233 replies to this topic

[Zerstorer Stallin]

The OP is 100% correct here. SSRM are a I win buttone for lights. SSRM should only corse correct not full on track you were every you go. I know the table top version, I like many of you, played it for years. Though faithful to the TT version of our game, regretable as it is, should be change to make MWO a better longer lasting game with fun mechanics for everyone.

[wwiiogre]

Wait till clan comes in and you see SSRM6 boats, think there is crying now? Yep streak SRM6 boats. Meaning 4-6 SSRM6 on a medium or lighter mech. Used to put 2-4 on my 40 ton omni. In table top they are balanced because you cannot always fire them if you don't roll high enough to lock on, but in MWO they fire as fast as you cycle if you keep lock. Do the math its devastating. A 100 ton omni can boat 8-10 of these or 60 ssrm always hitting for a 150 point alpha.

Chris

[Joanna Conners]

Zerstorer Stallin, on 08 February 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

The OP is 100% correct here. SSRM are a I win buttone for lights. SSRM should only corse correct not full on track you were every you go. I know the table top version, I like many of you, played it for years. Though faithful to the TT version of our game, regretable as it is, should be change to make MWO a better longer lasting game with fun mechanics for everyone.

Why? Why should a light get all the advantage? Not every mech in this game is able to take on every other mech. You've got to work together to solve problems.

[ATao]

Omg not another streak thread %)) .

Guys. Search those forums for LAG SHIELD. Check "Command Chair" where fishguys say how they are going to fix it. After lagshield is fixed lasers are going to be new main weapon for lights. Point damage is that much better than spread-over-target. Streaks are popular only because they are the best way to counter light's lagshield.

JUST F***ING W8 FOR LAG SHIELD FIX and s t f u eh!

Edited by Alexander Malthus, 08 February 2013 - 04:11 PM.

[Gaan Cathal]

Alexander Malthus, on 08 February 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

Omg not another streak thread %)) .

Guys. Search those forums for LAG SHIELD. Check "Command Chair" where fishguys say how they are going to fix it. After lagshield is fixed lasers are going to be new main weapon for lights. Point damage is that much better than spread-over-target. Streaks are popular only because they are the best way to counter light's lagshield.

JUST F***ING W8 FOR LAG SHIELD FIX and s t f u eh!

And then check the patch notes from the patch before current one where they introduce the lagshield fix?

[ATao]

Care to link it ? Afaik THIS lsfix is not implemented. Some "internal crytek engine layer lag" thing was fixed. Not the main problem that they are planning to solve with hmm "re-winding" %) .

Edited by Alexander Malthus, 08 February 2013 - 04:20 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

MischiefSC, on 08 February 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

I kill 3Ls individually all the time. Drop with 4 of them. Are they more or less difficult than, say, 4x jenner pilots of the same skill?

You're trying to conflate a tiny, tiny sliver of the games population (how long is the average 8v8 queue again) with some sort of balance. I could probably say the same thing of clan tech. Drop 4 mechs with clan ERPPCs in a 8v8 match and I'm sure some enterprising individuals will find a way to work out a tactic to deal with the fact that they are, indeed, utterly out of balance with everything else in play and have to be address accordingly.

Your argument borders on a strawman. The question isn't some abstract 'can you beat this' but instead 'is this comparable with everything else in game?' That is what 'balanced' is in reference to in this case.

I watched premade teams of skilled individuals get destroyed by this twice today. It's certainly possible that 8v8 teams practicing how to deal with this can do so - the whole concept is that they should be able to deal with anything, right? That is an irrelevant observation however when talking about game balance.

You are attempting to conflate 'some people in some circumstances with the right team and the right training and the right loadout can deal with this' with 'is this balanced on par with all other weapons and items and mechs in the game'.

These are two different things.

I refer to my original post at #215. That is balanced. Attempting to justify imbalance in the way you're implying is almost a reductio ad absurdum. I respect your opinion but please consider that balance needs to stand on its own regardless of player skill. Two players of like skill no matter how high or low in otherwise balanced kit should be matched. If they are not then the problem lies with the games balance of equipment, not the players.

You're jumping around far too much to accuse me of strawmanning.

You can't say that a premade team of skilled individuals is incapable of handling 4 RVN-3Ls and then say "Talking about the 8v8 queue is off limits". Any skilled individual, premade or not, should be more than capable of handling an RVN-3L. They're not hard to hit.

Can 4 Ravens melt a single Mech pretty quickly? Sure. But so can 4 of anything. How would a lance of Ravens fare against a Heavy or Assault Lance in a fight? Not too bloody well, I can promise you that. By the time the Ravens closed to 270m and got their first missile volleys off, half of them would be dead or ready to fall over.

