40 replies to this topic

[urmamasllama]

so after reading the joystick and hotas thread i settled on getting myself a 16000m thrustmaster but now that its on its way through the mail i do wonder. how much of a difference am i to expect when playing with this thing

[Az0r]

It's going to make your aim about 1000% worse.

[CrashieJ]

joystick will be mostly used for throttle and movement, you want to stick with the mouse for now since it's very good for pinpointing.

[Hakkukakt]

hi

on first ... you will seem to be bad on aim ^^

but that's need some training before you will do well with joystick => 1-2 week of intensive training


but the most important thing is the immersive impression to really dirving a mecha

for myself i use this :



and this :

[urmamasllama]

Currently I can't pay for a full hotas setup. when I can I'm going for CH products. I've got a three screen setup so for now ill have to settle for that in the immersion department

[Gremlich Johns]

I use a JS with the sensitivity currently at 100%. That makes it a little jumpy so I'm backing it down incrementally by 5% until it feels right. Frankly, the mouse makes the torso swing too quickly considering the weight of it and so stick with the JS. The JS feel more "natural" (insofar as I have only my experience as a Tank gunner to draw on and not a battlemech)

[Loc Nar]

I have a MWO script for the T16000 already. I'm an avid stick using, but unfortunately what people say about sticks is true in general - that it's easier to be accurate and efficient with a mouse than if you are using a normal stick. When I die and spectate, I can immediately spot a stick user and it nearly always makes me cringe, cause I know how hard it is to do what they are doing as well as what they are up against. So long as you use a normal stick/relative inputs, you are definitely playing MWO on 'hard mode'.

My own stick is not normal. I made my own gimbal that moves in pitch/azimuth (pitch/twist) and has no spring return and will stay put in whatever position it is in when I take my hand off it. Due to this unconventional arrangement, I can use absolute inputs with my stick, just like a mouse uses, and this is the key to the whole thing. My stick moves in the same directions as the mech moves so movement is quite natural, and with absolute inputs it's also quite intuitive. Since my stick is being processed as mouse inputs with TARGET (TM's software for our sticks), MWO thinks it is a mouse, as it will your T16000 if you use my script. My setup is much easier to drive a mech than kbm, and not just for me. I have let friends that are very kbm/shooter oriented, and it's much easier for them to use my HOTAS as well, which was quite a surprise to me, even to aim.

Back to the matter at hand; to get a head start on your T16000, install TARGET on your computer (regardless if you use my script or not TARGET is your friend!). If you are interested let me know and I'll send the installation instructions and code. Below is the button mapping pic I made for it. All in game functions are on the stick, but kb/m still active so you can switch back and forth mid game if you want. Or not.

[evilC]

Ooh, I didn't realize you had absolute stick emulation working Loc - nice one.I take it you have to turn off mouse acceleration else it all goes out of synch?

[TyGeR STD]

well, if you are use to playing with a Joystick then it could be good for you, I myself have only played mech games with keyboard and mouse, i have tryed them with a joystick but do not like it. Its all about what you want to use, and what you are good with.

[urmamasllama]

Loc Nar, on 06 February 2013 - 09:38 PM, said:

I have a MWO script for the T16000 already. I'm an avid stick using, but unfortunately what people say about sticks is true in general - that it's easier to be accurate and efficient with a mouse than if you are using a normal stick. When I die and spectate, I can immediately spot a stick user and it nearly always makes me cringe, cause I know how hard it is to do what they are doing as well as what they are up against. So long as you use a normal stick/relative inputs, you are definitely playing MWO on 'hard mode'.

My own stick is not normal. I made my own gimbal that moves in pitch/azimuth (pitch/twist) and has no spring return and will stay put in whatever position it is in when I take my hand off it. Due to this unconventional arrangement, I can use absolute inputs with my stick, just like a mouse uses, and this is the key to the whole thing. My stick moves in the same directions as the mech moves so movement is quite natural, and with absolute inputs it's also quite intuitive. Since my stick is being processed as mouse inputs with TARGET (TM's software for our sticks), MWO thinks it is a mouse, as it will your T16000 if you use my script. My setup is much easier to drive a mech than kbm, and not just for me. I have let friends that are very kbm/shooter oriented, and it's much easier for them to use my HOTAS as well, which was quite a surprise to me, even to aim.



