44 replies to this topic

[Ilwrath]

Taizan, on 07 February 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

Damage / score won't be the only stat that gets included afaik.

You are right about that. I really hope so or I will be in bad trouble because I now mostly drive lrm stalker and it get lots of "fake" damage. What I don't get is why they have to take all these tiny phase-changes all the time. Why not do that on their internal test server?

[Ilwrath]

Bguk, on 07 February 2013 - 06:31 AM, said:

As for this comment you made earlier, "There is no place for the weak in war. Its a shame they can hide in premades in this game.", I find that one pretty ironic.

I do fine alone, I would love to meet the premaders running in a solo que, but with teams. Not because I want some silly duel game but because, as we all know, its easier to run in group. The clan wars should be the premades playground.

I guess I cannot resist baiting a little but enough of this.

[Bguk]

Ilwrath, on 07 February 2013 - 06:39 AM, said:

You are right about that. I really hope so or I will be in bad trouble because I now mostly drive lrm stalker and it get lots of "fake" damage. What I don't get is why they have to take all these tiny phase-changes all the time. Why not do that on their internal test server?

They have a higher pool of people to work with on the live server. More numbers equate to more reliable data. Incremental changes are always better because, again, a "perfect" system does not come right out of the box.

[Ilwrath]

MischiefSC, on 07 February 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

Maps are a problem but we've got new ones coming in a few weeks. I can understand that it can get tiring to do the same thing again and again though. I've taken to just trying new tactics and going different places. With the change in color quality though I've noticed some new stuff - hit the cave in Forrest Colony without thermal on now. It's pretty cool. I've also discovered some new locations in Caustic Valley. If things are getting dull while waiting for new maps try changing up what you do on them.

Yes you have to do something yourself to spice it up. I mostly focus on different mechs/weapons. For a long time I loathed LRM's and their users. This may be a side effect of mostly using different awesomes :-p and lasers.

Game got stale and I changed over to PPC's. Then PPC's on a stalker when that got released. And now LRM boating Stalker.

I think this is the only way to have some fun right now. The maps are so small that it limits the options for what you can do. If you only run what is most op, the game gets really dull. Unless you get a ***** from winning with ease all the time. Games are pointless if there is no challenge.

I still find it hard to understand all the premades that left the 8 man que for easer play in the 4 man. Yes I know there is more factors than just easy mode but still...

Bguk, on 07 February 2013 - 06:48 AM, said:

They have a higher pool of people to work with on the live server.

I guess. They may also have very bad internal testers for all we know. Remember Artemis.

Edited by Ilwrath, 07 February 2013 - 06:50 AM.

[Bguk]

Ilwrath, on 07 February 2013 - 06:50 AM, said:

I still find it hard to understand all the premades that left the 8 man que for easer play in the 4 man. Yes I know there is more factors than just easy mode but still...

You have a lot of mysteries in gaming and things to not understand. It's simple. There are those out there that care about stats. Those players will do everything they can to get the best stats possible.

[MischiefSC]

Ilwrath, on 07 February 2013 - 06:43 AM, said:

I do fine alone, I would love to meet the premaders running in a solo que, but with teams. Not because I want some silly duel game but because, as we all know, its easier to run in group. The clan wars should be the premades playground.

I guess I cannot resist baiting a little but enough of this.

Here's the funny thing about Elo though. Premade teams had the option to go to 8 mans and amazingly, after it was found that most the people in 8 mans were hardcore team players that ruthlessly crushed the teams that just showed up to farm pubs 8-mans were almost abandoned.

There isn't a way to opt out of your Elo score though. So you play with a team that is very, very good together (at least against pugs) and has a high win rate and high KDR. Remember all those groups in the 8-man queue you were avoiding? Well, no way to avoid them now. Drop with a team? That's who you'll drop with. Drop pug? Hey, guess what - it's like pugging in the 8-man queue now! At least until you get beaten so much so badly game after game after game, losing only 2 points or so each time you lose, that you drop down into a lower bracket.

We're talking something akin to 25 or 50 losses more than wins here just for a tiny, tiny position change. Given that it's more than win/loss in the system by the sound of it you'd have to not just lose but lose badly.

The best premade teams will rise to the top and kudos to them I say. Once there, that's where they will stay - inescapably more or less. The teams that seem to offend you the most will get beaten, again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again, tanking their stats all across the board, until they reach a level where they win about 50% of the time. No more 80/20 win-loss ratio, no more 6.0 or 7.0 KDR, no more steamrolling games. They'll have to play harder every single game just to break even and come out of a painful freefall in their stats.

