91 replies to this topic

[Karl Berg]

MischiefSC, on 06 February 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

So here's a question - if you're a competitive player with a high Elo rating is there a way for you to easily get into less competitive matches?

Not officially. If you're a very strong player who consistently plays well enough to generate a pretty high ELO, then one of the goals of the system is actually to protect the less skilled players from you.

That being said, there are edge cases where we're forced into situations where this might be the case. The system gets less restrictive about matching ELO values the longer you're stuck waiting for a game to fill up, so this is one case where you might get matched against lower ranked players. Also, if you group together with a bunch of lower ranked players the system needs to make some compromises here too. The ELO values are all hidden to you though, so it would be troublesome to pull this off in practice.

[Broceratops]

Karl Berg, on 06 February 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

Not officially. If you're a very strong player who consistently plays well enough to generate a pretty high ELO, then one of the goals of the system is actually to protect the less skilled players from you.

That being said, there are edge cases where we're forced into situations where this might be the case. The system gets less restrictive about matching ELO values the longer you're stuck waiting for a game to fill up, so this is one case where you might get matched against lower ranked players. Also, if you group together with a bunch of lower ranked players the system needs to make some compromises here too. The ELO values are all hidden to you though, so it would be troublesome to pull this off in practice.

isn't there an inherent problem here? which is no matter how hard i try or how half assed i play, i'm going to end up winning half my games?

i cant think of another mmo where there is absolutely no ranking whatsoever.


i mean i guess we'd just be doing a thing like in WoT where win % is everything, but those stats are already way skewed with the pugstomping.

Edited by Broceratops, 06 February 2013 - 05:49 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Karl Berg, on 06 February 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

Not officially. If you're a very strong player who consistently plays well enough to generate a pretty high ELO, then one of the goals of the system is actually to protect the less skilled players from you.

That being said, there are edge cases where we're forced into situations where this might be the case. The system gets less restrictive about matching ELO values the longer you're stuck waiting for a game to fill up, so this is one case where you might get matched against lower ranked players. Also, if you group together with a bunch of lower ranked players the system needs to make some compromises here too. The ELO values are all hidden to you though, so it would be troublesome to pull this off in practice.

That's all I wanted to hear. Thank you. It's not a bad thing to play with people who are a bit up the ladder from you; it's a great way to learn new tricks. No complaints at all.

Broceratops, on 06 February 2013 - 05:47 PM, said:

isn't there an inherent problem here? which is no matter how hard i try or how half assed i play, i'm going to end up winning half my games?

i cant think of another mmo where there is absolutely no ranking whatsoever.


i mean i guess we'd just be doing a thing like in WoT where win % is everything, but those stats are already way skewed with the pugstomping.

Not quite. You'll get better and better as will your opponents. Effectively the challenge of the game will progress as your skill does. As you get better and better the effort to win gets higher and higher. Your playing experience will change up or down over time.

That's not a bad thing. It's also better for your fellow players.

[p4r4g0n]

Logically, I would expect the matchmaking to seek to prioritise matching those with similar Elo ratings then if no equal Elo rated teams are available, match the closest available within a certain fixed band of +/- x%.

If again, no teams are available, the matchmaker would start factoring things like how long you've spent waiting for a match and expand the band by a further =+/- y%.

If I'm an average player in an average team, I think that it would be rare to be roflstomped or roflstomp another team since by definition, average = where most players will be clustered. Roflstomps would be more common I think towards the upper or lower ends of the rating scale.

Not sure why you would expect or want to continue "romping over less experienced players" when Phase 3 MM is in place tho.

Edit: Karl responded already, so ...

Edit 2: To merge second post

Karl Berg, on 06 February 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

..... The ELO values are all hidden to you though, so it would be troublesome to pull this off in practice.

Elo ratings can be inferred from the opponents you are matched up against and comparing notes with other high rated players who will by default be a minority. Even now, there are known players who are acknowledged to be superior pilots so if you get matched with them frequently, you pretty much know you're at the upper end of the scale.

Gaming the matchmaker then becomes easy when you are able to establish that you are probably >2000 Elo rating by just using newly created accounts.

Not sure why anyone would bother currently but who knows .....