Back to the matter at hand; to get a head start on your T16000, install TARGET on your computer (regardless if you use my script or not TARGET is your friend!). If you are interested let me know and I'll send the installation instructions and code. Below is the button mapping pic I made for it. All in game functions are on the stick, but kb/m still active so you can switch back and forth mid game if you want. Or not.

i love your configuration basically what i wanted to set mine up as. one question am i correct to assume the one set as weapon group 6 is meant to be fire selected group? i had an idea while looking at this. first thing is a plan to have my keyboard nearby for when im first setting up my weapon config so i don't need to waste stick buttons on setup this will allow me to do the following place alpha strike (more of an oh **** button for me) on the hat up, target enemy on hat down. this allows me four stick buttons to be weapons fire and some extra functions to play with. also i would love to have a look at that software ill be recieving the stick in the mail tomorrow. now about what you were saying about removing the spring. how difficult of a diy is this and can it be undone if necessary?

edit after reading over this again i realized what shift layer was and i came up with some even cooler ideas but i am wondering what is the target overlay button? i don't know what that does

TyGeR STD, on 07 February 2013 - 06:14 AM, said:

well, if you are use to playing with a Joystick then it could be good for you, I myself have only played mech games with keyboard and mouse, i have tryed them with a joystick but do not like it. Its all about what you want to use, and what you are good with.

i have a bit of experience playing in pods (most fun i've ever had with MW) honestly thats what i wanted to set up right now but i can't currently afford it

Edited by urmamasllama, 07 February 2013 - 06:40 AM.

[Catamount]

Even extremely elaborate setups of this type, like Turbo Corvair's well-known simpit, just don't stand up to a mouse/kb for the combination of speed/accuracy. Turbo's an extremely good pilot who plays for hours at a time with a HOTAS/Pedal setup, four times a week just in our scheduled 8 man drops, and I haven't even seen him do great feats of marksmanship with that setup type (though in his defense, I did abysmally bad with the thing). General piloting isn't negatively impacted, but aiming sure as hell is.

Will you be able to hit a reasonably quick moving mech? With enough practice, yes, you'll be able to hit a mech somewhere. Will you be running around headshotting people? Far from it. A mouse with low sensitivity gives about the same movement speed as the best you'll achieve with a reasonable joystick setting with about a dozen times the amount of control.

If you're an absolutely exceptionally good pilot, you'll aim about as well as the average mouse/kb user, given enough time. If you're only average, or above average, well, good luck even making reliable CT shots.

Loc Nar, on 06 February 2013 - 09:38 PM, said:

I have a MWO script for the T16000 already. I'm an avid stick using, but unfortunately what people say about sticks is true in general - that it's easier to be accurate and efficient with a mouse than if you are using a normal stick. When I die and spectate, I can immediately spot a stick user and it nearly always makes me cringe, cause I know how hard it is to do what they are doing as well as what they are up against. So long as you use a normal stick/relative inputs, you are definitely playing MWO on 'hard mode'.

My own stick is not normal. I made my own gimbal that moves in pitch/azimuth (pitch/twist) and has no spring return and will stay put in whatever position it is in when I take my hand off it. Due to this unconventional arrangement, I can use absolute inputs with my stick, just like a mouse uses, and this is the key to the whole thing. My stick moves in the same directions as the mech moves so movement is quite natural, and with absolute inputs it's also quite intuitive. Since my stick is being processed as mouse inputs with TARGET (TM's software for our sticks), MWO thinks it is a mouse, as it will your T16000 if you use my script. My setup is much easier to drive a mech than kbm, and not just for me. I have let friends that are very kbm/shooter oriented, and it's much easier for them to use my HOTAS as well, which was quite a surprise to me, even to aim.

Back to the matter at hand; to get a head start on your T16000, install TARGET on your computer (regardless if you use my script or not TARGET is your friend!). If you are interested let me know and I'll send the installation instructions and code. Below is the button mapping pic I made for it. All in game functions are on the stick, but kb/m still active so you can switch back and forth mid game if you want. Or not.

