12 replies to this topic

[Signal27]

For all the years I've known of and played all the various iterations of BattleTech, I was never very well versed in the lore beyond all the major houses, clans, and a basic description thereof. So given how often what little lore and fiction I know of always has mechs and their pilots at the front and center, I never got the feeling that mechs were anything more than just another war machine with its own niche on the battlefield - like tanks, aircraft, infantry, ships, submarines, etc. Well I just read some other thread that described mechs as pretty much the end-all-be-all of warfare in the BT universe for some reason? And even the lowliest of mechwarriors are kind of celebrities in their own right if they weren't granted a mech BECAUSE of their social status in the first place.

So is this correct or an exaggeration? Because I also seem to remember portrayals of mechwarriors who were just scraping by and weren't that much better than low-rent criminals who somehow managed to get their hands on a multi-million dollar war machine.

[Skadi]

Demolisher with dual AC/20 > battle mech
All I'm going to say.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Demolisher

Edited by Skadi, 11 February 2013 - 01:06 PM.

[Avalios]

In BT lore(of which i am no expert but just familiar), yes mechs are the end all be all of warfare. Mainly because there is a sense of civility to the warfare of the future. When houses battle for control of a planet they never battle in populated cities and will go out of their way to engage enemy forces away from civilians. Killing the pilot of a disabled mech is considered one of the most dishonorable things that can be done.

WMDs such as nuclear weapons are banned by all sides and almost never see use. When one of the clans used a nuke against another clan every clan teamed up and annihilated the offending nuclear weapons using clan from the face of the galaxy. In the Inner Sphere they have a specific treaty signed by every major house not to use such weapons.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Mechwarriors and Aerospace jocks are pretty much the elite soldiers of BT. Though to be honest, the only real advantage of a mech is its mobility in difficult terrain and ability to mount energy weapons without boosters/capacitors due to its fusion engine. So, for a lot of garrison forces tanks are used because they're cheaper and it's a lot easier to train a tank crew (months as opposed to years).

[LauLiao]

Mechwarriors and 'Mechs are definitely the top of the food chain in terms of the military. Within most major Houses Mechwarriors fill a role somewhat equivalent to a feudal knight. This analogy is even more appropriate when you realize that the Battletech universe is basically just barely emerging from a dark age in 3050. So while 'mechs are the most efficient and powerful fighting force, they are NOT the most common. Most Successor armies are actually made up predominantly of conventional vehicles and infantry. The problem is that much of the technology required to maintain, and especially create new 'mechs has almost completely vanished. Those "low-rent criminals" you refer to are usually actually Mercenary forces/pilots. Mercenaries tend to be poorly paid and have to do much of their repairs from battlefield salvage (even more so than Successor Houses). There are also Periphery kingdoms and Pirate outfits that also field 'mechs, but theirs are usually in poor repair and extremely old.

The description of all 'Mechwarriors as "celebrities" in the 3050 era is probably a bit of an exageration. By 3050 the Houses have started to recover their ability to produce 'Mechs, and even design the first new ones in decades, and thus Mechs and Mechwarriors have become more common. In the 3025 era, however, yes, I'd say virtually anyone piloting a 'mech would have been considered something of a celebrity.

P.S. This is mostly all just from memory, so if anyone spots any errors feel free to correct me.

[LauLiao]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 11 February 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

Though to be honest, the only real advantage of a mech is its mobility in difficult terrain and ability to mount energy weapons without boosters/capacitors due to its fusion engine.

Not entirely true. Conventional vehicles are FAR more fragile than 'Mechs, at least according to TT rules. Given a 'Mech and a conventional vehicle of the same tonnage and approximate armament, I'd give the vehicle half the life expectancy.

Also, some conventional vehicles can and do mount fusion engines.

[Fiachdubh]

Considering a tank does not have to waste tonnage and space on massivly complex systems like legs and such and given that they are more stable with a much lower center of gravity surely they should be able to devote much more space and weight to armour and weapons. While they may not be able to handle terrain as rough as a mech they can move pretty fast and with 360 degree turrets mechs would not have as great a manouverability advantage as BT implies. Tanks and especially aerospace are skanked big time in BT, Aerospace fighters should be much deadlier (from playing all the pc games and reading the novels, cant speak for tt). In MW2 aerospace fighters were damn tough if a bit slow moving whereas in later games they are one or two shot kills.

Edited by Fiachdubh, 11 February 2013 - 05:58 PM.

[Skylarr]

Quote

MechWarrior (pilot)





MechWarrior with her cooling vest and neurohelmet

With the creation of the first BattleMech in the 25th Century the face of battle in the Inner Sphere changed. In the centuries that followed these awesome machines and the men and women that piloted them came to be viewed as the modern incarnation of the Knight-Errant. These masters of the modern battlefield were given honors, and some were even raised to the nobility on the merit of their accomplishments. Over time a social class of MechWarriors formed and a series of traditions became established. During the long years of the Succession Wars, as the Great Houses battled each other for control of the Inner Sphere, many MechWarriors owned their own BattleMechs and a tradition of passing the 'Mech and their responsibilities from one generation to the next within a family line started. These 'Mechs became a treasured resource for those lucky enough to have them and were coveted and repaired again and again over the centuries.

This changed with the end of the Fourth Succession War. With the discovery, development and rapid adoption of many new and old technologies, the ancient 'Mechs that had held the field for so many years became hopelessly outclassed by newer generations of BattleMechs leaving factory lines throughout the Inner Sphere. The average independent MechWarrior could not keep up with the House-sponsored armies in keeping their systems and components up to date and soon fell hopelessly behind. With the coming of the Clans this became even more evident. The change in culture has had grave consequences for the private ownership of BattleMechs. Most of the newer Inner Sphere produced 'Mechs are owned by the various House Militaries, while amongst the Clans all property is owned by the Clan itself and a Clan MechWarrior never owns his own equipment.

