298 replies to this topic

[anonymous175]

[Orgasmo]

I think machinegun should have 180 optimal range, while doing 0.06 damage per bullet. Basically double the current range and increase the current damage by 33%. Otherwise it would be utterly useless.

[Craftyman]

Orgasmo, on 10 February 2013 - 11:54 PM, said:

I think machinegun should have 180 optimal range, while doing 0.06 damage per bullet. Basically double the current range and increase the current damage by 33%. Otherwise it would be utterly useless.

its gonna need more than a 33% boost:



BTW that is about as fast as you can kill ANY mech with 4 machine guns. One minute and 23 seconds of perfectly aimed head fire with a projectile slower than an AC/20.

Edited by Craftyman, 11 February 2013 - 03:18 AM.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Sifright, on 10 February 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

so many people really have absolutely no idea how the game mechanics work.

How exactly do you think stripping equipment from an already about to be destroyed section is useful, given that the light mech featuring MGS can do nothing until the armour is stripped.

Umm... well they do have that energy hardpoint. Plus I'm pretty sure its not going to be one Spider or one Cicada (hey both insects!) going it alone. Both could scout around, getting the occasional laser/PPC shot in, then move in to finish off a wounded mech their TEAM has stripped of armor. Or they could mount a UAC/5 (like one Cicada variant already does) or go Urbanmech and mount an AC/10. I think that would strip armor for the MG's. So which mechanic do I not understand?

[Tincan Nightmare]

Wolfways, on 10 February 2013 - 03:06 PM, said:

Why use any weapon? If it's in the game it should be useful, and many mechs come with MG's as standard.

Yes but the main word is 'useful.' Your definition is that an MG isn't useful if it isn't chewing armor of a mech at least as well as a Sm. laser with increased range. The devs are trying to make it useful by allowing it to be more effective at inflicting critical damage. Also there are plenty of weapons in the game that don't get used very regularly, just go ask the NARC beacon or the flamer. Hell with ECM in its current state, lots of players have dropped LRM's.

SpiralRazor, on 10 February 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

270 range, .16 on damage application...adjust application rate as needed.


It should be a viable weapon..


but then again, so should the small pulse laser/flamer.

Yah but now its a viable weapon that has the same range as an AC/20. Should a 20mm MG have the reach of a cannon in the 120mm or more range. The lightweight weapons have always been exactly what they are, just a little bit more damage (usually at very short range) when a mech has some tonnage available (that didn't go to heat sinks, engine, armor, etc.) They were never intended to be high damage items. Its one of the reasons they later gave flamers the ability to add to a targets heat level and MG's the ability to nearly wipeout an infantry platoon in one burst, a function that made them useful to carry. Its part of the whole balancing of BT weapons (that admittedly don't follow real world physics) that you got damage, heat, range, and weight/crit space (plus ammo for missiles/ballistics.) Get a weapon that does high damage, like and AC/20, and it pays for it by being very heavy, less shots per ton, fairly high heat (at least for a ballistic,) and short range. Or the MG that weighs nearly nothing, 200 shots per ton, generates no heat, but has a laughable range and a 10 second burst (the time of a TT turn) amounts to 2 points of damage. I'm not saying MG's couldn't use a slight damage increase, but there are far more important weapons and mechanics that need work now that I hope the dev's concentrate on instead of boosting a weapon that is only important for 2 chassis.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Craftyman, on 11 February 2013 - 03:15 AM, said:

its gonna need more than a 33% boost:



BTW that is about as fast as you can kill ANY mech with 4 machine guns. One minute and 23 seconds of perfectly aimed head fire with a projectile slower than an AC/20.

Except that the CT of the targeted mech was lighting up more than the head was in the paperdoll (of an Awesome no less.) And how fast should 4 MG's kill mechs by head shot, 30 seconds, 45? Would make MG's more useful than AC/2's or AC/5's at less tonnage.

[Sifright]

Tincan Nightmare, on 11 February 2013 - 03:34 AM, said:

Yes but the main word is 'useful.' Your definition is that an MG isn't useful if it isn't chewing armor of a mech at least as well as a Sm. laser with increased range. The devs are trying to make it useful by allowing it to be more effective at inflicting critical damage. Also there are plenty of weapons in the game that don't get used very regularly, just go ask the NARC beacon or the flamer. Hell with ECM in its current state, lots of players have dropped LRM's.



