19 replies to this topic

[Daora Wing]

Hi Mechwarriors,
Next patch (5th Feb) ER Large Laser and Large Pulse Laser will be worked on, nice, but what about Small and Small Pulse Lasers? As I see it there is almost no incentive at all to take one of these lasers at the moment, a Medium Laser is always the better choice for the following reasons:
1. Both lasers have a range of 90/180m which means even a target within short distance is often out of your range.
2. Small Pulse Laser only has slight advantages over normal Small Laser but the weight of a Medium Laser that does way more damage.
I'd really like to see Small and Small Pulse Lasers more often on the battlefield, so here are some suggestions to improve them:
1. Extend the range of normal Small Laser (about 150/300m maybe).
2. Other Pulse Lasers have 2/3 range of the normal Laser, for the Small Pulse Laser that would be 100/200m.
3. Give the Small Pulse Laser a slight damage buff (4 damage instead of 3 maybe)
That are just my first thoughts, maybe there are better options to improve Small Lasers. That's why I want to hear what you think about it, so feel free to put your own suggestions in here.

[Theobald Hauser]

Better RoF, the others stats the same. They're near useless right now, it's sure.

[Stringburka]

Small lasers are fine. They see usage in deliberate and non-suckish builds; there is a niche for them. They're fine. On mechs with more slots than tons (that is, light mechs) they are nice in that they give a fair bit higher DPS per ton (and higher damage per heat) than medium lasers. For a raven, for example, choosing between one ML and two SL is choosing between 2.7 DPS at range 90 or 1.7 dps at range 270.

Small pulse lasers could need a boost though. They don't have any particular draw for me at the moment.

[Daora Wing]

Two small lasers have a higher DPS than one medium laser, that;s right. But the problem is that you have enough tonage to take two medium lasers instead which seems to be much more effective, mainly because of range. Even the Jenner JR-7F with 6 energy hardpoints can take 6 medium lasers without any great disadvantages, the only mech I see using small lasers sometimes is the Hunchback HBK-4P with 9 energy hardpoints. Do you know other effective builds with small lasers because then I would like to use them cause I really like small lasers

[Stringburka]

Daora Wing, on 02 February 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

Two small lasers have a higher DPS than one medium laser, that;s right. But the problem is that you have enough tonage to take two medium lasers instead which seems to be much more effective, mainly because of range.

Two small lasers weigh one ton. Two medium weigh two tons. Light mechs don't have that many tons, and depending on build you might often have to choose between one small laser and two medium lasers. I've used them both as torso lasers for a 2x with medlasers in arms, and in the arms of a 4x with an AC-10. They work.

If you have one ton and two slots, light lasers look pretty good. Likewise, if you have four slots and two tons, it's an interesting choice.
On this build, a valid option is dropping the torso lasers to SL, dropping a heatsink and getting a SRM6 with two tons. That's a very viable build for a 2x (actually the very build I used to get elite ravens, after playing around with a PPC/TAG build and realizing it wasn't useful, at least not with my crappy aiming skills)
Likewise, this is as good as you get with a top-speed AC-10 raven (the heatsink is needed for the engine). That build is pretty weak I realized after playing it for a while though, but it still works decently and small lasers fit it well.
Here you can see them used in a speedy Cicada lighthunter build.

And yes, the hunchback is an excellent example of small laser usefulness.

They're circumstantial compared to medium lasers that can be thrown on almost any build and it will feel good, but they have a niche where they fit well. Their DPS/t is far enough higher than the MLas to be used.

Edited by Stringburka, 02 February 2013 - 03:27 PM.

[Daora Wing]

Of course there are builds with small lasers, but my experience is that the builds with medium lasers deal more damage on average, I think the reason is the very short range of only 90m which allows small lasers to hit only mechs that are really near to you. And honestly, how many small lasers do you see on the battlefield compared to how many medium lasers are used?
But assumed small lasers are fine and I just have to learn how to use them correcly, there are still small pulse lasers remaining which are almost useless (at this point you will not be convincing me of the opposite). Any ideas to make them worthwhile again?