I have to admit, this is a rather interesting approach, but does that mean the margin between the stick being centered, and all the way over, represents the entire range of movement for the torso? It seems to me that would be a rather sensitive control scheme, especially on mechs with a large torso. Do you ever find this to be the case?

Edited by Catamount, 07 February 2013 - 11:21 AM.

[urmamasllama]

Catamount, on 07 February 2013 - 08:22 AM, said:

Even extremely elaborate setups of this type, like Turbo Corvair's well-known simpit, just don't stand up to a mouse/kb for the combination of speed/accuracy. Turbo's an extremely good pilot who plays for hours at a time with a HOTAS/Pedal setup, four times a week just in our scheduled 8 man drops, and I haven't even seen him do great feats of marksmanship with that setup type (though in his defense, I did abysmally bad with the thing). General piloting isn't negatively impacted, but aiming sure as hell is.

Will you be able to hit a reasonably quick moving mech? With enough practice, yes, you'll be able to hit a mech somewhere. Will you be running around headshotting people? Far from it. A mouse with low sensitivity gives about the same movement speed as the best you'll achieve with a reasonable joystick setting with about a dozen times the amount of control.

If you're an absolutely exceptionally good pilot, you'll aim about as well as the average mouse/kb user, given enough time. If you're only average, or above average, well, good luck even making reliable CT shots.

here is the thing though in order for me to do any decent aiming at a target i have had to drop my mouse sensitivity down from 4k to 1.2k this is the first and only game where i felt like high sensitivity made me play worse which by your description makes me think i have a chance of a joystick working out for me. also i don't run snipers well i try to but i can't for some reason i have a really hard time making out targets beyond 800 m either on 3x or 4x let alone pinpointing where i want to hit

Edited by urmamasllama, 07 February 2013 - 10:56 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

Az0r, on 05 February 2013 - 07:54 PM, said:

It's going to make your aim about 1000% worse.

Only if you suck at aiming.

Joystick will make your aim better and improve your tracking & twisting ability by giving perfect smoothness.

If you have talent.

[evilC]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 07 February 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

Only if you suck at aiming.

Joystick will make your aim better and improve your tracking & twisting ability by giving perfect smoothness.

If you have talent.

Sigh. Torso rotation in MWO is relative only - only with hacks like locnar's can you acheive anything like absolute stick aiming.
There is no way that relative stick aiming can compare to mouse for a moving target. If you avoid personal bias and just look at the cold hard numbers (ie "Do the math"), that much is obvious.
For example, with a target moving across your POV from left to right, yes, stick might compare for keeping the reticule on target. However, if the target starts moving the other way (right to left) from your point of view (ie they start moving the other way or you turn your legs) then for a stick in relative mode, you have to return to centre (~5cm movement for an average throw stick), then move full deflection the other way (Another ~5cm) whereas a mouse just has to stop moving (0cm movement), then start moving the other way.

Edited by evilC, 07 February 2013 - 11:20 AM.

[Catamount]

urmamasllama, on 07 February 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

here is the thing though in order for me to do any decent aiming at a target i have had to drop my mouse sensitivity down from 4k to 1.2k this is the first and only game where i felt like high sensitivity made me play worse which by your description makes me think i have a chance of a joystick working out for me. also i don't run snipers well i try to but i can't for some reason i have a really hard time making out targets beyond 800 m either on 3x or 4x let alone pinpointing where i want to hit

Well the fact that mice only work on low sensitivity shows exactly what sticks aren't a fantastic idea here. A stick is fine for continuous, broad movements, but extremely bad for fine accuracy. When I'm in Battlefield 3 flying jets, I'll take a stick any day, because I can apply a constant change of direction that I can't as easily with a mouse (a mouse sucks at being a joystick as much as a stick sucks at being a mouse). I care about agility, not subtle differences in where I'm aiming. When I'm playing MWO, the reverse is true. Fine gunnery skills are one of the most important things in this game, and they're exactly what joysticks are terrible at.

If you want to give it a shot, go ahead, but I don't think you'll find it to be a very effective control scheme, because in effect, what you're really doing is trying to drag a cursor onto a moving target, so using a joystick instead of a mouse in MWO is like trying to use the cursor on your desktop with a joystick (to hit moving icons, no less). Can you physically do it? Sure. Is it desirable? Probably not. The only reason I can see to do it is if you give preference to immersion over combat effectiveness, and if you do, hey that's your choice and I won't criticize you for it.

