440 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

QuantumButler, on 10 February 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

No, we want to change all catapults, get rid of their ridiculous torso twist which makes them the best heavy mech brawlers in the game.

Okay, then are you going to give them arm twists instead? Because, as I said before and am having to point out again, catapults can not move their arms left to right. All the extra torso twist does is make up for their inability to swing their arms. They have the same range of aim as any other mech with arm mounted weapons that can move past the center of their screen left or right.

Catapults are tough because they are 65 tons and have decent armor. SRM6 cats pack a lot of point-blank punch but it's not focused - I can put more damage in a single location with 2xAC20s and 4mls.

If it's a Catapult, stick to 50 meters or so away. If you're getting closer than that it's no different than parking yourself at 500 meters from a 6xPPC Stalker and holding still, then complaining that they're too tough because they can always shoot your cockpit out.

I kill A1s all the time. All the time! I watch other people kill them all the time. I just do so from a bit of a distance. Pop 1 ear off then close. Suddenly my AC20 + 3x SRM6s + 2LPLs make their 3xSRM6s look pretty feeble.

SRM damage scatters. If you're past 50 meters or so it's going to pepper you in a few locations. What you're probably running into is that after you've been shot up a bunch and are missing armor in a few locations then the shotgun effect is more dangerous to you.

A1s are not tougher. Honestly once you learn to keep them at a distance by habit you'll fear the effing Phract a lot more. As a given rule if they can see you they can probably hurt you - in a steady stream until you kill them or they kill you. They'll also be more accurate, picking off your weapons by location at range and then moving in for a kill.

K2 is better all around, more deadly and more flexible.

[valkyrie]

MischiefSC, on 10 February 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

Okay, then are you going to give them arm twists instead? Because, as I said before and am having to point out again, catapults can not move their arms left to right. All the extra torso twist does is make up for their inability to swing their arms. They have the same range of aim as any other mech with arm mounted weapons that can move past the center of their screen left or right.

Time to clear this up. Yes, other 'Mechs can use arm weapons to make up for their lesser twist. However, this doesn't matter as much considering it means only arm-mounted weapons can be brought to bear for the full range of motion; torso-mounted weapons get stopped short. The Catapult on the other hand can bring it's ENTIRE loadout to bear for the entirety of it's twist range. Therein lies the problem.

[Darknight99]

valkyrie, on 10 February 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

You may not be using the C1 "properly" then. The C1 is basically the prime platform for a 4 Large Laser build, especially if you can squeeze SRMs in the ears. The C4 is very similar to the A1, but with a pair of lasers in place of two more missile launchers.

Personally, I'd say you're doing it right and your C1 is how the Catapult should be used according to lore, but by that same token you shouldn't need the 140 degree torso twist since your entire job is to stand behind your team and lob LRMs.

I dont like using srm's becaue they require you to get in far to close. I am the first person to admit I dont brawl. So I run lrm's trust me Ive tried it with streaks and srm6's. I dont enjoy it.

I do want the 140 degree twist because Often times I hang back out of snipers viewer and lob missles to soften up targets. I then move on to a new location. I will often have some raven or cicada find me and circle me. My twist is used as a defense not an offense for the most part. the extra degree of twist is much different than what I found in a hunchback... I just find that the hunchback is to soft for me.

Edited by Darknight99, 10 February 2013 - 09:28 AM.

[valkyrie]

Darknight99, on 10 February 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

I dont like using srm's becaue they require you to get in far to close. I am the first person to admit I dont brawl. So I run lrm's trust me Ive tried it with streaks and srm6's. I dont enjoy it.

I do want the 140 degree twist because Often times I hang back out of snipers viewer and lob missles to soften up targets. I then move on to a new location. I will often have some raven or cicada find me and circle me. My twist is used as a defense not an offense for the most part. the extra degree of twist is much different than what I found in a hunchback... I just find that the hunchback is to soft for me.

Yeah, and I recognize that, as well as the fact that the -C1 actually can't run 4LL, which is why I went back to edit my post (the C1 is the only Cat I haven't used). Like I said in my revised post though, if each 'Mech gets unique quirks like differing twist ranges, the C1 is probably the only one that could have an argument for keeping its large twist range. Even then though, I'd argue that the original lore intent of the Catapult should mean it gets pulled back some, maybe to 120 degrees or so to prevent it from never showing its backside.