Just wait. It'll be comedy gold.

For pugs the change will be the opposite. Imagine if every game where you got rolled because you had at least 1 AFK and 2 people who ran the opposite direction and died were instead replaced with people as good as yourself. No more watching your team scatter like pigeons. You play with teamwork in chat? You'll settle into a level where most everyone else you play with is looking for the same level of coordination.

Elo is going to be like christmas for someone like you. The people who really bug you, teams who are out to stomp pugs, are going to get beaten down until they quit trying to get up and accept their place. Pugs who like teamwork and play well together will fall into their own crowd, running together most game.

As to new mechs, I alternate matches now between a Jenner and an Atlas. It's.... interesting. Especially when I start the match and forget which I'm in. It's made me a better Atlas pilot that's for sure. Play around, have fun. Change is coming, it's just painful to wait sometimes.

[Ilwrath]

Bguk, on 07 February 2013 - 06:53 AM, said:

You have a lot of mysteries in gaming and things to not understand. It's simple. There are those out there that care about stats. Those players will do everything they can to get the best stats possible.

Care about inflated stats that will soon get wiped? How exactly can stats matter if you know that they are inflated and nobody else get impressed because they too know that they are inflated?

MischiefSC, on 07 February 2013 - 06:53 AM, said:

Here's the funny thing about Elo though. Premade teams had the option to go to 8 mans and amazingly, after it was found that most the people in 8 mans were hardcore team players that ruthlessly crushed the teams that just showed up to farm pubs 8-mans were almost abandoned.

There isn't a way to opt out of your Elo score though. So you play with a team that is very, very good together (at least against pugs) and has a high win rate and high KDR. Remember all those groups in the 8-man queue you were avoiding? Well, no way to avoid them now. Drop with a team? That's who you'll drop with. Drop pug? Hey, guess what - it's like pugging in the 8-man queue now! At least until you get beaten so much so badly game after game after game, losing only 2 points or so each time you lose, that you drop down into a lower bracket.

-----cut lots of stuff------------

When Elo is done we will see. I hope it ends up as you think it will do.

[Joseph Mallan]

Inviticus, on 07 February 2013 - 05:38 AM, said:

Sounds like an easy way to exploit to me. Instead, the group should function at the ELO rating of the individual with the highest or weighting the average so that the lower the ELO of an individual member, the less it counts towards the group rating which will ensure that high ELO players aren't sandbagging into lower tier games.

i could live with this... Push me a bit harder though I assure you. But I can work with that.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ilwrath, on 07 February 2013 - 06:43 AM, said:

I do fine alone, I would love to meet the premaders running in a solo que, but with teams. Not because I want some silly duel game but because, as we all know, its easier to run in group. The clan wars should be the premades playground.

I guess I cannot resist baiting a little but enough of this.

I drop for 2-3 hours a night as a PUG. My stats are the same as when I team drop. Now the Win Loss is better as a Lawman, but When I PUG i am more interested in how I do not the team. I cannot control how the PUG team will work together.

[MischiefSC]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 February 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

I drop for 2-3 hours a night as a PUG. My stats are the same as when I team drop. Now the Win Loss is better as a Lawman, but When I PUG i am more interested in how I do not the team. I cannot control how the PUG team will work together.

If someone suggests tactics in chat do you respond or participate? I like dropping alongside premades and am perfectly happy to follow along but find the opposite is not always true. Even just general ideas like 'boat run' or 'tunnel run' and I'm good. When you pug do you participate in team play at all or are you just out scalp hunting?

[Bguk]

Ilwrath, on 07 February 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

Care about inflated stats that will soon get wiped? How exactly can stats matter if you know that they are inflated and nobody else get impressed because they too know that they are inflated?

So understanding why some players think a certain way equates to caring about my own stats? Believe it or not, there are people out there who do care about them. People are different. I didn't think I was that worldly.

[Znail]

MischiefSC, on 07 February 2013 - 06:00 AM, said:

You'll still drop with and against people a bit up and down the scale from yourself, just not drastically so. The huge bit that will change is that EVERYONE in the match on both sides is going to be of a roughly comparable skill level. That's a big difference and will remove a lot of the 'well, my team is all in trial mechs. Guess I'm going to get rolled' aspect.