Edited by Catamount, 07 February 2013 - 11:33 AM.

[KitK]

OP: I have that joystick. I bought it before closed beta just for this game.

I use it for steering and functions like thermal mode. And I think it conflicts with my mouse in a way that thows off my laser aim wildly. The main advantage is I am not longer trying to turn by mashing the target key in team chat anymore! (needless to say, that does not work) So, prepare to be disappointed.

However, this thread has some interesting new information. I'll have to go over it carefully and see what I can do. If it works I'll have to post back here.

Joystick support is a low, low development priority the last time any Dev addressed it.

[Loc Nar]

Quote

i love your configuration basically what i wanted to set mine up as. one question am i correct to assume the one set as weapon group 6 is meant to be fire selected group?

That button will fire Weapon Group 6, but when you hold the shift button it will select/deslect weapons groups as if you were pressing Backspace.

Quote

i had an idea while looking at this. first thing is a plan to have my keyboard nearby for when im first setting up my weapon config so i don't need to waste stick buttons on setup

No buttons were wasted in the production of this script! The 4 way hat fires weapon group 2, 3, 4, and 5, when moving it Left, Up, Right, and Down respectively. However, when you hold the shift button down, then -and only then- the 4 way hat is Left Arrow, Up Arrow, Right Arrow, and Down Arrow in the same respective positions (and the button below selects/deselects groups).

Quote

this will allow me to do the following place alpha strike (more of an oh **** button for me) on the hat up, target enemy on hat down. this allows me four stick buttons to be weapons fire and some extra functions to play with.

See above. The hat is already 4 weapons, AND weapon group navigation. By holding the shift button, your main firing trigger is Alpha already, which in most mechs you should use sparingly. With the layout the way it is, you will likely be able to fire all of your weapons at once without using Alpha Strike anyhow, since you can push 1, 6, and either 2-4 on the hat simultaneously. You are free to change up whatever you want of course, and once you have the script in TARGET it is a trivial matter since the framework is all there and you will be adjusting parameters of existing lines. This is the beauty of TARGET!

That said, this isn't some random cobbled arrangement of buttons I just thought of in a whim at the last second, but rather have over 1500 matches on HOTAS so have had a little bit to think about what is important and what is not and as a mechanical engineering student, I'm pretty attentive to the interaction between man/machine. Aside from typing on chat, there are no functions of the game that are not included here, and in such a manner that there will never be any conflicts of finger priority. All primary functions are on the stick and then left pad at base. Secondary functions are on the right pad at the base.

Quote

also i would love to have a look at that software ill be recieving the stick in the mail tomorrow. now about what you were saying about removing the spring. how difficult of a diy is this and can it be undone if necessary?

The Software is TARGET, and you need to download that from Thrustmaster.

As to the script I have for it, I will make a T16000 post, that way other users with that stick will find it as well. Removing the spring? o_O Nono, you misunderstand. Look again at the link to my stick, (or visit my mechpit thread!) I started with a Thrustmaster Couger, then fabricated my own gimbal out of metal, it's not a modified version of the original it came with. Removing the spring would just leave you a wet-noodle version of the same gimbal type, and so long as it's a traditional (pitch/roll) gimbal, there is not much that can be done to make them easier to use other than adapting to playing that way through lots of playing.

Quote

but i am wondering what is the target overlay button?

It is the q key, and holding it will show you vital information on friendly mechs, which is invaluable at the beginning of a match as well as throughout the battle. Knowing your buddies names, ranges, mech types, health, etc is very useful info in this team based game. Q key. Use it. It also displays same info above enemy mechs, but I mostly use it for determining friendly status...

Quote

Torso rotation in MWO is relative only - only with hacks like locnar's can you acheive anything like absolute stick aiming.