[Stringburka]

I'm not saying they're as common, not at all. A minor boost wouldn't hurt them, but I'm saying there isn't a huge need for it - it's still a weapon that is used with decent frequency. I see more SL than I see, for example, miniguns, flamers, AC-2's, AC-5's, SRM2's and LRM5's, but it might be that I've missed stuff.
If one were to sort weapons into usefulness categories, I'd probably rate them like this:
Best: Medium Lasers, AC-20, SSRM-2, LRM-15/20, SRM-6
Good: Large Laser, PPC, ERPPC, AC-10, LBX-10, SRM-4, UAC-5, LRM-10
Circumstantial: Small Laser, Medium Pulse Laser, ER Large Laser, AC-5, AC-2, LRM-5, most other
So bad they NEED a boost: Minigun, Flamer, Small Pulse Laser, maybe Large Pulse Laser (seen it so rarely I don't really know)

And I agree on SPL, it's really sucky right now. If one where to make changes that don't violate canon to increase the power of SL/SPL, my suggestion would be dropping the refire rate on SL and SPL to 2 seconds (increasing DPS/t of SL to 3, nearly double that of medium lasers), and dropping the duration on SPL to .1 second (so nearly instantly).
I think this would push small laser up to Good and SPL to circumstantial rating (which I think is fine for such a specific weapon).
Medium laser would have superior damage/hardpoint and range, SL superior DPS/t and SPL would have great accuracy on short ranges.

Note that due to how damage is lost over range, with the current value small lasers deal more damage per ton than medium lasers out to a range of 144 meters even though their optimum range is 90 meters. So it's not as if they can't shoot past 90 meters. With the change mentioned above they'd have greater DPS/t the ML would be better after 161 meters (disregarding alpha damage concentration and damage duration)

[Daora Wing]

I've never said small lasers need a great boost, I was thinking of a little change, something special compared to medium lasers. Decreasing the cooldown/ increasing the rate of fire is a very nice idea I have not thought about. I think this would bring the SL back into some of my mechs, so I agree with that suggestion. Decreasing the duration of SPL sounds interesting, would have to test if SPL are useful again with it. So this is why I posted this suggestion, I was sure someone would have the right idea^^

PS: I agree with most of your ratings for the weapons (yes, Lg Pulse Lasers are really bad), would add Gauss Rifle to "Best", SRM2 to "bad" (I think SSRM2 is always the better choice), but I would drop LBX to "Circumstantial" cause it's not as good as normal AC-10.

[Flapdrol]

Only change I'd like to see is a heat nerf for small pulse lasers. Right now they do 3 damage and 3 heat. A small laser is lighter, also does 3 damage but only 2 heat, same range.

[Stringburka]

Flapdrol, on 03 February 2013 - 04:01 AM, said:

Only change I'd like to see is a heat nerf for small pulse lasers. Right now they do 3 damage and 3 heat. A small laser is lighter, also does 3 damage but only 2 heat, same range.

I think this is unlikely as I believe heat values and damage values are as canon. But yes, it'd be nice.

Daora Wing, on 03 February 2013 - 03:45 AM, said:

PS: I agree with most of your ratings for the weapons (yes, Lg Pulse Lasers are really bad), would add Gauss Rifle to "Best", SRM2 to "bad" (I think SSRM2 is always the better choice), but I would drop LBX to "Circumstantial" cause it's not as good as normal AC-10.

You're right on SRM. I'd peg Gauss as "good" since it's really dangerous to have in close range due to fragility/blowing up. With LBX I believe as long as cravens and similar are as common as they are, LBX is about equal to AC-10. Both are weapons that you never feel are meaningless - they both pack a fat punch - and AC-10 is superior against slower mechs and at range while LBX is superior against fast/light mechs and easier to fit (D-DC with 2xLBX in right torso, yum!).

When ECM gets nerfed and netcode fixed I believe lights won't be as common, and LBX will move down to "circumstantial".

[Furniture]

Stringburka, on 03 February 2013 - 04:18 AM, said:

I think this is unlikely as I believe heat values and damage values are as canon. But yes, it'd be nice.

