440 replies to this topic

[GalaxyBluestar]

a month back it was Ravens, those 3l's, scumbag cravens.

now before that there was streak cat worries and again it's rising bile in forums about how a catapult has such potency on the field especially when it boats/stacks the same weaopns.

although many other mechs do this, stalker being a main cuprit and i'm guilty myself of a 5lrg laser build {ppc boating is ridiculous but i haven't been ripped by them so much as to rage against them just call them lolololol's}

it's getting so bad that people are begining to field such builds as whack pults, gausspults and especially splatterpults in the same fashion as people wanted to tell pgi ravens were op and fielded premades of them. the c1's and 4s are FINE! I do feel a1's can stack the alpha too high but how to nerf that other than a suggestion i made on another thread about puting slot restrictions on hardpoint restrictions {also upping the weapon/hardpoint amounts for some mechs along wih the slot restrictions} is very tricky to make a nerf feel like a balance rather than just nerfing the chassis into the ground.

so lets get something straight with the community are they really game breakingly overpowered or are they just outdoing other less skilled players or something else in the works.

we've had a bunch of these threads so sorry if you're sick of them {i feel it's getting old too} however let's just see some more numbers and opinions to clear things up.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 06 February 2013 - 08:16 PM.

[Tempered]

I think that the catapult A1 was given too many missile hard points. That is all.

[Vassago Rain]

Here's how this would be fixed, once and for all.

Catapults need their extremely large torso twist reduced. They can currently shoot behind them.
Jumpjets need to not let you turn 180 in the air.
Big guns on the K2 should be properly displayed on the model, like the game does for the arm energy slots.

Tinkering with the hardpoints doesn't do anything, except make the mech useless. Forcing a 'no twist' on them as a quirk also makes them useless.

Edited by Vassago Rain, 06 February 2013 - 08:17 PM.

[Solis Obscuri]

These have been around for a looooong time.
They're a little off from a balance perspective, but... I don't want to go too nuts with nerfing the variant overall.

[Critical Fumble]

Catapults are doing exactly what they're intended to: boating.

The problem is that boating is wildly effective, the hardpoint restrictions help keep most mechs in the theme of what they were originally, but does nothing to boating except limit which mechs can boat.

The problem lies in the overall mechanics, not the chassis itself.

[GalaxyBluestar]

if you can please state your "solution" to the "problem" or state that you're not sure what could be done.

[HurlockHolmes]

Torso twist reduction on A1, if not all models of Catapult.

K2 needs to have the side torsos changed akin to that one image, somebody even shooped the original concept art to reflect the change and it actually looked really nice.

Other than that, they do have their downsides I guess, just not as obvious as other 'mechs.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Critical Fumble, on 06 February 2013 - 08:17 PM, said:

Catapults are doing exactly what they're intended to: boating.

The problem is that boating is wildly effective, the hardpoint restrictions help keep most mechs in the theme of what they were originally, but does nothing to boating except limit which mechs can boat.

The problem lies in the overall mechanics, not the chassis itself.

very true and while cover and CQ dominates most maps the short range boats have been far more effective thus giving an impression that such mechs are op...

HurlockHolmes, on 06 February 2013 - 08:20 PM, said:

Torso twist reduction on A1, if not all models of Catapult.

K2 needs to have the side torsos changed akin to that one image, somebody even shooped the original concept art to reflect the change and it actually looked really nice.

Other than that, they do have their downsides I guess, just not as obvious as other 'mechs.

the cannon respect in me says NO!

i don't want 6 awesome barrels on a stalker to justify 6 ppcs same thing goes for the k2 DO NOT change the artwork!

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 06 February 2013 - 08:23 PM.