Yah but now its a viable weapon that has the same range as an AC/20. Should a 20mm MG have the reach of a cannon in the 120mm or more range. The lightweight weapons have always been exactly what they are, just a little bit more damage (usually at very short range) when a mech has some tonnage available (that didn't go to heat sinks, engine, armor, etc.) They were never intended to be high damage items. Its one of the reasons they later gave flamers the ability to add to a targets heat level and MG's the ability to nearly wipeout an infantry platoon in one burst, a function that made them useful to carry. Its part of the whole balancing of BT weapons (that admittedly don't follow real world physics) that you got damage, heat, range, and weight/crit space (plus ammo for missiles/ballistics.) Get a weapon that does high damage, like and AC/20, and it pays for it by being very heavy, less shots per ton, fairly high heat (at least for a ballistic,) and short range. Or the MG that weighs nearly nothing, 200 shots per ton, generates no heat, but has a laughable range and a 10 second burst (the time of a TT turn) amounts to 2 points of damage. I'm not saying MG's couldn't use a slight damage increase, but there are far more important weapons and mechanics that need work now that I hope the dev's concentrate on instead of boosting a weapon that is only important for 2 chassis.

Given the simplicty of the fix for the MG it's remarkable it's taken them this long.

It sure it hard to change one txt file to go from reading .04 to .12 to make the machine gun not a giant piece of crap.

The problem with your oh el em gee fix making it a crit seeker is that crit seeking is useless in MWO. It doesn't matter how much damage you do to critical slots with the MG.

A light mech with 4 Mgs is never going to get an enemy mech to that stage. the 4 MG spider according to the way pgi balances match drops should be able to be compete with a laser mando. That doesn't happen AT ALL.

Think of it this way, if the MG doesn't do any extra dmg to armour then the spider is never going to break through the laser mandos armour to do any damage to its critical slots.

Whilst the Commando is still going to punch through the armour and wrecking internal structure and critical components on top.

because basic damage is far more important in mech combat than just being able to damage to critical slots.

bare in mind when they say it will have increase crit damage they don't mean there is a random chance for structure hp to be damaged more. Just that you will damage equipment in the armour stripped section more easily

Tincan Nightmare, on 11 February 2013 - 03:40 AM, said:

Except that the CT of the targeted mech was lighting up more than the head was in the paperdoll (of an Awesome no less.) And how fast should 4 MG's kill mechs by head shot, 30 seconds, 45? Would make MG's more useful than AC/2's or AC/5's at less tonnage.

logic called it asked you to look at the DPS of the AC/2 and its range.

DPS 4 per AC/2

Range 720m X3 range drop off for ballistics so the longest range weapon in the game.
AC/2 is very accurate and great for cockpitting enemies.

Craftyman, on 11 February 2013 - 03:15 AM, said:

its gonna need more than a 33% boost:



BTW that is about as fast as you can kill ANY mech with 4 machine guns. One minute and 23 seconds of perfectly aimed head fire with a projectile slower than an AC/20.

OMG SO OVER POWERED!!!!!

LE GASP.

NEEDS NERF !!!

[MustrumRidcully]

Tincan Nightmare, on 11 February 2013 - 03:40 AM, said:

Except that the CT of the targeted mech was lighting up more than the head was in the paperdoll (of an Awesome no less.) And how fast should 4 MG's kill mechs by head shot, 30 seconds, 45? Would make MG's more useful than AC/2's or AC/5's at less tonnage.

So the MG is also imprecise and doesn't even hit where you aim? It's quite obvious that the attacker did hit the head, after all - more than aiming at it he can't do, if the bullets still fly all over the place, what is he to do?

Assuming the internal armour of the head is 18, and the armour in the head is 18, that's 36 damage the AC/2 needs to inflict. That's 13 shots with it, something it can fire in 6 seconds. 4 MGs weight 2 tons, one AC/2 6. So you would expect a three times as good performance compared to the MG. 6 x 3 = 18 seconds. So by that alone, the MGs would be fine if they could do it in 18. Obviously, this ignores ammo and heat concerns and the range difference. I'd say 30 or 45 seconds sounds about fair.

[Joseph Mallan]

Craftyman, on 11 February 2013 - 03:15 AM, said:

its gonna need more than a 33% boost:



BTW that is about as fast as you can kill ANY mech with 4 machine guns. One minute and 23 seconds of perfectly aimed head fire with a projectile slower than an AC/20.

