8 replies to this topic

[AV 4 T 4 R]

An idea to solve ECM abuse:

Actually the real ECM problem is "Light + ECM + Streak"

So because the ECM is a defensive equip, let's block the carrier from using any locking weapons. In this mode the other light without ECM would cooperate to Spot it and to kill it without just creating an ECM party vs ECM party.

so ECM + LIGHT = NO locking missile
LIGHTS + SSRM = Counter vs ECM Lights

Just this

[focuspark]

ECM and SSRM problems are separate issue that just happen to compound. Best to fix both directly than to patch with hacks.

[Gremlich Johns]

You mean, if the ECM carrying mech has SSRMs or LRMs, then ECM must be off to get a lock on a target?

[Das Wudone]

1st thing they should do is fix the missiles properly before tweaking ecm. if they gave streaks burn time before homing in on a target + longer cd (1-2 sec longer) + slightly lower damage (.2-.3 damage lower) i think it would be more balanced. also for lrms reduce the damage a bit (.1-.3 damage lower) but make them fly faster (if the swarm travels faster it will have a harder time homing in on a target properly but will reach its destination faster plus it can hit super fast lights). then only after they do that they should remove the ecm lock block as thats how the REAL guardian ecm works in tabletop.

the way they implemented it was as an anti-missile component which was not the intended purpose of guardian ecm. it was supposed to be a stealth component disrupting radar and jamming some electronics only but not missile locks.

[Seravos]

Personally I think that the laser dotting should allow missiles to hit regardless of ECM considering it's a visual tracking.

[RLBell]

Here is an idea to deal with ECM abuse-- LRM ammo with Home-On-Jam.

It would be fun for ECM's to attract LRM's and give ECM a downside.

I freely admit that I would whine less about ECM if I could get it on my Stalker, but I cannot seem to find it on the equipment list.

For something less nasty, just have ECM temporarily shut down by the units own weapons fire, so Atlas's with ECM are less gross and lights are still able to evade a streak cat.

[Crimson Fenris]

Gremlich Johns, on 07 February 2013 - 06:16 PM, said:

You mean, if the ECM carrying mech has SSRMs or LRMs, then ECM must be off to get a lock on a target?

This will not solve the problem, as the lock-on weapons are only available on 3 ECM-capable mechs in the game (a Raven, a Commando and an Atlas).

The ECM+SSRM mech will encounter two cases :
- against a non-ECM mech, it will have to deactivate his ECM, allowing the opponent to retaliate with his own SSRMs.
- against an ECM one, he must go to "counter" mode, with no change of the current situation.

The solution may work if the ECM was only "on/off" capable, wich is currently not.

[Strum Wealh]

Seravos, on 07 February 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

Personally I think that the laser dotting should allow missiles to hit regardless of ECM considering it's a visual tracking.

Except neither of the "laser-guided" missile systems (Artemis IV and TAG) are "beam riders".

"In an effort to enhance the accuracy and lethality of standard missile racks, the first Star League developed the Artemis IV fire-control system. Mounted in a dome near the enhanced launcher, the Artemis was in essence an infrared laser designator, target lock mechanism and tight beam microwave transmitter that - together with specialized missile control systems - helped to focus the spread of all missile volleys so enhanced." (TechManual, pg. 206)

"More than a simple infrared laser-based target designation system, the TAG system tied into the user’s on-board targeting and tracking systems and used its own integral tight-beam laser communications array to link into the receptive guidance systems of certain friendly artillery warheads and guided bombs." (TechManual, pg. 238)

Both Artemis and TAG include the laser designator within themselves, and use an additional transmitter (radio-based for the Artemis, and laser-based for the TAG) to send the targeting information from the launching 'Mech to the missiles in flight.
In the case of TAG with an independent spotter: the targeting information is sent from the TAG unit to the TAG-carrier's targeting system, which is then sent from the TAG-carrier's targeting system to the missile-carrier's targeting system, which is then sent from the missile-carrier's targeting system to the missiles in flight via a laser using a technique known as "free-space optical communication".
Artemis works the same way, but is more self-contained (no independent spotter) and uses microwave (that is, radio) transmissions to transfer targeting data from the missile-carrying 'Mech to the missiles in flight.

Neither system uses optical sensors to directly detect and home in on the reflected laser beam, in the manner of the "beam-riding" system that most people think of when they hear the term "laser-guided".

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An ECM system - like Guardian - would generate electronic noise on a wide variety of frequencies... with specific exceptions made for those specific frequencies used by the carrying 'Mech's own sensor systems and communication channels (as well as those of its allies).
Furthermore, BattleTech's basic gameplay rules (having it affect Artemis, Beagle, Narc, and C3, but NOT affecting TAG) and its more advanced gameplay rules (in which it does not affect IR, MagScan, or Seismic sensors) would seem to imply that (in spite of certain fluff statements) Guardian (and the later Angel ECM) are purely radio-based jamming systems (that is, they would not incorporate, among other things, laser jammers or IRCM systems.)

So, TAG should be immune to the effects of Guardian not because of the "visual tracking" that it is NOT using, but because it does not operate using the radio-based systems that Guardian was designed to defeat.

[focuspark]

I think we need to accept that MW:O 'mechs are powered by fair dust. The effects of ECM and how TAG negates it are completely illogical, and are counter to every bit of physics I've ever learned.

Trying to reason our way, might actually not work.