30 replies to this topic

[valek879]

I have been playing this game for a week now and I really enjoy the game. However I have a quite a few issues with learning how to play this game.

I would like to start with the my thoughts on the controls.

To me, they feel clunky. I am not saying that they are poorly designed, or not fluid, just that when using a keyboard and mouse a throttle is not fun because there is no sense of a zero. Nothing changes when you have raised the throttle up, compared to standing still the keyboard still feels the same.


FPS's have trained me to expect a certain style of play. Gradual acceleration is not difficult to master and make the mech feel heavy, the part that I always seem to forget is that once I let off the "W" key my mech will go its merry way out into the open or the side of a building or up a mountain. This is extremely frustrating because it is insanely difficult to notice that you have hit something (more on that further down). Once you realize you hit something it is really difficult to right yourself. You cannot just turn the mech with your legs, but instead have to come to a full stop, turn your legs, then accelerate again.


Now my friend, a Mechwarrior veteran, and I have been talking about this. He understands the controls much better having grown up with the games, but can still finds them slightly clunky at times. Together we have brainstormed a few solutions that, to me, would fix some of the game play issues I am having due to these controls.


First, I would like to soft-lock the legs to the cockpit and remove the toggle on the throttle.

I want "W" to be 100% power forward, and "S" to be 100% power in reverse. When you are pressing none of the wasd keys, your mech has no throttle power period.

I would also like to remove the swivel toggle from the "A" and "D" keys and give them throttle control too so that they are both 100% power forward in a 90 degree direction from the way your mech is facing, essentially strafing and in a way that seems to make sense.

I love the build up of speed, when you are moving this much mass it would feel wrong to instantly go in any direction, but I also feel like the genre of FPS games (because that is pretty darn close to what MWO is) has spent many years perfecting controls and has a system that works quite well. I feel like tweaking this formula is a way to make you feel like you are driving this absolutely massive piece of machinery and yet keep the game accessible to the people who are new to the series.


I will keep point number two short. I would like to feel like I hit something when I run into a boulder.

When I am driving this huge mechanical wonder, and I decide I am going to walk through Macy's and find a nice sweater, I expect the building to put up some kind of resistance as I crash through the ceiling. Right now, I walk into the side of a building or mech and it takes time to realize it is there. All the collisions right now feel soft, very soft. I would like to see the camera jar to the side as the game lets me know I have come to a screeching halt because often times I can't see the building.


This brings me to my final point. It has been a long way getting here because I have many issues with the controls, but we are closing in on the end.

The field of view is too small for people with one monitor. As I am walking around I find myself crashing into every light pole and overpass and skyscraper because I cannot see any part of my peripherals.

If you have played any of the Battlefield series, or Borderlands, or god forbid Call of Duty, you realize that you can see much more of the peripheral than in MWO. This is because the camera lens is really more behind your head than where your eyes are. I really like the cockpit but I only see two solutions to this.

The first solution is the one I like the most, include a 3rd person view. I am led to believe that this was included in the original series, and I feel like the controls would be perfect as they are if I could see my whole mech move, much like how you watch the tank in World of Tanks. A 3rd person view would give you wonderful peripherals, as well as allow you to see your mech move through the environment and control it better.

Option number two would be to move the cockpit into a different spot, just for the player, not for everyone looking at the mech. Moving the cockpit back behind the axis of rotation for the legs and would give you a wider field of view, but this would break one of the things that make this game very unique in first person.

Everything stated here would be able to be tuned in the options menu, giving control to the user to play the game as they prefer.


TL;DNR:
I would like to adjust the controls to a more familiar FPS-esque feel. I would like it to "feel" like I hit something when I run into a building. Finally I would love to have 3rd person view, which would increase your peripheral and would solve the need for any change in the controls.


I know this is long, but I wanted to put my thoughts out there since I am new to the series and while I enjoy the game, I find it hard to play. I will do my best to respond to anyone's questions because I know my writing is not the most clear and to some people this will be very confusing.

Also I would love to skype with anyone who is very confused by this post, I would rather talk with you for a few hours than get flamed because I can't articulate my ideas very well. Feel free to PM me if you would like to talk.


~Val

Edited by valek879, 08 February 2013 - 01:31 AM.

