42 replies to this topic

[Phaesphoros]

Alright, DeadlyNerd was faster than me. Nevertheless:

I'd suggest another approach, but first I've to admit I'm not a regular user of UACs.

First of all, the UAC/5 IS a better AC/5. Range, cool-down (for single-shots), therefore DPS is better. Therefore I think the problem is rather how you trigger the double-shoots:
AFAIK, the UAC only jams when firing the second round during cool-down. And, IIRC, when holding down the fire-button, the UAC will double-shoot.

Scenario 1: You're at the slope of the volcano in Caustic. You peek over the crater rim and want to get as much DPS as possible before retreating.
Scenario 2: You're in a circle of equals and both you and your opponent are still in pretty good shape. So you want to have a steady stream of bullets. When its armor is stripped, you switch to double-shoots to get it down fast.

Addendum: If you have only one UAC as your main weapon (e.g. CN9, RVN), jamming is extremely risky. So unless you have a chance to take cover, you probably don't want to double-shoot.

When you don't have much experience with the UAC, you don't intuitively know when it has cooled down, so you unintentionally do double-shots. According to Ohmwrecker, the cool-down is about 1.1 s, but that also means you have to press the button each second for single shots, twice every second for double-shots.

For me, double-shoots are alright when holding down the fire button - but only if I have 2 UACs, where at least one of them keeps firing. But I prefer a std AC/5 e.g. in a CN9, because I can rely on it when holding down the button.
Of course, when you are more skilled / have more experience with the UAC, you can single-shoot quite easily. IMHO, this point is ridiculous. With enough skill, you can work around/with any unintuitive or problematic UI, see the QWOP game. It's pretty simple, isn't it? But not to blow this out of proportion: The current situation isn't bad. It's just frustrating sometimes.

Some suggestions:
- Double-shoot only at double-tapping.
- Double-shoot with another button (e.g. left and right mouse button).
- Switch between modes (nasty IMHO).

[Jacmac]

Homeless Bill, on 04 February 2013 - 01:04 PM, said:

1st Shot: 0%
2nd Shot: 15%
3rd Shot: 30%
4th Shot: 45%
5th Shot: 60%
6th Shot: 75%
7th Shot: 90%

If you're against this change, please explain why. I'm truly mystified as to why people think "randomly better or worse" is a good role for a weapon.

I'm not sure why you would rather have a guaranteed jam by the 4th shot, that is truly mystifying.

[Skadi]

They should change the mechanic to be like MWLL's
Allow me to elaborate:
As you fire you build up a progressive bar, untill you max it out, and which point it jams due to over firing, they could limit the UAC5 to allow 10 shots then it jams.

[Stingz]

Jacmac, on 04 February 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

I'm not sure why you would rather have a guaranteed jam by the 4th shot, that is truly mystifying.

I'd be more horrified at those that can get maximum double-taps off with no jams.

[Wintersdark]

Phaesphoros, on 04 February 2013 - 03:12 PM, said:

AFAIK, the UAC only jams when firing the second round during cool-down. And, IIRC, when holding down the fire-button, the UAC will double-shoot.

In theory. In practice, at least for me, UAC/5's will sometimes jam on the first shot, even when just tapping. I've been wholly unable to use UAC/5's without jamming unless I chainfire them with several other weapons, and even then they sometimes jam on me.

I would be MUCH happier if they changed UAC's to doubleshot only when you release and press the button again, making accidental double shots much more difficult.

As far as I'm concerned, their unstoppable (at least for me) jamming renders them an absolute trash weapon.

DeadlyNerd, on 04 February 2013 - 02:39 PM, said:

ultras will get a normal firing mode for holding down the mouse button and double mode for double tapping. That should alleviate most of the current problems.

Yes, this. Missed it the first time around, sorry

[TopDawg]

The fact of the matter is that the UAC/5 obsoletes the AC/5. I've posted about it a few times, BALANCE AND VARIETY IN MWO, [FEEDBACK] PROPOSED UAC/5 CHANGE to name a couple.

To simply sum them up, the UAC/5 needs a small nerf and the AC/5 needs a small buff. To be honest I don't mind the mechanic of the UAC/5 having the opportunity to do double damage at the risk of jamming (it's just that right now it way outdamages the AC/5 without ever jamming, for only 1 crit slot and 1 ton more).

With that said, I'm not inherently against the OP's idea to make UAC's more bursty and AC's more steady damage, as that gives each their own niche; but I am unsure of the exact measures to go about balancing something like that or what would then prevent bursty items as reigning supreme since there is no way to heal, and sometimes (or at least where lighter armored Mechs are concerned) you simply just won't be able to 'live through' the burst sometimes.

[topgun505]

Not that it should apply here as the % chance would be way to low ... but to give you a comparison ... in TT the UAC (any size) could jam even on the first double-tap. But the % chance was always the same. Snake eyes. Which translated means a 3% chance each time you double-tapped.

The RAC, on the other hand, did have an increasing probability of jamming depending on how fast you decided to spin it up.

[Homeless Bill]

Jacmac, on 04 February 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

I'm not sure why you would rather have a guaranteed jam by the 4th shot, that is truly mystifying.

...I'm not quite sure how that's what you gathered from my example. The example I gave listed less than a 50% chance of jamming on the 4th shot, reaching 90% (and that's where I'd cap it) only on the 7th.

And as I stated directly above it, it's a very rough example only to convey my intent: a low initial chance of jamming that increases with every double-tap. The actual numbers (were they to implement something like this) would presumably be drastically different.

[Vulkan]

Homeless Bill, on 04 February 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

It's not about it being fun. It's about two different weapons having two different roles. Again, the UAC is both one of the best weapons and completely useless depending on how lucky you get. Why is that good game balance?