Some things are just easier to use at a low skill level, and pay for that accessibility with a lower maximum output. That is just how games work. Pretty soon I'm going to start hearing about how the Automatic Transmission option on Arcade Racing games is imbalanced because it lets anyone drive without learning how to shift gears.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 08 February 2013 - 04:33 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Vlad Ward, on 08 February 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

You're jumping around far too much to accuse me of strawmanning.

You can't say that a premade team of skilled individuals is incapable of handling 4 RVN-3Ls and then say "Talking about the 8v8 queue is off limits". Any skilled individual, premade or not, should be more than capable of handling an RVN-3L. They're not hard to hit.

Can 4 Ravens melt a single Mech pretty quickly? Sure. But so can 4 of anything. How would a lance of Ravens fare against a Heavy or Assault Lance in a fight? Not too bloody well, I can promise you that. By the time the Ravens closed to 270m and got their first missile volleys off, half of them would be dead or ready to fall over.

Some things are just easier to use at a low skill level, and pay for that accessibility with a lower maximum output. That is just how games work. Pretty soon I'm going to start hearing about how the Automatic Transmission option on Arcade Racing games is imbalanced because it lets anyone drive without learning how to shift gears.

Regardless of skill level, the point is that 4x 3L ravens are superior not just to other lights but 4 medium mechs, or 4 heavies for that matter. Assaults are not too reasonable as lights are set up to counter assaults. I'm not saying that talking about 8v8 queue is off limits, I'm saying that your argument of 'well, in the 8v8 queue it's not that tough to deal with 3Ls' is a conditional limitation you're putting in to attempt to justify an imbalance by saying that with enough skill you can balance anything. If Ravens were not more effective than other light mechs they would not be as common as it's implied they are in the 8v8 queue.

The point is >8 points of auto-hit damage per mech per weapon cycle that can only be countered by ECM - which this mech carries. In terms of DPS that actually ends up on target it's out of scope with other weapons. It's a matter of being able to inescapably apply damage in a fight vs having to aim to apply damage in a fight and the multiplier this creates with groups. >8 *4/3.5 seconds that can not really be dodged or countered and always hits torsos, primarily center torso. The mech is inherently capable of countering the only thing that can block the advantage of ECMs. The commando can as well but is so lightly armored it can't put it to the same effect. The Atlas also can but lacks the speed to put it to the same effect.

It has the same or better armor and speed as any mech in its class. Regardless of skill level this advantage has no counter that 4 Ravens can not, in turn, override. Or are you saying that contrary to what everyone else is complaining about Raven 3Ls are not common in 8v8s? I admit I have no experience with them save what everyone else talks about.

You're also attempting to equate the approach of 4x light mechs on 4x heavies as being over an open field. Having watched 2 self-announced premade 4x drops who were otherwise doing great get dissolved by this just today I can comfortably say that most squad-dropping 3L pilots are not doing the daylight charge across the minefield.

Don't try to put this back into reductio ad absurdum by equating SSRMs + ECM and their balance (or lack of it) with automatic transmissions.

Either items are balanced in their own right or they are not. If they are not balanced and your solution is to say that eventually with enough skill and teamwork you can learn to get around it then what you're doing is trying to brush off the imbalance via indirect challenge to aptitude - that the problem is just that nobody else is good enough to handle it. It's not a real answer. ECM and missile balance is off, like most imbalances it is magnified by concentration. 4x Jenners with 4xml and 2xsrm4s are not as effective as 4x Raven 3ls with ECM, 2xSSRMs and lasers of choice. Individually some skill has to do with it but even in 1 on 1 matches with other lights a raven with Streaks and SSRMs vs any light without ECM has a critical advantage.

To bypass the argument I'm not saying it's unstoppable. I'm saying it's out of balance comparable to all other options like ballistics or lasers or non-streak missiles. I'm saying that ECM compounds the issue because it stacks in groups and limits the ability of using the same weapon back at them or other good counter weapons (LRMs from support) that deter other light mechs from attacking heavier mechs.

So your take is that groups of Ravens are in no way more effective than groups of other mechs specifically because of their ECM/Streak combo? That the problem is that everyone just needs to run in 8v8 drops where it's not as serious an issue?

I'm just trying to understand your argument. Are you saying that 4x3Ls do not have an advantage over any other mech in their weight class, or in fact mechs 20 tons heavier? Without specifically loading out, say, 4x Centurions, for fighting 3Ls would you say 4 standard loadout Centurions with a mix of SRMs, ACs, LRMs and lasers piloted by people of equal skill are not at a sever disadvantage?

This is inherently what imbalanced is. It's not a matter of some weapons 'topping out' sooner or being easier at lower levels. That argument alone lacks substance because a skilled enough player can put any loadout to good use. An expert 2xAC20 Catapult player is still damn deadly regardless of your ability to keep them at range - if you know where they are and what they're carrying. Skill improves effectiveness.

