42 replies to this topic

[Homeless Bill]

TL;DR: Make the UAC excel at burst damage instead of being awesome when you're lucky. Change them to have a low initial chance of jamming that increases with each double-shot.

The UAC5 is currently both better and worse than the AC5 because your fate rests on luck alone. Sometimes, you will get an uninterrupted, 10-second stream of punishment and put over 1000 damage on the board. Other games, you'll keep jamming on the first shot until you die. It certainly has a gimmick, but I would argue that luck is a bad one.

My proposed change is to make Ultra Autocannons excel at burst damage but lag behind in constant damage over standard Autocannons. To accomplish this, Ultra Autocannons would have a progressively larger chance of jamming with each double-shot fired in succession. Example (and these numbers will have to be balanced; this is only a very rough demonstration):
1st Shot: 0%
2nd Shot: 15%
3rd Shot: 30%
4th Shot: 45%
5th Shot: 60%
6th Shot: 75%
7th Shot: 90%

I think the best way to implement it would be similar to the heat system, with each double-tap increasing jam chance by whatever amount (15 or 20%) and jam chance dissipating over time (and when the weapon jams). It could be done several other ways, and I'm not here to argue about the implementation; I'm only here to fight for this as a general direction. If you have a better idea for how it should be done, post away.

If you're against this change, please explain why. I'm truly mystified as to why people think "randomly better or worse" is a good role for a weapon.

Edited by Homeless Bill, 04 February 2013 - 01:39 PM.

[Nathan Foxbane]

Still better than the TT. On any double tap you had the same chance to jam and it jammed for the rest of the game or in a scenario, until you could get it repaired. Also you proposed jamming mechanics are the jamming mechanics for RACs.

Edited by Nathan Foxbane, 04 February 2013 - 01:07 PM.

[Chief 117]

I like the way you propose it OP, the current system is just wrong.

[Warlune]

I think the jam chance should increase every time you fire the UAC within 2 seconds of each shot

[Vulkan]

I fully endorse this, made an identical suggestion in another thread a while ago.

As it is I can't justify using UAC5's because the jam mechanic is just plain awful.

[Homeless Bill]

Unfortunately, we won't have RACs until the 3060s. I guess I'll have to stick with machine guns until then =P

I just want someone to explain to me why "may be randomly better or may be randomly worse" is a good role for any weapon (besides a troll weapon). My proposed change would make it flat-out better than standard autocannons in a certain role (burst damage), and flat-out worse in others (continuous fire support). Why use two sporks when you could have a spoon and a fork?

[EmperorMyrf]

I made a thread about this issue long ago in the closed beta forums (before the jam was implemented) and this is how I felt it should work as well. On average be as effective as an AC/5, in bursts be as effective as an AC/10.





The first bunch of values is the raw jam chance, dependent on how many double shots you've fired previously. The second bunch of values is the chance of firing that many consecutive shots without a jam. The different curve orders are just suggestions for jamming schemes, though I think I favor the 2nd or 3rd order curves.

The math for jam length will likely need updating, but the rest shouldn't be any different than when I first calculated it. Just statistics after all.

[Thorstine]

I like the idea of increasing the recycle time to 1.5s and decreasing the jamming chance. This would give it a respectable DPS of 5 when in double tap mode and 3.33 single fire mode. And decrease the jamming chance by about half of what it is or at least make it some like the OP suggested.

[Lt Zwicka Greengold]

I agree with Homeless..I love the UAC5 but the first shot jamming is very frustrating.. It is the only weapon that can break so this feature needs to be thought out very carefully. Clearly random does not fit this description.. remember you already pay a weight, heat and ammo premium in your build if you use them

[Vapor Trail]

This is probably better saved for RACs, because it's pretty much how they work. The more rounds you fire in a given time period (a TT round) the greater the chance of jamming... and unlike UACs, RACs were built to be able to unjam in the field. So they're likely to be more forgiving than UACs when jammed.