The day of a MechWarrior being viewed a a Knight Errant may be passing, but the legends and memories will linger on. Perhaps, when once again there is need, the people of the universe will once again turn to champions to protect them from the dangers without, perhaps the day of the MechWarrior as heroe of the people will return again. Only time will tell

BattleMech

Essay: BattleMech Technology

[Karl Streiger]

Oh Aerospace fighter - even the conventional back water aircrafts like the Boing jump bomber can ruin the day of your ground forces.

There is a food chain at all:

aerospace fighter fight for the space, with really devasting attacks for ground forces - there problem is that they are not able to win - or hold ground.
BattleMechs - can capture and hold ground - a BattleMech with 10t armor protection is thougher as a Tank with 15t of armor protection - you are more mobile - and can use the BattleMech in different theaters of war.
Tanks - as said have some issues with fragility - on the other hand there are some terrains where they are better as a BattleMech - hover crafts over water, wheeled tanks in the city. used with a turret - they have a 360° field of fire making them very usefull in citys.
infantry - only units that are capable of capture buildings, used with the right equipment and the full power of the rule book a company of infantry man can match nearly any opponent - with the exception of BattleMechs that are build to deal with infantry.

When you use all kinds of types - you got a well rounded army list - at moderate costs.

[Bishop Steiner]

LauLiao, on 11 February 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

Not entirely true. Conventional vehicles are FAR more fragile than 'Mechs, at least according to TT rules. Given a 'Mech and a conventional vehicle of the same tonnage and approximate armament, I'd give the vehicle half the life expectancy.

Also, some conventional vehicles can and do mount fusion engines.

True. Which is funny, considering that the the stompy thing with 20 articulated joints would in actuality be much more fragile than something that can mount solid "blocks" of armor, and only has 3 main vulnerable point... turret ring and each tread/drivetrain.

BUUUUUTTTTT... lets face it, Mechs are cooler, so we can't have the logically superior weapons platform actually outperform them.

[Adridos]

LauLiao, on 11 February 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

Mechwarriors and 'Mechs are definitely the top of the food chain in terms of the military. Within most major Houses Mechwarriors fill a role somewhat equivalent to a feudal knight.

Exactly... Agincourt is the best example of the analogy. Clans' honour vs IS underhanded tactics / Mighty battlemech vs a simple tank are both perfect parts you can always refer the Battle of Agincourt to.

I still think a battlemech could have a role in a hypothetical scenario since it is easier on the human factor (and experienced tankers don't grow on trees), because of the much lower crew requirements. And it's size could be used to neglect the tank's nemesis effectivity (air forces decimate tanks, but a mech can have shouldermounted flaks, AA rockets, etc. alongside it's basic weaponry, something the limitted chassis of the tank couldn't even think about).

[KalebFenoir]

Avalios, on 11 February 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

WMDs such as nuclear weapons are banned by all sides and almost never see use. When one of the clans used a nuke against another clan every clan teamed up and annihilated the offending nuclear weapons using clan from the face of the galaxy. In the Inner Sphere they have a specific treaty signed by every major house not to use such weapons.

I think that treaty was the Ares Conventions. Every house did sign on to it, but after a decade or so, when the First Succession War started up, the conventions went right out the window. It was merely considered to be 'extremely bad taste' to nuke cities and kill civilians in the course of the wars. They were formally renounced and rescinded by the SLDF itself (bad move!) and replaced with 'Addendum II' which allowed the SLDF to prosecute full-on planetary war to subdue recalcitrant factions.

Because eventually all sides realized that full-on war was destroying their delicate infrastructure (first casualties of war; destroy the archives and the factories so your enemy can't build the nice stuff they have), everyone reverted to an informal version of the original Ares Conventions. More like a code of honor than a legally binding document.

....I don't think it helped too much, except stave off the loss of almost all high tech creations. :S

[Pht]

Signal27, on 11 February 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

For all the years I've known of and played all the various iterations of BattleTech, I was never very well versed in the lore beyond all the major houses, clans, and a basic description thereof. So given how often what little lore and fiction I know of always has mechs and their pilots at the front and center, I never got the feeling that mechs were anything more than just another war machine with its own niche on the battlefield - like tanks, aircraft, infantry, ships, submarines, etc.

On the 'Mechs themselves:

http://mwomercs.com/...y-an-education/

Vehicles vs 'Mechs (not counting, say, giant blue-water ships, mobile structures, warships/dropships) ... 'Mechs usually have a more than equal chance of beating them simply for two factors:

1: Vehicles can't make more heat than their heatsinks can handle - this means that their damage profile vs their relative mass is going to be lower - they can't trade a massive overheat for a massive damage outupt for their weight.

2: ... and this is huge: Most vee's can't handle a penetrating ("critical") hit. Stuff an ac20 blast that penetrates into an atlas - the atlas has a decent chance of surviving.

Stuff an ac20 shot into a demolisher that penetrates - the crew in the tank is a pretty red mist. Or the ammo bins cook off. or the engine goes, or the tracks fall off ... or you kill one of the crew, rendering the unit all but useless. Mechs are awesome because they can absorb an obscene amount of damage and still function on the battlefield.


----

On Mechwarriors: Depends on what part of the timeline you're in. If you're in scavenger fighting/sucession wars, aka, small unit actions ... yeah. A single MechWarrior can turn the tide, nearly every single time.

Post 4th sucession wars/clan wars ... there's so many 'Mechs running around that mechwarriors have become darn near pedestrian.

Even with all that, nearly every single mechwarrior in space has command-level rank and privileges; if simply for the fact that they, due to their battlefield slot and the command capabilities of their armored combat unit, naturally fall into that slot.