[Erasus Magnus]

Vassago Rain, on 06 February 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:

They've got something like 270 degrees of twist. That doesn't seem fair to me, and many of us told them this would cause problems.

Indeed, it was causing problems months and months ago, back when I first made this account. Before I even bought founders. Catapults have needed an overhaul for as long as the game's existed, but they still haven't gotten one.

I don't think they'll ever get to it, which is why operation: steak sauce was initiated. If no one's gonna do anything, then we're simply gonna play with the mech to its full potential.

k2s in some iterations are dangerous, but not outright broken. a1s are somewhat overpowered because of how lrms, ssrms,and streaks interact with each other.

the a1 doesnt even have an energy slot for tag, which is mandatory for lrms builds. together with ecm crippling the ability of lrms, its no wonder they get thrown out of the window.
pretty much same for streaks.
so there is just ONE possible build: mass srms.

i dont think cats need a nerf, besides the bigger side torsos of k2s, when they field massive ballistic weapons. the extreme torso twist is somewhat of a makeup for the lack of arm swing.

i would even propose a slight buff for catapults. they have too big head sections. it could use a slight reduction.

TL;DR

Leave cats alone, rework ecm, lrms and streaks.

Edited by Erasus Magnus, 26 February 2013 - 09:13 PM.

[ChrisOrange]

shouldn't be nerfed...we've already been nerfed and can't do better than 315 XL

[Franchi]

valkyrie, on 10 February 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

Yeah, and I recognize that, as well as the fact that the -C1 actually can't run 4LL, which is why I went back to edit my post (the C1 is the only Cat I haven't used). Like I said in my revised post though, if each 'Mech gets unique quirks like differing twist ranges, the C1 is probably the only one that could have an argument for keeping its large twist range. Even then though, I'd argue that the original lore intent of the Catapult should mean it gets pulled back some, maybe to 120 degrees or so to prevent it from never showing its backside.

And I would argue that the original lore intent of the catapult says it should have MORE torso twist (specifically the A1) because the missile pods should be able to shoot directly behind it.

[Doc Holliday]

Catapults are fine. SRMs do a bit too much damage. I've seen this on my HBK-4SP, my dragons (1C and Flame), and my stalker 5M. I've posted it before.

[ChrisOrange]

I think it's kind of dumb to limit these things at all...or if you do it really should only have 5 degree turning difference between a Stalker and a Cat for example. Stalker torso twist is just another case where this game breaks you just for existing rather than some skill you are good/bad at.

Edited by ChrisOrange, 26 February 2013 - 09:24 PM.

[Erasus Magnus]

Redmond Spiderhammer, on 06 February 2013 - 08:45 PM, said:

with the K2.. if its intended to be small ballistics only... why not move both slots to the CT? you then have choice of AC2 or Machine guns and the art doesn't need to be touched.

^ this.

[Franchi]

Erasus Magnus, on 26 February 2013 - 09:23 PM, said:

^ this.

And then the K2 is gone never to be seen again unless it is in the trial mech rotation or some poor SOB has decides to master it.

For the record I have a ER PPC LL K2, and I had one in closed beta, never used the gauss or the AC20. But is parked because my 3D is better with the loadout in every way.

Edited by Franchi, 26 February 2013 - 09:26 PM.

[Splitpin]

Franchi, on 26 February 2013 - 09:24 PM, said:

And then the K2 is gone never to be seen again unless it is in the trial mech rotation or some poor SOB has decides to master it.

For the record I have a ER PPC LL K2, and I had one in closed beta, never used the gauss or the AC20. But is parked because my 3D is better with the loadout in every way.

Exactly and this is going to keep happening, all good, let's just move on, not wreck whats good now .... though the 3L hmmm

[Roland]

Are pults really that overpowered?

I mean, they have gigantic heads. That's really a non-trivial disadvantage now that the netcode is cleaned up. When netcode improves more, it'll be an even bigger handicap.

[Erasus Magnus]

Franchi, on 26 February 2013 - 09:24 PM, said:

And then the K2 is gone never to be seen again unless it is in the trial mech rotation or some poor SOB has decides to master it.

For the record I have a ER PPC LL K2, and I had one in closed beta, never used the gauss or the AC20. But is parked because my 3D is better with the loadout in every way.

hmm,for me its quite the opposite.
k2 can be used for energy boating just as fine.
try 4ll cat.

why do you think the ctf performs better? i dont get it.
however, i agree that, at the moment, it just performs best as a ballistic platform, while not intended to be one.
perhaps relocate the side torsos ballistics slots to the center torso and add 1 additional ballistics slot in each arm?

regarding the a1, i would propose it to have a more harsh engine limitation as its quirk.