This seems about right to me. It is a 0.5 ton ballistic weapon. A machine gun bullet in the MMO weighs in at 1 pound a piece(seems a bit heavy to me, but that is the game's physics.). Compared to an AC2 round that weighs 26.6 pounds per shell. So at 10 rounds a second that is still less than half the mass of a single AC2 round. And an AC2 fires 2x per second so that is 53 pounds of munitions per second (if I 'm right) v a Machine Gun's 10 pounds.

[Tarman]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 February 2013 - 04:56 AM, said:

This seems about right to me. It is a 0.5 ton ballistic weapon. A machine gun bullet in the MMO weighs in at 1 pound a piece(seems a bit heavy to me, but that is the game's physics.). Compared to an AC2 round that weighs 26.6 pounds per shell. So at 10 rounds a second that is still less than half the mass of a single AC2 round. And an AC2 fires 2x per second so that is 53 pounds of munitions per second (if I 'm right) v a Machine Gun's 10 pounds.

What a bunch of math to justify not having a decent machine gun. I fail to see your conceptual disagreement for this weapon system. Just because you have a perpetual hate-on stemming from past experience does zero to help improve THIS game. History is dead. Long live the MG.

[Cybermech]

machine guns are getting looked at, critical hits and all that.
just going to have to wait, besides its only .5 tonnes so it shouldn't be that good at all

[Joseph Mallan]

Tarman, on 11 February 2013 - 05:18 AM, said:

What a bunch of math to justify not having a decent machine gun. I fail to see your conceptual disagreement for this weapon system. Just because you have a perpetual hate-on stemming from past experience does zero to help improve THIS game. History is dead. Long live the MG.

28 years playing this universe both TT and video games zero use of Machine Guns. I understand a small buff to damage for the MG... But anything substantial seems wrong. That you don't agree does not change that. K Thx Bye

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 11 February 2013 - 05:37 AM.

[ConnorSinclair]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 February 2013 - 05:37 AM, said:

28 years playing this universe both TT and video games zero use of Machine Guns. I understand a small buff to damage for the MG... But anything substantial seems wrong. That you don't agree does not change that. K Thx Bye

That wasn't a reply that was a tantrum.

In TT if I light up a section with an MG there are usually 4 of them or more and they start suffering serious criticals.

[Quxudica]

Redshift2k5, on 05 February 2013 - 06:56 PM, said:

The current plan to make them 'viable' includes giving them the ability to deal significant item crits (destroying items within a section) once armor has been removed from that section.

Mechs don't live long enough after losing armor for this to be worthwhile is the problem. Sure it might give MGs a use, but it would still always be better to build just to outright kill the mech and not bother with internals. The only real way to make crit fishing a worthwhile endeavor would be to drastically reduce damage across the board so that fights take much much longer.

[Joseph Mallan]

ConnorSinclair, on 11 February 2013 - 05:41 AM, said:

That wasn't a reply that was a tantrum.

In TT if I light up a section with an MG there are usually 4 of them or more and they start suffering serious critical.

A tantrum depends on what voice you read it with. One that is just calmly stating my point will change the tone you are perceiving.

in TT you also fire 1 of 2000 rounds with a machine gun per turn. I am looking at the machine gun as it is in the MMO not TT. The Machine gun in the MMO is only slightly under powered for its size and ammo per ton. Personally i am surprised the rounds are one pound a piece! But 2 26+ pound AC Shells should do significantly more damage than 10 1 pound bullets.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 11 February 2013 - 05:54 AM.

[Sifright]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 February 2013 - 05:37 AM, said:

28 years playing this universe both TT and video games zero use of Machine Guns. I understand a small buff to damage for the MG... But anything substantial seems wrong. That you don't agree does not change that. K Thx Bye

Mech warrior 2 boated machine guns tore through enemy mechs crazy fast.

Joseph Mallan, on 11 February 2013 - 05:53 AM, said:

A tantrum depends on what voice you read it with. One that is just calmly stating my point will change the tone you are perceiving.

in TT you also fire 1 of 2000 rounds with a machine gun per turn. I am looking at the machine gun as it is in the MMO not TT. The Machine gun in the MMO is only slightly under powered for its size and ammo per ton. Personally i am surprised the rounds are one pound a piece! But 2 26+ pound AC Shells should do significantly more damage than 10 1 pound bullets.

you are delusional.


I think i understand the problem. It's your head cannons.