If you're going to argue realism, please let me know how that works out in other games. Balance / fun > realism. Look at how many people play ArmA compared to any other shooter, and you'll see that most people agree.

To further enforce how unrealistic the current jamming mechanic is, consider this. In the real world if a weapon jammed randomly so often, and indeed after one shot, it would never, EVER be used by any military. Furthermore, jamming is EASY to fix and pretty much non-existant with today's modern weaponry.

[TVMA Doc]

BlackSquirrel, on 04 February 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

I dont have an issue with the randomness of it. I don't see random as a bad mechanic.

Luck or unlucky can make things interesting.

Quite true, not to mention that random events are a huge part of this game. Critical hits are random and can end your match very quickly.

[Homeless Bill]

BlackSquirrel, on 04 February 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

I dont have an issue with the randomness of it. I don't see random as a bad mechanic.

Luck or unlucky can make things interesting.

I don't see random as necessarily bad; luck is an incredibly important factor of the game (everything from the PUGs you drop with to critical hits). I do, however, see it as vastly inferior for weapon balancing.

A burst damage weapon would be great for some builds, and the continuous fire from regular ACs would benefit others. Having a spork and a lucky spork seems redundant to me, but it appears the majority of the community likes the idea of winning big or losing hard.

I'd still like someone to explain why differentiating the two would be bad. Or why my suggestion is inferior to strictly random chance. I realize I'm in the minority here - I just don't understand why. And saying, "it's fine as it is," isn't what I'm looking for. Is it broken? No. Could it be better? Absolutely.

[Khobai]

Ultra Autocannons currently jam way too much. They need to lower the jam rate back to what it was (10%). And then increase the firing cooldown to compensate for the lower jam rate (make it like 1.5 instead of 1.1).

Edited by Khobai, 04 February 2013 - 06:09 PM.

[Wolf Clearwater]

I liked the way ultra AC's worked in MW4, one pull of the trigger was 2 shots fired .25 seconds apart.

[Kanaric]

i like how whiners want to nerf anything they are mad about being killed by into oblivion

[Zerbob]

This once again delves into the often debated "canon vs gameplay" idea. From a gameplay perspective the increasing jam chance makes sense as it does at first seem a more balanced concept. However from a canonical (and honestly more realistic) point of view it does not.

Why does a gun jam in the first place? Well simply put no machine is perfect. While they are built to strict codes there are cases where bad rounds slip through the cracks. What is this slip up? The bullet could be 0.5mm too wide, or there is a small dent, or some other tiny flaw that causes it to jam in the barrel. The jam then needs to be cleared (manually as an automatic system would be too complicated) before the weapon is usable again. The chance of this happening is of course, completely random.

The Ultra Autocannons in TT were used when you felt you needed to fire twice that round while running the risk of that 1/36 jam. You have the weight the potential reward of hitting the enemy twice versus the chance your gun may never work again.

As it stands I find the UAC/5 in MWO works as it should. It has a fairly potential chance to jam (25%) but after a couple of seconds the weapon is usable again. I will definitely admit that the UAC/5 could be nerfed slightly (my suggestion would be increased heat) it is working as intended. If you were to make it so that the chance of jamming increased with consequent shots what about 'Mechs like the CTF-2X and the CTF-IM? These are 'Mechs that fit 2-3 of these weapons and could easily double shot to their heart's content by simply firing a single round salvo every 3rd or 4th shot. Their damage output would increase drastically without a noticeable increase in jamming occurrences.

[Mycrus]

I use multiple uac5s across several builds...

No changes please, might mess with my mojo

[HiplyRustic]

Homeless Bill, on 04 February 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

It's not about it being fun. It's about two different weapons having two different roles. Again, the UAC is both one of the best weapons and completely useless depending on how lucky you get. Why is that good game balance?

Why is it good balance? I'm not sure it isn't self-evident. Those pilots willing to take the risk of having their primary damage dealer(s) jam unexpectedly do so because when they don't jam the wreak havoc in capable hands.

It's pure risk/reward, and that's fun.

For those who don't want the risk, there are AC5s. Yes, it's argh!-worthy when all three UAC5s jam on the first shot, but it's always balanced out when I come motoring up behind someone and burn them down before they knew what hit them...or force an Atlas or Stalker to change course rather than continue to come at me head on.

Edited by HiplyRustic, 04 February 2013 - 06:51 PM.

[Homeless Bill]

Mycrus, on 04 February 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

might mess with my mojo

If this had been the first reply, I would have closed the thread.

HiplyRustic, on 04 February 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

Why is it good balance? I'm not sure it isn't self-evident. Those pilots willing to take the risk of having their primary damage dealer(s) jam unexpectedly do so because when they don't jam the wreak havoc in capable hands.

It's pure risk/reward, and that's fun.

I still don't like it, but you articulate the point very well.

[Grisnir]

BlackSquirrel, on 04 February 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

I dont have an issue with the randomness of it. I don't see random as a bad mechanic.

Luck or unlucky can make things interesting.

this will so much fun, when a or mutiple very lucky Jagermechs tear with 4 uac5 through an entirely enemy team

Edited by Grisnir, 04 February 2013 - 07:38 PM.

[General Taskeen]

Randomness in an FPS game = Ultra-r u htarded. On top of that, Ultra's fire 2 shells. Ultra AC/10's and 20's are going to be epic lulsauce.

All Autocannons should be re-featured with barrels that act as "heat soakers," and thus determines how many shots are fired in succession. Reaching the "critical" heat of the barrel itself would then cause jam. I.E., exactly like Mech Warrior Living Legends.

http://mwomercs.com/...tion-heat-soak/

Edited by General Taskeen, 04 February 2013 - 07:32 PM.