[Broceratops]

low elo players dont know to start shooting these things when they're far away + have crappy loadouts that can't do any damage when they get up close, so they have no chance against the mighty catbros

these things are not that effective in 8v8s. they're okay, but its not like teams with 4 ac/20 cats are winning anything. any significant nerf and nobody will use them competitively.


torso twist won't fix anything because most people complaining are not being out maneuvered by k2s and a1s. they're just letting them walk up and then taking it all in the face point blank.

edit:
I HAVE USED THE FIRST LOW ELO CATEGORIZATION IN MWO! SCREENSHOT THIS THREAD FOR THE ARCHIVES

Edited by Broceratops, 06 February 2013 - 08:26 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

Critical Fumble, on 06 February 2013 - 08:17 PM, said:

Catapults are doing exactly what they're intended to: boating.

The problem is that boating is wildly effective, the hardpoint restrictions help keep most mechs in the theme of what they were originally, but does nothing to boating except limit which mechs can boat.

The problem lies in the overall mechanics, not the chassis itself.

They've got something like 270 degrees of twist. That doesn't seem fair to me, and many of us told them this would cause problems.

Indeed, it was causing problems months and months ago, back when I first made this account. Before I even bought founders. Catapults have needed an overhaul for as long as the game's existed, but they still haven't gotten one.

I don't think they'll ever get to it, which is why operation: steak sauce was initiated. If no one's gonna do anything, then we're simply gonna play with the mech to its full potential.

[That Guy]

rather than treating the symptoms, we need to treat the causes.

the biggest problem now is with SRM stacking. what that means is all launchers fire from the same missile tubes at the same time. so 6 tubes are launching 18 missiles in a very tight and compact formation. this gives grouped SRMs a huge advantage because the surface area is so small concentrating damage. each launcher needs to launch from different tubes. and if not enough tubes are available, fire sequentially, like it currently is handled for large launchers. right now the atlas DC can fire 18 missiles (SRM) out of 6 tubes. the cent9-A can fire 18 missiles out of 10. the A1 can fire 18 missiles out of 15 (in the space of 6).

the same applies for staked autocannons. if the model only has one weapon port, the shots need to be fired sequentially (automatic but rapid chain fire, kinda how the UAC instant doubletap works now)


also the way double heat sinks work now kinda breaks the game. that free 20 totally breaks the game. makes PPC boats a problem. makes AC20 cats a problem, and it makes SRM boats a problem, because heat is pretty much removed from the game. DHS need a working over. badly

once these 2 things are fixed gausscat will come rooooooaring back and we will have to complain about them again.

Edited by That Guy, 06 February 2013 - 08:32 PM.

[Kell Commander]

I have no issues with the A1 other than I hate when a team has 4 of them all rocking 6 SRM 6's. A better matchmaker can fix that though. The Catapult having tons of missiles is the point of a Catapult.

The K2 on the other hand I don't like at all. I HATE ballistic boating Catapults. I picture that swap like if someone changed a 50 cal turret on a Humvee and replaced it with the main cannon from an Abrams. Unfortunately, This game's unrealistic complete customization adds too much to the game to simply remove now. I would like to see the hard points on mechs be restricted in size, but I think too much of the community would rage rant on the forums or quit to be worth the fix.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Vassago Rain, on 06 February 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:

I don't think they'll ever get to it, which is why operation: steak sauce was initiated. If no one's gonna do anything, then we're simply gonna play with the mech to its full potential.

yes that "operation" will be succesfull netcode has almost put ravens in their place and i'm sure ecm is still being reviewed and streaks with it.

when more players learn just to alpha the "please hit" me boxes on a1's the mech's potency will drop.

[Vassago Rain]

That Guy, on 06 February 2013 - 08:25 PM, said:

rather than treating the symptoms, we need to treat the causes.

the biggest problem now is with SRM stacking. what that means is all launchers fire from the same missile tubes at the same time. so 6 tubes are launching 18 missiles in a very tight and compact formation. this gives grouped SRMs a huge advange because the surface area is so small concentrating damage. each launcher needs to launch from different tubes. and if not enough tubes are available, fire sequentially, like it currently is handled for large launchers.

the same applies for staked autocannons. if the model only has one weapon port, the shots need to be fired sequentially


also the way double heat sinks work now kinda breaks the game. that free 20 totally breaks the game. makes PPC boats a problem. makes AC20 cats a problem, and it makes SRM boats a problem, because heat is pretty much removed from the game. DHS need a working over

once these 2 things are fixed gausscat will come rooooooaring back and we will have to complain about them again.