This is simply not true. ELO is a zero-sum system and that means that the ones who wins will go up and the ones who loses will go down. That also means that the largest group of players will be the average players that stays around 1300...exactly where new players starts out with their Trial mechs.

[Joseph Mallan]

MischiefSC, on 07 February 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:

If someone suggests tactics in chat do you respond or participate? I like dropping alongside premades and am perfectly happy to follow along but find the opposite is not always true. Even just general ideas like 'boat run' or 'tunnel run' and I'm good. When you pug do you participate in team play at all or are you just out scalp hunting?

Absolutely... Unless its cave rush! If i am in my D-DC I find a fellow assault or Cat and try to keep my bubble over them, If i am in other Mechs I look for the D-DC and provide extra long and short range fire. I do my part, but do not worry about the win as I cannot "make it happen"

Good question though!

[MischiefSC]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 February 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

Absolutely... Unless its cave rush! If i am in my D-DC I find a fellow assault or Cat and try to keep my bubble over them, If i am in other Mechs I look for the D-DC and provide extra long and short range fire. I do my part, but do not worry about the win as I cannot "make it happen"

Good question though!

That's awesome. Please teach classes. It's frustrating as a pug to have people who I know are familiar with teamwork simply refuse to participate.

[MischiefSC]

Znail, on 07 February 2013 - 07:27 AM, said:

This is simply not true. ELO is a zero-sum system and that means that the ones who wins will go up and the ones who loses will go down. That also means that the largest group of players will be the average players that stays around 1300...exactly where new players starts out with their Trial mechs.

They're gathering Elo data already so that we don't all start at 1300. The idea being that newbies will trickle into the middle and their decline will help less skilled players rise. More skilled pug players will rise to a level that lets them largely play with each other.

Unless their is a huge constant stream of new players even at 1300 you're rarely going to encounter new players. most experienced players will generally fall off generally quite a bit over 1300. That's what for me is the 'sweet spot'. Not so high that it's all competitive team play but high enough that you're rarely dropping with new players.

[Vassago Rain]

Ilwrath, on 07 February 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

Care about inflated stats that will soon get wiped? How exactly can stats matter if you know that they are inflated and nobody else get impressed because they too know that they are inflated?



When Elo is done we will see. I hope it ends up as you think it will do.

Chess rankings weren't implemented when this whole thing began, or even on the table. it came like a lightning bolt, and still remains a very new concept.

Most of the stompers don't even come to the forum. They're not aware this is what's happening.

Just wait. It'll be glorious.

[Sprouticus]

The fact that you flanked in a pug game by yourself screams 'I'm a special flower' and 'rambo'. Trying staying with the team instead of trying to be the hero next time.


As for premades, Im guessing they will adjust the effective ELO for team size and also for mechs taken (BV). I dont have direct proof, but they did say that they were looking at 'other factors' in the system.

Honestly, I would highly prefer the make the formula transparent so we could evaluate it some. But that's just me. I understand that most people are not capable of having a reasonable discussion about such things, as is evidenced by the fact that everyone who runs FOTM mech insists that they are not OP. When a ratinal evaluation of the numbers argues otherwise.

[Ilwrath]

Sprouticus, on 07 February 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

The fact that you flanked in a pug game by yourself screams 'I'm a special flower' and 'rambo'. Trying staying with the team instead of trying to be the hero next time.

The rest of the team did nothing but dying. Flanking alone, if needed, mostly ends with great success.
It got nothing to do with being "special" or "Rambo". I do what I have to do for winning.

You see, a team all gathered up is worthless if it get pinned down by enemy snipers while they struggle to deal with an assault hitting them at the same time. Then someone must deal with the snipers, or at least distract them, so your team can do more than taking cover. If I had moved earlier the match may have ended different.

I am sure we was up against at least one okay premade, possibly two. We also got one (I think) but they moved themself into a bad position and I refuse to do that.

[Bguk]

HC Harlequin, on 07 February 2013 - 05:18 AM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...79-matchmaking/

So getting back to the original topic, this link explains what they expect to happen.

[Vlad Ward]

Nutshell version, for those who don't click links:

Group ELO will be an average. High ELO players will gain little/no benefit for beating weaker opponents. Low ELO players will gain large benefits for beating stronger opponents, quickly raising their ELO and preventing extended stomping. ELO is determined strictly by win/loss and not by game score, damage, kills, etc.

Oh yeah, and low ELO players don't lose points for losing to higher ELO players.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 07 February 2013 - 08:27 AM.