116 replies to this topic

[Titan Osis]

DocBach, on 31 January 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:

Oh. I see. ECM is balanced because it only makes a third of the weapons in the game completely useless. But we can still use the other two-thirds to shoot the enemy 'Mech, so balance has been achieved. Roger that.

ECM affects 5 weapons (if you count ALL sizes of LRM's) There are 28 weapons listed in the game (26 if you remove TAG and NARC) so lets do a little math.

26/5 = 5.xx or 1/5th of the weapons, you have plenty of options.

[DocBach]

You have missiles, ballistics, and energy weapons. ECM affects SRM's with Artemis, LRMs, and Streaks. ECM affects a third of the weapon classes in the game.

Edited by DocBach, 31 January 2013 - 04:44 PM.

[Titan Osis]

DocBach, on 31 January 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

I don't understand how you insist in game stats have any relevance to game balance. Your statements make it pretty obvious you don't have a real concept of it. But if stats prove who is right in determining if a game is balanced...



...I have better stats so my argument is more valid.

Just so you know -- more than just ECM needs to be balanced. But trying to balance broken mechanics like LRM's by introducing a broken mechanic like ECM just made things way more broke.

Great! obviously you have no problem with game play. Why is ECM a problem then?

[Wolfways]

PrestonCDawg, on 31 January 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

Like what? Force fields? there is no such thing in battle tech/mechwarrior.

There's also no such thing as a Guardian ECM that stops missiles acquiring a lock.

Quote

Also, for those of you arguing post up your stats to show me how much you know about balance and gaming.

lol okay. For me, that sentence just invalidated anything you have to say.

[Titan Osis]

DocBach, on 31 January 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

You have missiles, ballistics, and energy weapons. ECM affects SRM's with Artemis, LRMs, and Streaks. ECM affects a third of the weapon classes in the game.

Dumb fire missiles should have their own category then so 1/4 at the most. There are still plenty of options.

[DocBach]

PrestonCDawg, on 31 January 2013 - 04:45 PM, said:

Great! obviously you have no problem with game play. Why is ECM a problem then?

Because ECM is a broken mechanic that could have been implemented in ways that expanded gameplay instead of narrowing it immensely? ECM has become the center point around which this game now revolves around and what it has done to the gameplay has me playing almost alone. My group use to have near a hundred players nightly, but the funneling of playstyle ECM creates most of them decided this game was no longer fun and bounced to other games that balance things better.

[p4r4g0n]

Band-aid on top of another band-aid to avoid a fundamental issue is never going to be fair. Why on earth would I spend C-Bills and hard earned XP on a supposed counter to a band-aid to a fundamental problem when that fundamental could be addressed some day when they run out of more band-aid(s)?

Fix boating .... of anything then we can do away with the uber ECM that fundamentally changed the entire game in both general and specific ways and then maybe the sensor modules will start making sense (to me at least).

Edit: a i d s is apparently filtered

Edited by p4r4g0n, 31 January 2013 - 04:54 PM.

[Wolfways]

PrestonCDawg, on 31 January 2013 - 04:46 PM, said:

Dumb fire missiles should have their own category then so 1/4 at the most. There are still plenty of options.

Players should have the option of using any weapons they like without having to consider that one of those weapons will be made useless by a piece of equipment on enemy mechs.

Tbh though i'm not surprised that there are players who are happy with the way ECM works. There has always been a...let's say less intelligent crowd who wanted to remove the so-called "No-skill lock-on weapons" from the game. Well now they've mostly accomplished that.

Edited by Wolfways, 31 January 2013 - 04:55 PM.

[DocBach]

I'm starting to believe the ECM end game strategy for PGI is to counter ECM with more and more modules that cost GXP in an effort to get people to convert regular XP with GXP with MC, as a cash grab. I believe ECM is the start of our pay to win mechanic for MWO - if you don't play for days on end, or give in and pay real money, you don't get an effective counter against a broken mechanic.

[Wolfways]

DocBach, on 31 January 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:

I'm starting to believe the ECM end game strategy for PGI is to counter ECM with more and more modules that cost GXP in an effort to get people to convert regular XP with GXP with MC, as a cash grab. I believe ECM is the start of our pay to win mechanic for MWO - if you don't play for days on end, or give in and pay real money, you don't get an effective counter against a broken mechanic.

Since in CB when PGI's response the the outcry about the K2 having huge ballistics in the torso's was to change the graphics so you can tell it isn't carrying PPC's, i just think PGI doesn't have a clue...unfortunately

[Manny Rhyde]

the only way i can see that ECM would be a counter at this point would be if they bring back repair&rearm and have ECM equipped mechs have a large penalty for having that electronics destroyed/ getting there mechs totaled. PPCs that disrupts ECM would not be enough against lights and fast moving targets.

[SpiralRazor]

Bobzilla, on 31 January 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

So i've read that the sensor range and advance sensor range modules are to be the counter for ECM. As far as missles are concerned, both together add an extra 50m to the window for a total of 90m. I'm not wondering if people think this is enough of a balance or not, just if its fair to have something balanced with something that costs a different currency.
I want to know if people think its a fair balance to charge xp, gxp and cbills for an item that costs cbills, tons and crits?

cant really tell on this one...have to give it a day or two on test.

[Starburster]

DocBach, on 31 January 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:

I'm starting to believe the ECM end game strategy for PGI is to counter ECM with more and more modules that cost GXP in an effort to get people to convert regular XP with GXP with MC, as a cash grab. I believe ECM is the start of our pay to win mechanic for MWO - if you don't play for days on end, or give in and pay real money, you don't get an effective counter against a broken mechanic.

ruh roh...someone is running into one of my tin foil hat theories I had a while back

[Eleshod]

The Guardian ECM Suite was introduced in 2597 by the Terran Hegemony.Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensor.

http://www.sarna.net...rdian_ECM_Suite

Edited by Eleshod, 31 January 2013 - 05:10 PM.