[Lyoto Machida]

Taurich, on 07 February 2013 - 01:16 AM, said:

I would be much happier with streaks if the locking crosshair was attached to the right section.

IE I should not be able to lock my torso mounted streaks with my arm crosshairs. I should have to level the torso crosshairs on the target to achieve a lock

Wow...somehow, I never noticed this fact. I guess I don't run streaks enough.

Vlad Ward, on 08 February 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

You're jumping around far too much to accuse me of strawmanning.

You can't say that a premade team of skilled individuals is incapable of handling 4 RVN-3Ls and then say "Talking about the 8v8 queue is off limits". Any skilled individual, premade or not, should be more than capable of handling an RVN-3L. They're not hard to hit.

Can 4 Ravens melt a single Mech pretty quickly? Sure. But so can 4 of anything. How would a lance of Ravens fare against a Heavy or Assault Lance in a fight? Not too bloody well, I can promise you that. By the time the Ravens closed to 270m and got their first missile volleys off, half of them would be dead or ready to fall over.

Some things are just easier to use at a low skill level, and pay for that accessibility with a lower maximum output. That is just how games work. Pretty soon I'm going to start hearing about how the Automatic Transmission option on Arcade Racing games is imbalanced because it lets anyone drive without learning how to shift gears.

The top tier of racing cars in the world (Formula 1) have what is more or less a (semi) automatic transmission (paddle shifting with no clutch). Technology has gotten to a point where an average driver will most likely be faster in an auto vs a manual trans...how are you gonna outshift a machine?

Edited by Lyoto Machida, 08 February 2013 - 05:27 PM.

[Glythe]

Gaan Cathal, on 08 February 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

So there would be no balance problem with a .5 ton upgrade for lasers and/or ballistics that made them autotrack instead of needing to be aimed?

See here's the problem....

Streaks are 100% foiled by ECM so that's a hell of a nerf right there. In the second place lasers still aren't doing 100% damage to lights. The last patch helped but it still isn't as much damage as they should be taking. Streaks are also shot down by AMS if fired from beyond 150m and that too nerfs them quite a bit.

Windsaw, on 08 February 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

The Streak-Commando is almost as good.
There's a bit of a difference but not enough that removing the Raven 3L would remove the problem. It would only shift it.

Because lasers still aren't doing full damage to lights and that means they are getting extra bonus armor as a result. The commando has 32 armor max in the chest while the raven has 44 max armor. Remember this game doubles armor so double those values (64/88). Now then let's say the lag shield still gives about 25% extra armor (that's my guess right now from streak+4ML rakes across ravens). That gives the commando 80 and the raven 110 armor. If you divide that evenly across the front and the back you have 40 armor compared to 55 armor.

I've seen enemy commandos go down from 2 laser rakes and 2 srm volleys from my Atlas (unfortunately theres no telling if they had maxed armor). That's 68 damage last time I checked although the streaks can mess up the equation so let's just call it 3 laser rakes at 20 damage each.

Meanwhile I've seen a raven take 6 rakes from my Atlas (usually can't use streaks either) and still not be dead yet. Please show me how a raven is going to soak 120 damage and not have lost something yet (was only shooting his torso because I had lost my AC/20 and can't use streaks).

The point I'm trying to make is that just a little more armor on the raven is multiplied several times to give it a HELL of a lot more armor. And then you remember that the Raven carries streaks and medium lasers AND more ammo for the streaks than the commando while still maintaining top speed.

I conclude that right now there is no reason to play the commando when you could play the raven instead. But when we get tonnage drop limits it will be a different story. Any fool can excel with the Raven 3L right now but playing anything else is quite difficult by comparison.

Edited by Glythe, 08 February 2013 - 09:44 PM.

[DerHuhnTeufel]

The way streaks are implemented in this game is flat out broken and they need to be removed until they require some method of aiming and they can't be fired at 270 degrees.

[Gaan Cathal]

Glythe, on 08 February 2013 - 09:43 PM, said:

Streaks are 100% foiled by ECM so that's a hell of a nerf right there. In the second place lasers still aren't doing 100% damage to lights. The last patch helped but it still isn't as much damage as they should be taking. Streaks are also shot down by AMS if fired from beyond 150m and that too nerfs them quite a bit.

Firstly, they probably shouldn't be nerfed by ECM, secondly, an AMS only works at further than 200m and can only shoot down one missile (so loosing 2.5 damage from one volley). Thirdly, I've not seen any information/data/evidence anywhere yet on 'lasers still not doing 100% damage to lights'. I've seen plenty of posts on the other hand, about how happy folks are they can now laser/ballistic/SRM lights.