[blinkin]

these seem to be very well thought out. i do not agree with all of them but most of them are good in my opinion.

i will warn you since you are admittedly new to the forums, you have touched on some of the lightning rod subjects within the community (like 3rd person view or strafing). be prepared for some likely flaming.

i definitely like the idea about harder more jarring collisions. if a 100 ton mech suddenly stops by running into something the pilot should feel it.

i have stated many times over in other post that we need to do a lot more to make it easier for new players to get comfortable with the game.

Edited by blinkin, 08 February 2013 - 01:48 AM.

[Taizan]

- Strafing has no place in this game.
- 3rd person camera is being looked into for a possible tutorial
- Collisions with mechs was in and has been temporarily removed
- Colisions with environment as well
- Enviromental damage from collisions or weapons is far away or will probably never happen


This is no CoD/BF3 style shooter, chances are high you will never feel completely comfortable with the controls or the way how you pilot your mech.

[DrnkJawa]

Completely agree with Taizan, just look around more...maps are big enough to manuver even in thermal

[Nonsense]

You'll get used to the controls if you stop thinking MWO is an FPS. Yes, the view is from the first person, and yes, you shoot things...but that doesn't make it an FPS.

It's more like a giant robot simulator. If you want better throttle control, use the "full stop" key (X by default I think? Not sure since I remap most controls). I suppose it would be nice to have a "max throttle forward/reverse" key as an option for some players, but meh, it's not really necessary.

As for the "strafing" comments, essentially you want the game to auto-twist your torso or point your legs in a diagonal direction? I'm not sure you really want what you're asking for here. If you actually learn to look at your minimap and get a real sense for which way your legs and torso are pointing without the game doing it for you, you'll be a MUCH better pilot once you get used to the controls.

Basically, what you're asking for (IMO) are crutches which would, in the long run, limit your ability as a pilot.

Just do what video game players used to do back in the day when there weren't forums to post on:
Handle it.

[Adridos]

As far as FoV is concerned, it is said to be changed to a slider in options.

For now, you'll have to change the custom config.

[Mechteric]

The X key is your friend, coming to a full stop is much easier with that single press of a button than trying to get to 0 by pressing the decelerate S key.

[Corvus Antaka]

I greatly miss the ability to map 0-100% in 10 or 25% throttle increments.

it sucks big time!!! give us some keybinds for this PGI!

[Dr Roshima]

everything you critize, is a reason why´s MWO so awesome...deal with it...

[valek879]

I have to get off to work, so i will make this short, but I wanted to reply to some of these posts.

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 08 February 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

I greatly miss the ability to map 0-100% in 10 or 25% throttle increments.

it sucks big time!!! give us some keybinds for this PGI!

I hear this is the way it used to be, which to me seems like a much better way control the throttle on a keyboard, but I prefer a full throttle. If and when I get comfortable enough to use a normal throttle setup, like the way it is setup now, then I don't think the change would be all that hard to make.

CapperDeluxe, on 08 February 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:

The X key is your friend, coming to a full stop is much easier with that single press of a button than trying to get to 0 by pressing the decelerate S key.

Also a very fair point, x is by far easier to reach, but it is also out of the way and therefore very easy to forget about. However, having a full stop button in game is already a great help, and I am glad it is included.

Adridos, on 08 February 2013 - 06:20 AM, said:

As far as FoV is concerned, it is said to be changed to a slider in options.

For now, you'll have to change the custom config.

My buddy i mentioned in the above post has been modding the config.I jsut told him to let me know when he found a comfortable FoV as making small changes, then reloading the game time and time again does not sound fun to me.

Nonsense, on 08 February 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

You'll get used to the controls if you stop thinking MWO is an FPS. Yes, the view is from the first person, and yes, you shoot things...but that doesn't make it an FPS.

It's more like a giant robot simulator. If you want better throttle control, use the "full stop" key (X by default I think? Not sure since I remap most controls). I suppose it would be nice to have a "max throttle forward/reverse" key as an option for some players, but meh, it's not really necessary.

As for the "strafing" comments, essentially you want the game to auto-twist your torso or point your legs in a diagonal direction? I'm not sure you really want what you're asking for here. If you actually learn to look at your minimap and get a real sense for which way your legs and torso are pointing without the game doing it for you, you'll be a MUCH better pilot once you get used to the controls.

Basically, what you're asking for (IMO) are crutches which would, in the long run, limit your ability as a pilot.

