than the "lore" ECM is. Clans don't go radar invisible. They use the scrambling ECM somehow, but not the null sig.

I hope by the time of invasion proper, either ECM will be reworked or unavailable to Omnimechs. I'm not looking forward to stealth Mad Cats tearing through the map at 90 kph.

[Pariah Devalis]

ECM on an omni? Look to the Hellbringer. People bash it, but for what it is, it packs both ECM and BAP. I can understand its pitiful armor levels being extremely detrimental on the table top, but given it is loaded with nearly 30 tons of pod space, including two clan ERPPC, plus has speed and ECM, it can be a very scary mech, indeed.

CG Oglethorpe Kerensky, on 06 January 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

And that is what other variants are for.

Neg. All variants of a given frame only have that mech's maximum podspace allotment to work with. The variants are just preconfigured setups that fit within the constraints of the podspace system.

Also, when the firepower advantage is clearly in the lighter IS machine's favor, I would be more preoccupied with trying to mitigate damage as the Clan machine then the IS machine being preoccupied with its firepower. AFAIK, the only Clan mech up to 75 tons that CAN fit two gauss rifles and supply it with enough ammunition to last a game in 3050 is the Hellbringer because of its ridiculously large pods. 12 tons each, 24 tons, 3 tons of ammo per gun, 30 tons. 30 tons to equip a twin gauss mech with sufficient ammo to last a typical game. Hellbringer only has 29.5 tons, so 5 tons may work, but then you start to count every shot, and without any backup weapons you are useless if you run out.

And, while yes, Clan mechs can load up on more energy weapons easily, the corresponding heat hit with the game's current heat implementation makes that far less viable then you would think. For example, imagine the swayback if it had nothing but C-ERMED. That would be putting out the heat of, what, 12-14 medium lasers, depending on how PGI handles it? You can fire once, then you are in heat management mode for the rest of the fight, which means that only about half your weapons are effectively useful until heat levels become manageable again. Incidentally, the Nova Prime will be a nightmare to manage, with more weapons then it can actually use.

So, we will have two immediate issues when the Clans arrive:
1) How do they balance effective firepower over time, given the added heatload of the clan weapon systems?
2) How will they manage the Omni system?

As much as I hate to point to MW4 as a place to look, at least it might offer a partial solution to #2, and offer PGI ways to market multiple variants of a chassis. Combine omni-slots with fixed type slots, and let us tinker with the insides of the mech, even though it absolutely flies in the face of the tabletop rules. Some chassis pre-set variants would have omni slots in certain places and fixed, like energy, missile, or ballistic slots in certain places.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 07 January 2013 - 07:08 AM.

[Metalfyre]

Perhaps one possible compensation would be for Clan DHS to work as true DHS (i.e 200% efficiency vs the current IS DHS). Even if you cannot add to the number of heatsinks already in the chassis, this would immediately put most Clan 'Mechs at least on par with current IS 'Mechs' heat efficiencies.

quasihuman, on 05 January 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

Our IS mechs in MWO are essentially "omni" mechs since we can reconfigure them between battles.

For some of you misinformed people:
The Omni system does away with the restriction hard points place on IS 'Mechs. IS 'Mechs are NOT Omnis 'because you can tweak them however you want in the Mechlab,' However you tweak it, a CTF-1X is still only going to allow you to put 5 energy and 1 ballastic weapon. An Omni with 6 Omni hard points will be able to swap between 6 missile weapon loadouts to 2 ballastic, 4 energy weapon loadouts. This is what an Omni is all about; versatility.

[IceSerpent]

Metalfyre, on 07 January 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

For some of you misinformed people:
The Omni system does away with the restriction hard points place on IS 'Mechs. IS 'Mechs are NOT Omnis 'because you can tweak them however you want in the Mechlab,' However you tweak it, a CTF-1X is still only going to allow you to put 5 energy and 1 ballastic weapon. An Omni with 6 Omni hard points will be able to swap between 6 missile weapon loadouts to 2 ballastic, 4 energy weapon loadouts. This is what an Omni is all about; versatility.

You got something to back this up? Namely, the statement that PGI is going to give MW4-style "omni hardpoints" to omnimechs?

[Pariah Devalis]

The tabletop definition of omnimechs not enough of a definition?

The entire omni concept is to allow the quick swap of any omni module with any other omni module. An omni gauss can be swapped with an omni ERPPC. Think of the module as a weapon and all associated hardware like capacitors, coolant lines, electrical inputs/outputs. Tonnage is still an important consideration of course.

The logical translation of that to mwo is that omni hard points will be used. The omni concept is fantastic but comes with the severe drawback of a fixed configurable tonnage alottement.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 07 January 2013 - 09:17 AM.