Not quite. The limitation is traditional sticks, not MWO. The problem is spring biased x/y pitch/roll gimbals, which are great for flying aircraft but kinda suck for piloting a mech... For the x-axis (or y axis), were involved, other then fabricating a gimbal. TARGET gives the option to use absolute or relative inputs (my stick can select between these on the fly). Anyone can use absolute inputs, but unless you have a stick that is designed around it, the results will be less than optimal. The only reason it works on my stick is because I fabricated a gimbal that:
1. moves the same direction as the mech (pitch/twist)
2. has no spring return forcing it back to center
3. has friction-slips in the axes to make it stay put when it's not being moved by my hand

If you skip any of those 3 items, absolute inputs are essentially a nightmare. To answer your earlier question, there was no converting of mouse units, disabling of anything, or any monkey business in my .xml or .cfg, However, on my setup one of the 'spare' analog axis serves the purpose of sensitivity adjustment -on the fly, from 0-100%. TARGET makes all of this not only possible, but totally doable. Just too bad it only works with the Warthog, Cougar, or t16000, all of which I have scripts for.

[urmamasllama]

after looking over your setup a few more times i think i finally follow it all and i quite like it. it is a very well thought out configuration. and i think i get what you were talking about on the modification to the joystick you've worked it so the gimbal no longer resets to center but instead holds where it is left

edit i just realized the full implication of making that modification and holy crap that would be amazing you would have perfect control of exactly where you mech is looking if you were to combine it with force feedback it would be even more amazing as it would help your movement lineup with the movement of the mech in a true 1:1 setup

you should mention that to razer im pretty sure they would swoon over this idea

oh and my stick came in today and as im looking over all of this i quickly realize you have to have the target software to have any chance of making this work now i just need to figure out how to do a rudimentary config until you post yours

Edited by urmamasllama, 07 February 2013 - 01:06 PM.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

A mouse is far more accurate than Joysticks of any type.

[Loc Nar]

Quote

any chance of making this work now i just need to figure out how to do a rudimentary config

Yep, and believe it or not using TARGET and my script is the major shortcut. Once you have TARGET installed, it's not hard and should get you going pretty quickly. Follow steps 0-10, and get back to me if you have troubles.


Installation instructions:

0. Download TARGET (select correct version for your operating system) and install program
1. Open TARGET Script Editor (not GUI)
2. click 'Menu' and select 'new' and select TARGET .tmc file and fill in the name blank, then click 'open'
3.delete entire contents of the page that comes up, and copypasta the TARGET script below in it's place
4. Save current script (click folder symbol between fwd/back arrows and joystick at upper left)
5. Run script
6. open your MWO user.cfg folder (C:\Games\Piranha Games\MechWarrior Online\user.cfg) with Notepad and add the following 2 lines:

cl_joystick_throttle_range = 0  //fwd/x/reverse
cl_joystick_invert_throttle = 1  //fwd=fwd

7. close notepad/user.cfg and save edits when prompted
8. Open the MWO client and go to Menu>options and scroll down to bottom of 'configure controls' list. (be the controls are set to default at this stage)
9. click the far right cell for Throttle, and move the thottle on the stick to bind that axis, click yes when asked if you want to remap controls and save/exit.
10. Enjoy!

//**************************************************************************
//	  UNOFFICIAL MECHWARRIOR JOYSTICK SUPPORT
//			For the Thrustmaster T16000
//
//
//				  Written by Loc Nar
//	 (http://mwomercs.com/forums/user/190978-loc-nar/)
//
//  MechWarrior Online Joystick -> Mouse/Keyboard override
//
//**************************************************************************
 
include "target.tmh"
int main()
{
Configure(&HCougar, MODE_EXCLUDED);
Configure(&Joystick, MODE_EXCLUDED);
Configure(&Throttle, MODE_EXCLUDED);
Configure(&LMFD, MODE_EXCLUDED);
Configure(&RMFD, MODE_EXCLUDED);
 
if(Init(&EventHandle)) return 1;
 
SetKBRate(32, 50);
SetKBLayout(KB_ENG);
 
////////////////////////////////////////
//////MOVEMENT
////////////////////////////////////////
 
 
//Turning
SetSCurve(&T16000, RUDDER, 0, 10, 0, 0, 0);
KeyAxis(&T16000, RUDDER, 0, AXMAP2( LIST (0, 45, 55),
'a',
0,
'd'
));
 
//JOY Y
MapAxis(&T16000, JOYY, MOUSE_Y_AXIS, AXIS_REVERSED, MAP_RELATIVE);
SetSCurve(&T16000, JOYY, 0, 5, 0, 7, -9);
 