Glythe, on 08 February 2013 - 09:43 PM, said:

Because lasers still aren't doing full damage to lights and that means they are getting extra bonus armor as a result. The commando has 32 armor max in the chest while the raven has 44 max armor. Remember this game doubles armor so double those values (64/88). Now then let's say the lag shield still gives about 25% extra armor (that's my guess right now from streak+4ML rakes across ravens). That gives the commando 80 and the raven 110 armor. If you divide that evenly across the front and the back you have 40 armor compared to 55 armor.

Again, where is this 25% armour buff number actually coming from? I've noticed no reduction in damage, specific to lasers or otherwise, while being fired at in my lights, or when firing at lights.

Additionally, the current totals in the game are already numerically doubled, as far as I'm aware. So 32/44 max CT armour is the actual doubled value. So even if your '25% light armour buff' wasn't mythical, that would be 40 and 55 respectively. The fact that you've got this basic element of your argument wrong (and no, I'm not a BT TT player, I just spent five minutes with google) makes me even less inclined to accept your 25% buff assertion.

Glythe, on 08 February 2013 - 09:43 PM, said:

I've seen enemy commandos go down from 2 laser rakes and 2 srm volleys from my Atlas (unfortunately theres no telling if they had maxed armor). That's 68 damage last time I checked although the streaks can mess up the equation so let's just call it 3 laser rakes at 20 damage each.

Meanwhile I've seen a raven take 6 rakes from my Atlas (usually can't use streaks either) and still not be dead yet. Please show me how a raven is going to soak 120 damage and not have lost something yet (was only shooting his torso because I had lost my AC/20 and can't use streaks).

Mk. Firstly there's no combination of three lasers that does twenty damage. Secondly, from the way you're talking about 'raking' with lasers, you are clearly not delivering full damage to the CT compartment, or it's armour. Assuming (generously) you use an AS7-RS with four large lasers in the arms (generous because the other 4-energy Atlai/Atlases/Atlapodes mount two in the torso, making it much harder to peg a light with all four) then each beam-on is 40 damage. Assuming you hit with the entire beam duration, only on the Raven's CT you will strip armour unless they have no rear CT defense. In all likelyhood you will killshot it.. You are unlikely to only hit the CT, so spreading that damage over the CT, RT and RA puts it up against 60-70 armour, depending on distribution, and that is still assuming you hit with the entire beam.

Glythe, on 08 February 2013 - 09:43 PM, said:

The point I'm trying to make is that just a little more armor on the raven is multiplied several times to give it a HELL of a lot more armor. And then you remember that the Raven carries streaks and medium lasers AND more ammo for the streaks than the commando while still maintaining top speed.

Firstly, your point is clearly wrong, secondly, the relative balance of the two best streak-boating lights doesn't really weigh much on the balance of the streak itself now, does it?

[Cest7]

OP brings up good points.

ECM+Streak = OP.

[BigJim]

Zylo, on 07 February 2013 - 12:52 AM, said:

Streaks were not commonly used before the removal of collision knockdowns. Knocking down a lagging enemy light was the best way to kill it in closed beta.

One Medic Army, on 07 February 2013 - 12:52 AM, said:

That was also before they hit 100% and had their damage *fixed* (I.E. fixed to do proper damage, rather than the reduced damage they'd been doing prior).
Safe to say that they've been significantly buffed since collisions were removed.
The 100% hit thing is the big one, prior to that you'd need to lead light mechs to hit them with streaks.

This.

Please, nobody should kid themselves that brining back collisions will in any way diminish the Streak as the de-facto Light mech weapon, because it won't.

We used to tackle lights and focus them with lasers, because we all carried lasers, and Lights were easy to kill when they were tackled.

Why did we all carrry 6x Sml Lasers? Because they put out more damage than Streaks, simple.

Since that time, Streaks' damage has increased by 100%, thus making them more powerful *and* 100% accurate.
All that collisions will mean is that a tackled Light is focussed by Streaks, instead of lasers.

Quote

Returning knockdowns will reduce the need for streaks against other light mechs and might encourage a return to the closed beta style of having 1 light tackle an enemy light while other mechs focus fire on the knocked down enemy light to kill it before it can stand back up.

1) Why settle for "might" (more like "won't") when a better way is to fix the streak itself, not follow some convoluted chain of logic that probably won't sort the issue out anyway.

and 2) Having tackles be the #1 way to fight Lights isn't a desirable outcome anyway.
All it does is turn the Light-game into a scrappy little pug-fest with no finesse.

Right now 2x Lights will always beat 1x Light, due to ECM and streaks, with no room for greater skill to win the day.
If you really want tackles to be the best/only way to fight Lights vs Light, then the route you advocate means that 2x Lights will always beat 1x Light with no room for skill to win the day.
What do you think you will have achieved?

Sure, collisions have to be in in order to introduce jeopardy to the fight, so make it so you can't just run blindly & spam all day, but debasing the Light-game to the point where the only successful way to battle is to run into someone and knock him down is just bad, bad design.