The high chance of a UAC jam in MWO compared to TT is compensation for the fact that a UAC jam in TT is permanent.

Edited by Vapor Trail, 04 February 2013 - 02:21 PM.

[Homeless Bill]

Vapor Trail, on 04 February 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

This is probably better saved for RACs, because it's pretty much how they work. The more rounds you fire in a given time period (a TT round) the greater the chance of jamming... and unlike UACs, RACs were built to be able to unjam in the field. So they're likely to be more forgiving than UACs when jammed.

The high chance of a UAC jam in MWO compared to TT is compensation for the fact that a UAC jam in TT is permanent.

So we're going to pass on weapon balance because it might make equipment 10 years out slightly redundant?

Again, why is luck a good distinguishing factor between two weapons? Why is forcing them into two separate weapon roles a bad idea? I just want to understand the thinking of anyone that believes the current randomness is good game design.

Also, TT is not a valid answer to my argument. As you yourself stated, they don't work like TT now.

Edited by Homeless Bill, 04 February 2013 - 02:28 PM.

[BlackSquirrel]

Isn't the nature of jamming random in general?

Isn't that the whole downside to the UAC? That it can jam thus having a point to the ac 5? The jamming mechanic isn't suppose to be fun...

[Sean Lang]

Make it a player controlled aspect, skill based. Random should not be apart of this system.

[Homeless Bill]

BlackSquirrel, on 04 February 2013 - 02:27 PM, said:

Isn't the nature of jamming random in general?

Isn't that the whole downside to the UAC? That it can jam thus having a point to the ac 5? The jamming mechanic isn't suppose to be fun...

It's not about it being fun. It's about two different weapons having two different roles. Again, the UAC is both one of the best weapons and completely useless depending on how lucky you get. Why is that good game balance?

If you're going to argue realism, please let me know how that works out in other games. Balance / fun > realism. Look at how many people play ArmA compared to any other shooter, and you'll see that most people agree.

[Vapor Trail]

the game design element in question with the UAC is Risk vs Reward. (Same with the RAC incidentally).

You risk having a bad streak with a UAC/5, for the reward of having the good streak...

On average, the UAC/5 is really close to the AC/5 in damage output (slightly worse actually, but only very slightly). However, the difference is truly minor, and the ability to potentially double the damage output over the short term is a pretty potent ability.

[Homeless Bill]

Vapor Trail, on 04 February 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

and the ability to potentially double the damage output over the short term is a pretty potent ability.

This. This is the role I want to emphasize - burst damage. I understand that it's more risky, but to me that just makes it like a slot machine mounted on my arm. I don't see the disadvantage to differentiating the two classes of autocannons.

[Roland]

Vulkan, on 04 February 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

As it is I can't justify using UAC5's because the jam mechanic is just plain awful.

Just so you know, the UAC5 is currently one of, if not THE best weapon in the game... so, saying you can't justify it because of the jamming is kind of silly.

I mean, currently you can just fire it on cooldown, and it'll never jam, and you're cranking out huge damage.

Quote

Make it a player controlled aspect, skill based. Random should not be apart of this system.

It's currently player controlled. If you don't fire it while it's recycling, it will never jam. If you want, you have the ability to double your damage output, but run the risk of jamming the gun... which is exactly how it worked in TT.

The OP's suggestion is closer to how it works in TT, in that the chance of a jam starts small and increases over time, but at the same time if you are going to make the gun more forgiving to use, then you may need to include the jamming mechanics from TT to balance it out.. which is that when the gun jams, it doesn't unjam. It's jammed FOREVER. And I don't think folks will like that.

Ultimately, the current implementation of UAC5's is quite good in my opinion.. They are immensely powerful weapons.

[DeadlyNerd]

ultras will get a normal firing mode for holding down the mouse button and double mode for double tapping. That should alleviate most of the current problems.

[Volume]

Should never jam on the first shot.

[BlackSquirrel]

I dont have an issue with the randomness of it. I don't see random as a bad mechanic.

Luck or unlucky can make things interesting.