Why do you want to make the few good guns in the game bad? Cats would then boat anything else that's good.
That's what their hardpoints allow them to do.

Energy is really strong? Take a C1 or K2. Boat them to high heaven.
Ballistics are great? K2 lets you boat them, and they're almost untouchable in your side torsos.
Missiles!? Everything except K2 can use these.

Even when combos are good, like right now, there's a catapult that can use it.

Cats need their torso twist range reduced. It's that simple. You shouldn't be allowed to shoot behind you when you can jumpjet, and boat, and have small sides, and your shape makes damage sometimes outright disappear into thin air.

Jumpjets need an overhaul, too. That's been known forever.

The problem is the mech, not the guns. No other mech is this meta-adaptable. Do you remember when they first tinkered with the balance, and gauss became really strong? I was saying we'd only see gauss from then on out, and that's what happened.

[SUBZERO8K]

No to all three, and I say this as someone who doesn't even pilot Catapults.

[Vassago Rain]

GalaxyBluestar, on 06 February 2013 - 08:27 PM, said:

yes that "operation" will be succesfull netcode has almost put ravens in their place and i'm sure ecm is still being reviewed and streaks with it.

when more players learn just to alpha the "please hit" me boxes on a1's the mech's potency will drop.

We run boomcats and K2s. That's 36 SRM tubes, and whatever big ballistic/laser combo you want on the K2. Streaks? Lagshield isn't strong enough to make lights tank 36 SRMs.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Vassago Rain, on 06 February 2013 - 08:31 PM, said:

We run boomcats and K2s. That's 36 SRM tubes, and whatever big ballistic/laser combo you want on the K2. Streaks? Lagshield isn't strong enough to make lights tank 36 SRMs.

well you don't have to win me over i know the srm stacking is a bit too strong and the k2's being capable of weilding duel gauss and ac20's is way out of line like lolololol MW3 stuff. still we'll see if you make an impression though i doubt that you will.

[Vassago Rain]

GalaxyBluestar, on 06 February 2013 - 08:34 PM, said:

well you don't have to win me over i know the srm stacking is a bit too strong and the k2's being capable of weilding duel gauss and ac20's is way out of line like lolololol MW3 stuff. still we'll see if you make an impression though i doubt that you will.

We're past the point where the goal is to make an impression. If they haven't touched the mechs for this long, there's a strong chance they're intended to be this way.

So we're just playing around in the cats, that happen to be supergood, and killing people while quoting the cartoon.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

the "no" option is destroying this poll

[Critical Fumble]

Vassago Rain, on 06 February 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:

They've got something like 270 degrees of twist. That doesn't seem fair to me, and many of us told them this would cause problems.

Indeed, it was causing problems months and months ago, back when I first made this account. Before I even bought founders. Catapults have needed an overhaul for as long as the game's existed, but they still haven't gotten one.

I don't think they'll ever get to it, which is why operation: steak sauce was initiated. If no one's gonna do anything, then we're simply gonna play with the mech to its full potential.

That may be it, but high torso twist mostly just makes a mech better at brawling, not necessarily better overall. Unless Brawling is the only way to play the game, that is. But my thought is that every time we get a decided FOTM - LRMs, SSRMs, Gauss, AC/20, SRMs - The Catapult seems to sit at the center of the mess.

GalaxyBluestar, on 06 February 2013 - 08:19 PM, said:

if you can please state your "solution" to the "problem" or state that you're not sure what could be done.

Sorry, the point was that even if the Cat chassis were forced into a neat little balanced box, the mechanics that make it so useful would still remain. Some other chassis would take over, or maybe several chassis would divvy it up; or a new mech down the road would become the "new Cat".

As for solutions? Probably just game development. There have been all kinds of threads about fixing boating in general, some with other issues attached as well, though. My personal favorite is HRR Insanity's ideas, but I'm not sure it would really address missile boating effectively.