[DocBach]

It says "interfere," not "completely disable and stealth cloak a lance of mechs." By the way, since Sarna is an unlicensed wiki, they had to edit the material, as to not violate copyrights. I'll post the full write up from technical readout 3050 when I'm not on an iPad.

Edited by DocBach, 31 January 2013 - 05:22 PM.

[Znail]

It's a bit strange how MWO totally reverses and twists how things work on the TT when it comes to ECM. On the TT so is all the ECM does is counter advanced items like Artemis, BAP etc, but doesn't do anything against mechs without any such system. In MWO so does ECM have an massive effect and still counters BAP, Artemis etc. BAP barely does anything in MWO, so it would actually be logical if it counters ECM.

It doesn't make sense to have the item that counters others also have the greatest effect by itself.

[Codejack]

More nonsense.

But, I'm not giving any more suggestions until I see some evidence that PGI has any interest in fixing anything.

[DocBach]

The description of ECM from the sourcebooks, instead of a wiki:


Technical Readout: 3050 Revised, pg 196
"The Guardian emits a broad-band signal that interferes with all sonar, radar, UV, IR, and magscan sensors, thus protecting all units in a radius of up to 180 meters by projecting a "cloak" to its enemies. Enemy long-range sensors can find vehicles and 'Mechs within the curtain, but the Guardian obscures the reading and prevents identification. By the time the enemy enters visual range, sensors can sometimes override the jamming, but by this time most pilots rely on their own eyes to track the opposition."

So sensors can get confused as the cloak interferes with data gathering, but it doesn't absolutely block tracking and locking like we currently have in MWO. This is supported by absolutely no rules saying ECM blocks 'Mechs completely out of radar, or interferes with LRM's. In fact, this is what the latest TechManual has to say about LRM's:


"Today’s vehicular-scale missile launchers are a broadly varied weapon class used to deliver clusters of self-propelled—and usually self-guided—munitions to a target. Not to be confused with capital scale missile launchers (or the Arrow IV artillery missile that will be discussed in a later text), the missiles mounted on many BattleMechs and Combat Vehicles are much smaller in size and power, adapted to the electronic noise, limited sensor acuity and effective armor in the tactical battlefield." - TechManual, pg 229

A better way to implement ECM, which would make it more in line with the balance it achieved from the source material, and would still keep it useful (even against missiles), but not incredibly game breaking would be:


-- Disrupt blocks other electronic warfare devices like Beagle, Narc, Artemis, as well as shrouds information on the chassis such as damage and weapons loadout. Also blocks units within the bubble or on the opposite side of a bubble transmit target information, so spotters need to stay out of the bubble. (ref: Total Warfare, pg 134; Technical Readout 3050, pg 196)

-- Counter disrupts other ECM modules in range. (ref: Tactical Operations, pg 99)

-- Ghost Target mode projects false radar signatures the enemy can lock on that makes it more difficult to employ weapons like LRMs. Missile boats will need to cycle through false targets to find the target they are actually trying to shoot, and may even be fooled into shooting at false signatures. (ref: Tactical Operations, pg 100)

-- ECM can use only one mode at a time. (ref: Tactical Operations, pg 100)

Further balance would be to restore the Beagle Active Probe to full capability, as the Beagle can detect boundaries of ECM bubbles (pg 134, Total Warfare), more information from ECM shrouded 'Mechs, as well as identify ghost targets as being false signals (pg 99-100, 224 of Tactical Operations).

Edited by DocBach, 31 January 2013 - 05:54 PM.

[Kousagi]

DocBach, on 31 January 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

The description of ECM from the sourcebooks, instead of a wiki:


Technical Readout: 3050 Revised, pg 196
"The Guardian emits a broad-band signal that interferes with all sonar, radar, UV, IR, and magscan sensors, thus protecting all units in a radius of up to 180 meters by projecting a "cloak" to its enemies. Enemy long-range sensors can find vehicles and 'Mechs within the curtain, but the Guardian obscures the reading and prevents identification. By the time the enemy enters visual range, sensors can sometimes override the jamming, but by this time most pilots rely on their own eyes to track the opposition."

So sensors can get confused as the cloak interferes with data gathering, but it doesn't absolutely block tracking and locking like we currently have in MWO. This is supported by absolutely no rules saying ECM blocks 'Mechs completely out of radar, or interferes with LRM's. In fact, this is what the latest TechManual has to say about LRM's:

Every time you quote this and misuse the words there, its greatly annoying. If your sensors can't Identify a target, how do they even know it is a target? Theres also the answer to this question in your own post. Look at the line right below the one you bold... So Why would the pilots need to track a target visually when their sensors are already doing it for them? ( by your interpretation).

Also, side note. Target data is gathered by visual sensors, So mech type, load out and armor state. Its not something that is sent out by a IFF, cause who in their right mind would broadcast that info for the enemy? Its also not something Radar can pick out.So ECM has nothing to do with target data. Its kinda the reason why, when the the IS first saw the timberwolf their computers classed it as either a marauder or a catapult, Which is what earned it the name Madcat in the IS.

Edited by Kousagi, 31 January 2013 - 06:56 PM.

[Titan Osis]

Sounds like its acting exactly as intended except for this:
-- Ghost Target mode

Which doesn't matter.