20 replies to this topic

[Honsau]

In the table top game jump jets were a huge movement advantage. You could clear rough treain and manuver on enemies. The down side was high heat build up and a to hit penalty. None of the Mechwarrior games have had a usefull jump jet system. The only use for them has been for pop up fire (pop tart). They also made you a big floating target. I would love to see jump jets have more utility in the game. The technical readouts and books talk about jump capable Mechs bouncing from treain feature to terain feature but building up a ton up heat. I have always thought that jump jets should have more of the feel of a old school quake rocket jump. (see link if you aren't old school enough ) Bouncing like that would make it hard to hit anything and adding a recharge time and a high heat penalty would balance them.

[Raine]

Upgradeable jump jets preferably. Stabilizers, extra fuel storage for longer jumps, ventilation for better cooldown, etc.. etc..

[TrentTheWanderer]

I have a lot of opinions about this. I'm MW4 I was a HUGE fan of the Uziel for a number of reasons, but a big one was the Jump Jets. They allow for smaller mechs to have the capability to perform atypical combat maneuvers with much greater success. The ability to faux crest a hill, spot on my targets, and then gain flanking has let me destroy MUCH more powerful opponents more than once, and there's nothing like an urban battle in and out of buildings when you are jump jet equipped. That heavy or assault can be waiting around the next intersection with an alpha strike with you name on it, only to get a barrage from the top of the building they are waiting under.

By the time they realized what happened to them, you're already gone!

I have some serious qualms with the way they were implemented in MW4, however. Jump jets fling you on a fairly fixed trajectory, spilling smoke and light behind you, as if to call out "Hit me! Hit me!" to absolutely ANYONE within a kilometer of you. You feel like a flushed quail every time. In PVE this isn't that big of a deal, but human players will see your light mech coasting through the air on jump jets, and good odds say that by the time you land you are already dead and your reactor has already detonated.

Heinlein had a neat logical workaround for this very serious weakness: prejump calculation. Essentially the jump jets fire with a set trajectory and endpoint ONCE to launch you, and then go mute until just before you land, where they fire a halting burst to stabilize you. If you need to adjust course in-flight you refire the jets as desired. This gives those of us who want to operate less overtly the option of not trailing smoke and flame throughout our entire flightpath, or those who are going for distance and speed to continuously burn until they are prepared to land.

Whether or not these practical considerations are canon, I am not sure. I have always been a PC mech gamer, but the ability to use jump jets TACTICALLY as opposed to using them to clearly show everyone my position would be a HUGE incentive to accept the heat and weight considerations.

What does everyone else think of this?

[chungus maximus]

Trent is on to something. I totally abandoned jump jets in MW4 for that exact reason. You pretty much yelled, "PULL!" every time you fired them off. Most of the time I just dropped the jets and added a few heat sinks or a couple tons of ammo. It would be pretty awesome to bounce from point to point and actually use your jets tactically. Not to draw a correlation to a sub-par game... but something that operates like the Predator jumping mechanic in the new AVP game?

[Aegis Kleais]

I'm in hopes that jumpjets will provide a decent push of forward momentum in tandem with vertical thrust, but I don't feel the Mech should be moved akin to rocket jumping from a FPS game. These are massive multi-ton war machines. Single directional thrusts with varying levels of acceleration seem a lot more realistic than instant gratification and physics-shattering propulsion.

For me, jets off your verticality and temporary boost in movement. They should take enough of a moment before they can be used again to the point where they couldn't feasibly be used as the primary method of movement.

[chungus maximus]

To be honest, I probably won't use the jump jets anyway out of habit. I've grown akin to just shedding the tonnage and tweaking my 'mech.

[TrentTheWanderer]

Aegis Kleais™, on 28 April 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

they couldn't feasibly be used as the primary method of movement.