Edited by p4r4g0n, 06 February 2013 - 06:04 PM.

[Karl Berg]

p4r4g0n, on 06 February 2013 - 05:55 PM, said:

Logically, I would expect the matchmaking to seek to prioritise matching those with similar Elo ratings then if no equal Elo rated teams are available, match the closest available within a certain fixed band of +/- x%.

If again, no teams are available, the matchmaker would start factoring things like how long you've spent waiting for a match and expand the band by a further =+/- y%.

Yup, this is definitely the intended behaviour for the new system.

p4r4g0n, on 06 February 2013 - 05:55 PM, said:

Elo ratings can be inferred from the opponents you are matched up against and comparing notes with other high rated players who will by default be a minority. Even now, there are known players who are acknowledged to be superior pilots so if you get matched with them frequently, you pretty much know you're at the upper end of the scale.

True, if you're determined enough then it's possible for someone to reconstruct, at least roughly, what relative rankings you might have based on how everyone gets matched up. There is a fair amount of other state involved in matching that you would need to correct for, mech tonnage, matchmaking wait times, game mode selections, player groups, etc.. All of this will make data mining your ELO harder. We didn't do any of this to purposefully try and obfuscate your rankings though, it's all done to try and make the matches more balanced and interesting.

[drinniol]

This thread has been a remarkable example of reasonable discussion! What's going on?

From my experience with Xbox live, which has a similar system of matchmaking, is that when the ranks are visible the players one would expect to be manipulating their rankings only want to do it in an upward direction. When the rankings are invisible - well, it's an exercise in futility, isn't it? It would take many matches to lower your ranking and you would have no indication of success.

Seeing as the other players would be raking in Cbills blowing you apart why discourage it?

[p4r4g0n]

Karl Berg, on 06 February 2013 - 07:01 PM, said:

................... it's all done to try and make the matches more balanced and interesting.

And that pretty much addresses my main concern about new player / solo PUGger retention. Player retention buff ftw.

Errmmm, can we talk about CW now? ... j/k

Edited by p4r4g0n, 06 February 2013 - 11:15 PM.

[HRR Insanity]

Karl Berg, on 06 February 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

In fact we do keep multiple ELO's for each player. For the moment at least it's based off the properties of the mech you're dropping with, rather than your teams structure.

What properties?

Weight class? Tonnage? Weapons?

[jakucha]

Karl Berg, on 06 February 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

Not officially. If you're a very strong player who consistently plays well enough to generate a pretty high ELO, then one of the goals of the system is actually to protect the less skilled players from you.

That being said, there are edge cases where we're forced into situations where this might be the case. The system gets less restrictive about matching ELO values the longer you're stuck waiting for a game to fill up, so this is one case where you might get matched against lower ranked players. Also, if you group together with a bunch of lower ranked players the system needs to make some compromises here too. The ELO values are all hidden to you though, so it would be troublesome to pull this off in practice.

Do you have any ideas for how ELO will work with Community Warfare and capturing territory?

[Budor]

Im really looking forward to this.

[yamishan]

Aidan McRae, on 31 January 2013 - 03:00 PM, said:

An ELO that is based entirely off W/L is not enough for this game. Make it a component, sure, but the most important thing a MechWarrior accomplishes in a match is a Damage Inflicted v. Damage Sustained ratio, or even simplify it to strict Damage inflicted.

ELO should factor in a number of things: relative strength of chassis, relative strength of weaponry, damage inflicted, damage sustained, wins, losses. And that's probably not all-inclusive.

well sure you have damage but what about those in a scouting role who do little to no damage but aid in the team getting more damage or cap points (conquest mode) overall? basing something purely off of damage leads to all the scouts getting stuck together and being useless which i think is a flawed system for a game that uses role warfare

[Znail]

So now that the Elo system is here so can I tell PGI "I told you so!". They managed to step in just about every pitfalll there is that I mentioned in this thread. Although, not even I expected them to code it so that it would disregard weights if it took to long to find matches. One would think they would losen the Elo restrictions instead as that would actually solve the problem.

We got a Staff reply in this thread, but they still failed to head any warnings. It does make one wonder what the point with feedback is.