Just do what video game players used to do back in the day when there weren't forums to post on:
Handle it.

Almost exactly what I mean. I would like the game to auto twist your legs underneath you as well as have an auto forward thing going on. in such ways it is not really strafing, but more of a crutch. As it is now I stare at my minimap, but most of the time, and maybe this is just me, I get turned all around in the heat of battle. I end up holding down the "A" key and twist off into oblivion, or forget to get rid of my speed via "X" or end up going backwards because I have moved the slider way too far south.

Basically what I am trying to say is that automating some of these things and soft-locking the legs to the torso, would make the game more accessible for people like me who are not always huge on sims.

Also, as for the last comment. I don't complain after a game has been released, because at that point what has been done is done, but when we are still in beta and have a team like the Mechwarrior team (who is awesome btw, congrats on a great game guys) who listen to the community, I figure I would mention my concerns and thoughts on the controls. And for me, seeing if there is a way to automate some smaller control things to make it feel more FPS like would be helpful, even though I understand it is not an FPS.

Taizan, on 08 February 2013 - 02:59 AM, said:

- Strafing has no place in this game.
- 3rd person camera is being looked into for a possible tutorial
- Collisions with mechs was in and has been temporarily removed
- Colisions with environment as well
- Enviromental damage from collisions or weapons is far away or will probably never happen


This is no CoD/BF3 style shooter, chances are high you will never feel completely comfortable with the controls or the way how you pilot your mech.

I agree, no strafing. Sorry if it was unclear, but I think we fleshed the idea out a bit better in the reply directly above this one. A 50 ton vehicle supported on some thin, wobbily legs should not move sideways in a strafing motion.

I figured 3rd person was being looked into, and thanks for the info on collisions, I would bet it is because of the physics engine I keep hearing so much about.

blinkin, on 08 February 2013 - 01:47 AM, said:

these seem to be very well thought out. i do not agree with all of them but most of them are good in my opinion.

i will warn you since you are admittedly new to the forums, you have touched on some of the lightning rod subjects within the community (like 3rd person view or strafing). be prepared for some likely flaming.

i definitely like the idea about harder more jarring collisions. if a 100 ton mech suddenly stops by running into something the pilot should feel it.

i have stated many times over in other post that we need to do a lot more to make it easier for new players to get comfortable with the game.

I figured I touched on some topics that bring rage. I tried to flesh them out in such a way that it would incite less anger and more critical thought. I thought a few of the things I mentioned would be something that the MW team would be working on, but wanted to put them out there anyway because even if they are working on it, right now, it is a concern.

The reason for this post was mainly because I am new and have had an ongoing discussion about how I can't seem to figure out the controls. I think the reason for this is modern games of this fashion are all done in third-person, giving you a driving feel that is easier to understand, also in WoT the turret is soft-locked to your mouse, meaning that where ever you turn the base of the tank, the turret will eventually center on the xhairs again. Or if you look at Hawken they approached the game with the idea of making an FPS except with mechs, which less fun still, but I like the controls better.

I have to run, but I will be back to post again, when time permits, as it is now I am about to be late for work.

~Val

Edited by valek879, 08 February 2013 - 04:18 PM.

[focuspark]

Decent post - it'll bring rage, but what doesn't? This is after all the internetz.

Honestly, it's best to think of this game as a FTS (First Tank Shooter) and remove the idea of a "person" from it completely. Limited visibility, slightly clunky controls, and limited range of motion are intentional. The idea is to give you the feeling that you're piloting a massive walking tank bristling with weapons.

As for the WASD movement, the 100% forward/backward option would hurt you a lot more than you think. Better to learn how to use the W/S for setting your target speeds (btw, that's what it does - it sets your target speed, like moving a slider) than to have a crutch that will leave you forever handicapped.

The A/D controls for turning your mech are used because the mech turns very slow, compared to the turret rotation - er... torso twist. AND just like any massive vehicle, it's easier to turn when not moving or moving slowly. Most FPS allow you too keep precision control of your movements regardless of your speed but that doesn't make much sense when we're discussing a 100 ton walking tank. Just think about how hard it is to turn you car 90 degrees when it's doing 75KPH, then realize you're asking for the same thing in a machine with legs and not rubberized tires.