Definitely this. Jump jets should have a number of KEY limitations. I'm thinking something like the following:

- Heat buildup
- Limited fuel on hand (JATO units are comparable in thrust and use solid-state fuel)
- "Jump calculator" style configuration (You turn on your jump CPU, an arc is presented, you modify it with controls to be what you want, then you fire the jets)
- Limited refire rate (Like a modular JATO system that feeds rocket-fuel cartridges)
- Fuel performance limited by mech weight (in exact fractions of tons)

There would be a neat niche for unarmed mechs to load up on "jump cartridges" and fling themselves around the battlefield collecting intel, having well-armed middleweights with perpetual jump would be unbalanced and frustrating. I think a good mix of some of the above factors could make it a useful option without breaking gameplay.

Edited by TrentTheWanderer, 28 April 2012 - 11:51 AM.

[Kenyon Burguess]

jumpjets should be noisy and flashy. your launching tons of mech into the air. i just dont want to see flying around and ground skating away from missles

[Gremlich Johns]

come over to MWLL and try the JJs out. Not every mech gets them. (nor should they)

[TrentTheWanderer]

Geist Null, on 28 April 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

jumpjets should be noisy and flashy. your launching tons of mech into the air. i just dont want to see flying around and ground skating away from missles

Noisy and flashy, of course! There is no need for them to fire your entire jump, however. An initial blast (with all the flame and exhaust) would be able to launch the tonnage without continuous follow-on firing unless you are correcting course or didn't calculate your jump before jumping. No one is saying they should be silent and camouflaged (though it stands to reason mech designers would want to dissipate emissions and such as efficiently as possible), just the large initial blast, flash, and smoke don't need to (nor should they) follow you into the air for no particular reason!

Anyhow, it's just my $0.02, i'm not making demands, i'm making suggestions.

[Ravn]

Particle effects should be dependent upon terrain. I'd like to see them kick up a lot of dust in a desert.

[TrentTheWanderer]

Ravn, on 28 April 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

Particle effects should be dependent upon terrain. I'd like to see them kick up a lot of dust in a desert.

That would be awesome! It could also have a significant effect on the tactical environment, allowing players to "wild weasel" for their squad by using their jumps to also kick up concealment in the form of clouds of dust. I would be really excited to see contextual effects like that come into play.

[Sigmund Sandoval]

You have to keep in mind what jump jets are for. They are not really assault equipment. Jump Jets are primarily there for a couple of reasons.

1) Defensive measure - You will not that many of the good scout 'mechs have jump jets. The reason for this is that it allows them to put themselves in cover or out of line of sight of heavier 'mechs. Being able to maneuver into places where heavier 'mechs with no jump jets have trouble maneuvering or cannot traverse at all is usually the stuff of great feints and distraction maneuvers.

2) Spotting - Once again at the core of the light 'mechs chore is spotting enemy movements. Being able to find less accessible high ground or simply pop up and take a gander at the enemy position give the scout 'mech with jump jets a considerable advantage. Noteworthy is the fact that using these jump jets near an enemy position will cause you to be spotted, but if there is enough range and cover terrain between you and the enemy, it is sometimes advantageous to gather some intel and use your superior speed to get the hell out.

3) Exploiting rear armor - Usually lighter 'mechs don't have the punch of a lot of heavy weapons. The only chance they have is to exploit weaknesses and use their superior maneuverability. I have, in the past used jump jets to great effect in getting good fire arcs on rear armor. That is, if I am able to change my facing mid flight, which I hope I can do here.

In the final analysis, jump jets are flashy, they do have a predictable arch and can make you vulnerable if used liberally within the line of fire of several enemies. But, if used judiciously, they can increase the effectiveness of scout units and protect them from a lot of straight up brawls that they need to avoid to survive.

[Ravn]

TrentTheWanderer, on 28 April 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:

That would be awesome! It could also have a significant effect on the tactical environment, allowing players to "wild weasel" for their squad by using their jumps to also kick up concealment in the form of clouds of dust. I would be really excited to see contextual effects like that come into play.

Ya, but we have covered that line of thinking here. I just thought i'd give that dead horse another kick.

Edited by Ravn, 28 April 2012 - 01:47 PM.

[TrentTheWanderer]

Ravn, on 28 April 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

Ya, but we have covered that line of thinking here. I just thought i'd give that dead horse another kick.