It's broken

Edited by Sifright, 11 February 2013 - 06:01 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sifright, on 11 February 2013 - 06:00 AM, said:

Mech warrior 2 boated machine guns tore through enemy mechs crazy fast.



you are delusional.

As gets quoted often for other games.
This isn't MW2. I obliterated Mechs at 1000m In MW2 with 2 Gauss and 3 ERPPC with 1 ALPHA.

I'm not delusional, I'm practical. 0.5 ton ballistic weapon should not be on par with other Ballistic weapons that weigh multiple tons a piece.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 11 February 2013 - 06:07 AM.

[Sifright]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 February 2013 - 06:05 AM, said:

As gets quoted often for other games.
This isn't MW2. I obliterated Mechs at 1000m In MW2 with 2 Gauss and 3 ERPPC with 1 ALPHA.

I'm not delusional, I'm practical. 0.5 ton ballistic weapon should not be on par with other Ballistic weapons that weigh multiple tons a piece.

And they wont be even if you triple their damage so what is your point?

So you can take your smug crap out of this thread.


AC/2 4 DPS highest range ballistic weapon worst heat per damage.

for a machine gun to hit the same dps would require 10 machine guns at 5 tonnes. This at 1/8th the range.

You really do have no idea how balancing is supposed to work do you?

Edited by Sifright, 11 February 2013 - 06:17 AM.

[Craftyman]

Tincan Nightmare, on 11 February 2013 - 03:40 AM, said:

Except that the CT of the targeted mech was lighting up more than the head was in the paperdoll (of an Awesome no less.) And how fast should 4 MG's kill mechs by head shot, 30 seconds, 45? Would make MG's more useful than AC/2's or AC/5's at less tonnage.

Are you dense sir? 4 small lasers would kill in less than half the time, don't require at least a ton of ammo and are HITSCAN, as in what you click on is what you hit all you have to do is track the target. A small laser does 1 dps (250% of an MG's DPS) which means 4 will strip the head in 4.5 seconds. Actually it will be 3 seconds because you fire a volley at 0 seconds for 12 damage and then again at 3 seconds for 24 stripping off the head's 18 armor and doing an additional 6.

By 3 seconds the 4 machine guns will have done 6.4 damage.

Good argument sir, you have lost.

Oh wait, you want to argue heat? irrelevant, because by the time you have head shot the Awesome at 36 damage (30+ damage is reliable headshot range) you have generated less than the DEFAULT HEAT THRESHOLD, NOT EVEN TAKING INTO ACCOUNT HEAT DISSIPATED OVER THE COOLDOWN PERIOD. What does this mean? It means a mech with 10 SINGLE heatsinks will not even overheat before headshotting an awesome, negating the MG's heat "advantage".

My personal and opinionated answer to your question is about 6 seconds to headshot giving the heavier (you at least 1 ton of ammo) machine gun an advantage on the laser by doing more dps, but the laser keeping it's advantage of front loading damage.

Quote

This seems about right to me. It is a 0.5 ton ballistic weapon. A machine gun bullet in the MMO weighs in at 1 pound a piece(seems a bit heavy to me, but that is the game's physics.). Compared to an AC2 round that weighs 26.6 pounds per shell. So at 10 rounds a second that is still less than half the mass of a single AC2 round. And an AC2 fires 2x per second so that is 53 pounds of munitions per second (if I 'm right) v a Machine Gun's 10 pounds.

It's really hard to take you seriously when you think this game is real life, joey. And thus it's hard to take your argument seriously.

Edited by Craftyman, 11 February 2013 - 06:23 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sifright, on 11 February 2013 - 06:14 AM, said:

And they wont be even if you triple their damage so what is your point?

So you can take your smug crap out of this thread.


AC/2 4 DPS highest range ballistic weapon worst heat per damage.

for a machine gun to hit the same dps would require 10 machine guns at 5 tonnes. This at 1/8th the range.

You really do have no idea how balancing is supposed to work do you?

yes I do. You just don't like my suggestions & I don't like yours. Now unless I am using the wrong voice to read your posts... Why do you seem so hostile because i don't agree with you, and was able to play every rendering of this game with out ever equipping a Machine Gun. Even on Fire Moths

@ Crafty... I used in game statistics to support my position. How did you get real life out of that? In the game a machine gun bullet is much smaller than a AC2 round. 10 of them should at best should deal almost one half the damage as an AC2 round(0.8 per 10 rounds).