Edited by Erasus Magnus, 26 February 2013 - 09:41 PM.

[Zen Hachetaki]

2 cents inc...

Who cares about load out - we all have access to everything - enough whining about that. One day we will have omnis and we might be able to put anything and everything on them we want - which is the point. This is a tactics game - use what you have effectively, find out what the other team has and counter it - with tactics.

There are certain chassis and weapon mechanics which should be balanced as they are not as easy to account for otherwise - in this case torso rotation. I could care less about boating - all it does is make you vulnerable and mono dimensional. The Catapult's torso rotation ability makes the equation unbalanced - as well as it's twist speed. This definitely disadvantages other chassis. I said Chassis - not players since we ALL can acquire them if we so choose.

What remains is the question for PGI to decide if they want certain chassis to have clear advantages that are hard to counter/replicate on others which basically leads to only certain mechs being used. No one said that everything in BT has to be balanced perfectly, but at the same time, this is also a fantasy game and we want a level of individualization available while we remain competitive in matches.

The rage from some folks eludes me - this is a game, we play to have fun. If you are not having fun, play something else, or buy whatever it is that you seem to think has such an advantage - because you can. They have avoided PTW so far, these mechs people are complaining about are available for Cbills - not MC. Please have fun, find things that seem IMBA, tell folks about it, but ease up on the rage, the insults, and the whining. Please.

Apologies for rambling...

Edited by Zen Hachetaki, 26 February 2013 - 10:08 PM.

[Franchi]

Erasus Magnus, on 26 February 2013 - 09:38 PM, said:

hmm,for me its quite the opposite.
k2 can be used for energy boating just as fine.
try 4ll cat.

why do you think the ctf performs better? i dont get it.
however, i agree that, at the moment, it just performs best as a ballistic platform, while not intended to be one.
perhaps relocate the side torsos ballistics slots to the center torso and add 1 additional ballistics slot in each arm?

regarding the a1, i would propose it to have a more harsh engine limitation as its quirk.

CTF-3d has JJ's and has more heatsinks with an equivalent payload and speed when energy boating, ergo better.

[roguetrdr]

Skill is OP, nerf skill.

Honestly I see so many players using skill to their advantage and getting heaps of kills because they have worked hard and developed their skill. It's a massive flaw in the game and PGI just aren't doing a single thing about it.

[ChrisOrange]

roguetrdr, on 26 February 2013 - 10:21 PM, said:

Skill is OP, nerf skill.

Honestly I see so many players using skill to their advantage and getting heaps of kills because they have worked hard and developed their skill. It's a massive flaw in the game and PGI just aren't doing a single thing about it.

developed their skill...yah....Well...that might be possible if the game let you show skillful gameplay. I like the part where practicing something 1000 times is no different than practicing it 3 times in this game :c)

[Teralitha]

Vassago Rain, on 06 February 2013 - 08:16 PM, said:

Here's how this would be fixed, once and for all.

Catapults need their extremely large torso twist reduced. They can currently shoot behind them.
Jumpjets need to not let you turn 180 in the air.
Big guns on the K2 should be properly displayed on the model, like the game does for the arm energy slots.

Tinkering with the hardpoints doesn't do anything, except make the mech useless. Forcing a 'no twist' on them as a quirk also makes them useless.

The chassis is fine. Its the weapons they boat, that need a nerf. Like the SRM...

[MustrumRidcully]

Erasus Magnus, on 26 February 2013 - 09:11 PM, said:

k2s in some iterations are dangerous, but not outright broken. a1s are somewhat overpowered because of how lrms, ssrms,and streaks interact with each other.

now that we have doulbe heat sinks, I agree. But the Catapult K2 with 2 Gauss Rifles or 2 Ultra AC/5s used to be one of the most powerful builds you could have, because every other mech was a lot less heat efficient if it wanted to deal similar damage.

Of course, back then the problem was simply - ballistic weapons were imbalanced. They were considerably more powerful than energy weapons simply because you didn't need a gazillion of heat sinks to sustain your fire. Now that it's only half a gazillion of heat sinks, energy weapons are competitive.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 26 February 2013 - 11:42 PM.