[Bhael Fire]

The control scheme in MWO is the most fluid control scheme in the franchise's history, in my opinion. It's a (near) perfect blend of the usability of the FPS genre, but with a distinct simulator vibe.

Change nothing.

...Except for maybe addinga mapable "full throttle" button (to compliment the "full stop" button).

[focuspark]

Bhael Fire, on 08 February 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

The control scheme in MWO is the most fluid control scheme in the franchise's history, in my opinion. It's a (near) perfect blend of the usability of the FPS genre, but with a distinct simulator vibe.

Change nothing.

...Except for maybe addinga mapable "full throttle" button (to compliment the "full stop" button).

For some reason I keep trying to use double-tap W for full speed and double-tap S for stop (reverse those if in reverse). I know it doesn't work that way, but my mind really wants it to.

[Z3R0115]

I'm the Friend the OP Speaks of, now, we spent about 2 - 3 good hours discussing:

My views on the game as Veteran to the series (I've been in the cockpit since I was 5 when mechwarrior 2 came out, and I'm a horribly addicted fan boy that also found a way into closed beta).

and

His views as someone new to the series. who is also an avid and quite good gamer.

Now I go as far as crunching alpha numbers and dps on mech builds (and I only share those with friends but realistically they aren't that hard to do.) to give you an idea of how far into the game mechanics I've tried studying. I've also played some battletech, read several books from the Mechwarrior Universe, and have played almost every single mechwarrior game on pc and xbox and 360 yhat I am aware of except (in all honestly embarassing moment that I will correct this weekend) the original mechwarrior game.


I want people to understand we actually sat down and debated the different aspects of gameplay, how they could be improved or optimized for people new to the game series.

Romeox, on 08 February 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

everything you critize, is a reason why´s MWO so awesome...deal with it...

Bhael Fire, on 08 February 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

The control scheme in MWO is the most fluid control scheme in the franchise's history, in my opinion. It's a (near) perfect blend of the usability of the FPS genre, but with a distinct simulator vibe.

Change nothing.

...Except for maybe addinga mapable "full throttle" button (to compliment the "full stop" button).

Now whileI normally agree that the controls are awesome AS IS...if the community can't see this I think the Dev's will.

THIS GAME HAS TO BE SEMI-FRIENDLY TO PEOPLE NEW TO THE SERIES IF YOU WANT TO EXPAND ITS PLAYER COMMUNITY.

Now I asked my friend to post here because this is honestly the kind of feedback needed, and valuable.
I also warned him of the flaming that will ensue, lol.



TL;DR

OP and I spent quite a bit of time and even now discuss it everytime we play, possible optimizations, and I make sure that they are feasable and still in cannon with what a pilot in the mechwarrior universe would feel like piloting.

I explained how it work to him in the real MW universe and how its been in the past so he's more informed than just a normal newb, and we used common sense and understand what works for some doesn't always work best for others.

Since we don't have neuro helmets I feel like we just need to add AN OPTION of different control schemes or a check mark in the options section that alows users to implement these controls if they wish, and the rest of us vets can keep doing it the "right way".

These controls are still complicated enough that not just any call of duty ***** can sit down and play, but it gives more options for serious pilots since we don't have good joystick support anyways. at least I can't play with a joystick in this one very well yet.

Edited by Z3R0115, 08 February 2013 - 02:10 PM.

[focuspark]

While I agree that CoD players might be a good thing to add to MW:O, I have my doubts. Better to get EVE or other MMO players interested; they're using to how MMO work and will be willing to spend cash on it. Last I checked CoD/MW wasn't an MMO.

That said, the control scheme while imperfect is the best MW control scheme I've seen so far. I personally think it's quite excellent.

[valek879]

focuspark, on 08 February 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

While I agree that CoD players might be a good thing to add to MW:O, I have my doubts. Better to get EVE or other MMO players interested; they're using to how MMO work and will be willing to spend cash on it. Last I checked CoD/MW wasn't an MMO.

That said, the control scheme while imperfect is the best MW control scheme I've seen so far. I personally think it's quite excellent.

I don't doubt that the control scheme it is the best it has ever been in the series. However it is still, correctly put, imperfect. It works very well for what it needs to get done, but I find that it lacks polish.

I just want to say this for the record in case some people have missed this point, but I find this game entirely entertaining and really great, there are no game braking issues for me. That said, I find myself longing to play other games where the controls feel better while playing this.