None of the laser heat values are canon, they are all increased as PGI's response to fear of boating. The small lasers produce 1 heat on TT, and the pulse lasers produce 2. Med Lasers produce 3 heat, not 4. Med Pulse lasers produce 4 heat, not 5. Etc. All of the smaller size lasers have their heat increased. The only thing that is canon on most of the lasers is the damage per shot.

[Stringburka]

Furniture, on 03 February 2013 - 04:27 AM, said:

None of the laser heat values are canon, they are all increased as PGI's response to fear of boating. The small lasers produce 1 heat on TT, and the pulse lasers produce 2. Med Lasers produce 3 heat, not 4. Med Pulse lasers produce 4 heat, not 5. Etc. All of the smaller size lasers have their heat increased. The only thing that is canon on most of the lasers is the damage per shot.

Oh, didn't know that. Cool, one learns something new every day
Then dropping SL back to one heat and SPL to 2 heat seems like a good way to balance them. Would make SPL the heat efficient version of a ML.

[Antarius]

Daora Wing, on 03 February 2013 - 01:10 AM, said:

Of course there are builds with small lasers, but my experience is that the builds with medium lasers deal more damage on average, I think the reason is the very short range of only 90m which allows small lasers to hit only mechs that are really near to you. And honestly, how many small lasers do you see on the battlefield compared to how many medium lasers are used?
But assumed small lasers are fine and I just have to learn how to use them correcly, there are still small pulse lasers remaining which are almost useless (at this point you will not be convincing me of the opposite). Any ideas to make them worthwhile again?

you see more medlasers than LL or PPCs, are there broken too? Medlaser is the most common weapon.
SL got a little setback by the Slot-system of MWO, if you only have 2Energie slots it makes more sense to put 2meds in than smalls, but smalls shouldnt be primary arment (except maybe with the hunchy) they are addition. Put it in if you have mostly longrange weapons like PPCs or LRMs, to have a bit of defensive power in melee but you dont want to sacrifice to much to weapons you mostly dont want to use, because you are a longrange Mech. I had 3SL in a Awsome build with erPPCs, they do enough heat, but i didnt want to give away free energie slots, so i put the weapon in with the best ton-dmg-heat-ratio the small-laser, better with normal PPCs, SL start to get usefull where PPCs get useless. Yes they do less damage than a med, has less range, but the tonnage i saved from using SL instead of ML went into heatsinks to keep my primary arment running.


SPL... yeah they are realy bad. Not a great benefit to get the damage out a bit faster for so many disadvanteges.

[Daora Wing]

As I said above, I didn't want to say that small lasers are useless, I'd just like to have them improved slightly and asked for ideas. Increasing the RoF or decreasing the heat (did not know heat values are not canon either) are nice ways to do what I wanted to be done, so the problem seems to be solved for me.
(I know what small lasers are used for, you don't have to tell me after more than 2000 matches )

[Texugo87]

Random thought

What if small lasers/pulse lasers only took up half a hard point? but still the same slots, weight, etc.

[DocBach]

You guys must have missed closed beta.

[Volthorne]

DocBach, on 03 February 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

You guys must have missed closed beta.

Ohdeargodno. Don't remind me about the Turbo 4Ps that alpha-struck nonstop because they boated SLas up the wazoo.

[Stringburka]

DocBach, on 03 February 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

You guys must have missed closed beta.

Saw most of it but don't think it was that big of a deal. SL swaybacks where worse back then because of netcode being so bad you could hardly hit a medium from a meter away, and since then a lot has happened. But even back then they wheren't that big of an issue IMO, not worse than cravens or trollmandos or streakcats and I don't think those are that bad either.

[MechWiz]

Other than the cool sound the small pulse laser is a disadvantage over the regular small laser. Compare the two specs side by side and you will see it is a disadvantage to buy the small pulse lasers.

[Sable Dove]

Agree that SL needs longer range. I was thinking 270m or so.
That would mean the SPL would get 180m range.

My suggestion:
Recycle to 1.75s, from 2.25s.
Damage remains at 3.
Heat to 2.7 from 3.

DPS becomes 1.33 from 1.09
HPS becomes 1.20 from 1.09