Yeah, that's a pretty thorough discussion of the issues over there. I like the information warfare aspects of what the devs have been saying and I think requiring communication between sensor units, commanders, and maneuver elements is going to be aided by adding things like dust clouds into the game.

Sigmund Sandoval, on 28 April 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

In the final analysis, jump jets are flashy, they do have a predictable arch and can make you vulnerable if used liberally within the line of fire of several enemies. But, if used judiciously, they can increase the effectiveness of scout units and protect them from a lot of straight up brawls that they need to avoid to survive.

The real issue with "flashy" and "predictable arc" is that the mechs utilizing them are usually light and medium mechs who can't afford either of those things, and they aren't necessary to the extent represented in MW4. Why have your mech use an extended burn and slowly lift itself to apex and then REDUCE THRUST and continue to burn on your descent when you can just launch yourself into the air, free fall, and burn again right before touchdown to land "gently"?

[PhelanKerensky]

I'm for a back to basics look at how Jump Jets worked in the Battletech Tabletop game. In that, it was possible to jump in any direction regardless of your current facing, and land pointing in any direction. As such, it allowed a mech that may be quite slow to have some much needed agility in order to stay in the fight that bit longer. I do think however that if I jump forward and land facing the same direction, that you should keep at least 50% of your forward momentum. The lack of this is what makes Jump Jets a waste of time in Living Legends, except for pop tarting of course. In living legend all of your momentum is lost when you land a Jump, and it just kills the tactical use of such, as you Must keep moving.

I don't think that you should be able to change direction once in the air, but I do think that you should be able to jump jet in any direction from your take off spot. In reality all you would be doing in the mech is leaning in the direction you want to jump jet, and your centre of gravity and the thrust from your jets would do the rest.

[TrentTheWanderer]

PhelanKerensky, on 28 April 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

it was possible to jump in any direction regardless of your current facing, and land pointing in any direction.

In living legend all of your momentum is lost when you land a Jump, and it just kills the tactical use of such, as you Must keep moving.

I don't think that you should be able to change direction once in the air, but I do think that you should be able to jump jet in any direction from your take off spot.

I really want to see Jump Jets behaving like actual ballistic delivery systems, much like you are explaining here. Your trajectory should be set before your jump, and once you are in the air you would have to override your landing and "refire" your jets to change course, and you will also have an automatic "refire" on landing to nullify at least the falling portion of your momentum. I think this can be balanced by limiting the number of fires, heat generated, ect, and still allow jump jets to be an asset to mechwarriors, as opposed to fluff that will do more to get you killed than to keep you alive.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

As mentioned elsewhere you should note that you can't fit JJs to any mech. Only variants that come with them can use them, or not.

[Sigmund Sandoval]

If you use your jump jets to advance on the enemy, make sure you can take them and even then you should think twice since you are probably going to give them shots on you before you get any real shots off.

If you have to use your jump jets to get out of Dodge, your position is either already compromised or you are moving out of a hidden position and careful timing is key to getting into a better position for escape.

Jump Jets are a tool and like any other tool their effectiveness is completely determined by its user and will only improve the survivability of machines piloted by those who know when, where and how to use them.

If this game wants to be true to the feel of the board game, it will allow the player to jump in any direction and land in any facing up to its maximum jump movement. Particle and sound effects aside, I am pretty sure its not going to be a clean and silent event. After all, you can’t expect to strap a rocket to a 20-100 ton machine and have it be a stealthy maneuver, no matter how you “burn” the jets.

Edited by Sigmund Sandoval, 28 April 2012 - 09:16 PM.

[TrentTheWanderer]

Sigmund Sandoval, on 28 April 2012 - 09:15 PM, said:

\ After all, you can’t expect to strap a rocket to a 20-100 ton machine and have it be a stealthy maneuver\

This is true! No one thinks launching 40+ tons of mech is going to be "quiet", you just don't have to be trailing flame and smoke the whole way.

The initial blast and cloud can (and should be) functional without a clear and easily visible "trail" on the activating mech.

Why trail smoke and fire when it is unnecessary?