//JOY X
MapAxis(&T16000, JOYX, MOUSE_X_AXIS, AXIS_NORMAL, MAP_RELATIVE);
SetSCurve(&T16000, JOYX, 0, 0, 0, 7, -8);
 
//Throttle
MapAxis(&T16000, THR, DX_SLIDER_AXIS, AXIS_NORMAL, MAP_ABSOLUTE);
SetSCurve(&T16000, THR, 0, 10, 0, 0, 0);
 
//Jump Jets/Center Torso
MapKey(&T16000, B9, SPC);
 
////////////////////////////////////////
//////STICK MAPPING
//////////////////////////////////////////Firing Weapons
MapKey(&T16000, TS1, '1'); //Fire Weapon 1
	MapKey(&T16000, H1L, '2'); //Fire Weapon 2
MapKey(&T16000, H1U, '3'); //Fire Weapon 3
MapKey(&T16000, H1R, '4'); //Fire Weapon 4
MapKey(&T16000, H1D, '5'); //Fire Weapon 5
MapKey(&T16000, TS2, '6'); //Fire Weapon 6
//MapKey(&T16000, TS1, '\'); //Alpha
 
 
//Targeting/Toggle ECM
MapKey(&T16000, TS4, PULSE+'r');
//Display Team Info/Toggle Chainfire
MapKey(&T16000, TS3, 'q');////////////////////////////////////////
//////BASE MAPPING, Primary Functions
////////////////////////////////////////
  
	//Freelook
	MapKey(&T16000, B9, L_CTL);
  
	//Heat Vision
	MapKey(&T16000, B10, PULSE+'h');
	
	//Night Vision
	MapKey(&T16000, B5, PULSE+'n');
  
	//Zoom/Advanced Zoom
	MapKey(&T16000, B6, PULSE+'z');
  
	//Jump Jets/Center Torso
	MapKey(&T16000, B7, SPC);
  
//////////////////////////////////
//////Shift Layer Functions
//////////////////////////////////
  
	SetShiftButton(&T16000, B8, 0, 0, 0, 0);
  
	//Firing Weapons
MapKeyIO(&T16000, TS1, USB[0x31], '1');	   //Alpha Strike
  
	//Weapons List Navigation  
MapKeyIO(&T16000, H1L, PULSE+LARROW, '2');	//left arrow
MapKeyIO(&T16000, H1U, PULSE+UARROW, '3');	//up arrow
MapKeyIO(&T16000, H1R, PULSE+RARROW, '4');	//right arrow
MapKeyIO(&T16000, H1D, PULSE+DARROW, '5');	//down arrow
MapKeyIO(&T16000, TS2, PULSE+R_CTL, '6');	 //select/deselect weapons
//Toggle ECM
MapKeyIO(&T16000, TS4, PULSE+'j', PULSE+'r');		   //toggle ECM
MapKeyIO(&T16000, TS3, PULSE+BSP, 'q');	//toggle chainfire
//Advanced Zoom
MapKeyIO(&T16000, B6, PULSE+'v', PULSE+'z');	//advanced zoom//Center Torso
MapKeyIO(&T16000, B7, PULSE+'c', SPC);	//center torso
//Toggle Chainfire
MapKeyIO(&T16000, TS3, PULSE+BSP, 'q');	//toggle chainfire
 
  
/////////////////////////////////////////////////
//////BASE MAPPING. Secondary functions
/////////////////////////////////////////////////
  
	//Power
	MapKey(&T16000, B14, 'p');
  
	//Battlegrid
	MapKey(&T16000, B15, PULSE+'b');
  
	//Toggle Missile Doors
	MapKey(&T16000, B16, PULSE+'/');
  
	//Heat Shutdown Override
	MapKey(&T16000, B13, 'o');
  
	//Scoreboard
	MapKey(&T16000, B12, TAB);
  
	//Cockpit Light
	MapKey(&T16000, B11, PULSE+'.');
  
printf("ALL SYSTEMS NOMINAL!");   }
int EventHandle(int type, alias o, int x)
{
DefaultMapping(&o, x);
}

Quote

Joysticks of any type.

Only 99.999% correct.