I agree that the CoD kids are not where we want our players to come from (although I do believe enticing another generation with MechWarrior will be a great thing in the end). The complexity of the game is reminiscent of EVE without the insane learning curve that goes along with that game, althought the learning curve is still rather high. I have played Guild Wars for 7 years now (including both 1 and 2) and almost every mmo, both free and otherwise up until about 2 years ago when i stopped caring. I feel lke an MMO would make a very good basis to describe my ideal controls, and how the character moves, the way it twists in order to go the direction you are telling it.

I admit with my control scheme, detailed above, I have no idea how I reverse would work. But trial and error.

In this FTS (First Tank Shooter), as someone else put it, I can understand the clunkiness of the controls at times, but that does not entice any new players when you have many other games, few in this genre, that have brilliant control schemes. I know most the people on here are vets, and that means the comunity is closed and has its ideas about things, but I would love to see the devs figure out how to appease you grizzled vets as well as people who have never seen, heard or come within 100 miles of this series.

Another thing I would like to add:
For me a big part of enjoying this series was getting my own mech that I could tweak and play with. I like that the time spent in game in the trial mechs wasn't very long, but I would like to possibly see that shortened a little more, or have one free mech. Right now the amount of money for items and mechs is very well balanced, and messing with that will only bring trouble. Perhaps something like a coupon would be a good way to work this out because I don't think a free mech is the way to do this either, it takes away fromt he fun of trying new trial mechs. Here is my thought, you are new to the game and start it up have to play a few rounds and build up 3 or 4 mil cbills, then you get your very first mech for the stellar price of 3 or 4 mil cbills. Honestly lowering the price of mediums, heavies and assaults would only help newbies get into something they like faster.

I took the time to work up the 7 mil (I think that is what is cost me) for my Catapult, and don't regret it, what i do regret is that I only have one mech i can customize, so when I get killed early in a game and leave, I get depressed every time I go back to the start screen and have to pick one of the trial mechs I have no control over.

Finally, I probably would have given up on this game after the first day of playing it (about 6 hours) had it not been for Z3R0115. While the beta is still very strong, and there are no game-breaking issues for me, the lack of certainty about the controls and the fact that it took me a good 10 hours to get my first mech has left me with a lackluster image of the game. Don't get me wrong I would recommend it to anyone, but I would explicitly warn them about the controls and several other things mentioned, because they do get you down and tarnish an otherwise great game.

~Val

[Nonsense]

The controls aren't "the best they've been in the series"...they're the same as they've always been in the series. That's part of what makes this game Mechwarrior and not a FPS like CoD/BF/Quake/Half-Life, etc.

If you get "all turned around in battle", you just need to get used to the game and keeping track of how your mech is moving. When I'm playing, I don't even think about it. I don't try to make Mechwarrior more like other games in my head. When I play MWO, I'm playing MWO and it is not like other games.

I'm glad you're enjoying the game, and the devs value peoples' opinions and feedback as you said, but there's almost 0% chance they're going to add the control features you're asking for. Get that in your head and then give it another week or so...FORCE yourself to get used to the controls. MAKE yourself learn to pay attention to the extra stuff this game has.

You don't need what you're asking for. Just start making use of the full stop key and get good at the controls as they are.

[Bhael Fire]

Nonsense, on 08 February 2013 - 08:27 PM, said:

The controls aren't "the best they've been in the series"...they're the same as they've always been in the series.

Huh? Have you played Mechwarrior 1, 2, 3, and 4? They didn't use WASD for navigation; they used the arrows, number pad keys and 1-0 for throttle speed. It was very awkward to use and required a great deal of patience.

MWO brings the ease of use from the FPS genre (i.e. intuitive WASD navigation) and mixes it with the simulation style of previous versions of mechwarrior.

As far as I'm concerned, it is indeed the best control scheme the franchise has ever seen.

Edited by Bhael Fire, 08 February 2013 - 09:17 PM.

[Corvus Antaka]

His control point remains valid. keyboard mappings for throttle values is completely reasonable. PGI has given us FPS values instead but with MW system. it remains awkward, and unreasonable to not give us throttle % values as keyboard mappings.

[Bhael Fire]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 09 February 2013 - 03:41 AM, said:

His control point remains valid.

That sounds like something the Combine might say.