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The Real Way To Stop Boats


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#81 Vlad Ward

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 06:07 PM

Here's the thing: Many players don't need to "learn the ropes" in every single Mech they own.

In fact, tens of thousands of players have had Beta access for more than 6 months. I, for one, do not need to "Learn how to maneuver" when I take out my 13th Assault Mech and happen to throw some SRMs on it.

Most players don't. Most people learned those things when they played stupid, useless Trial Mechs for 20-25 games.

#82 Mackman

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 06:09 PM

View Post1453 R, on 09 February 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:


They don't learn the breadth of skills or knowledge that other 'Mechs can teach their pilots because they either don't need those skills or knowledge with the 'Mechs they use, or their 'Mech is so fundamentally incapable of performing the task for which the skill is applicable (i.e. brawling or counter-brawl close defense work, strategic maneuvering, capping points in Conquest, etc.) that they are unable to progress their abilities in those skills because they can't do it.

Tell me how a six PPC Stalker or an eighty LRM Stalker - in the hands of an ordinary pugging pilot, which is the majority of the game's player base, not in the hands of an experienced hand working with a group who's expected to already know this stuff anyways and has dedicated escorts besides! - can teach that pilot how to defend herself from aggressors or how to maneuver around the battlefield safely, and I'll tip my hat to you.

Seriously. I'll go put my fuzzy-eared Minnesota hat on and tip it at the screen. Best I can do, it'll have to be sufficient.


One more thing: Why should all mechs teach their pilots all the skills that a good mechwarrior should learn? A great medium or dragon pilot may be absolutely trash in an assault: A great assault player may be garbage in a light (as I am). Are you seriously saying that someone who can pilot a heavy well is better than someone who can pilot an assault well? You're showing an astonishing narrowness when it comes to what "skill" means in the context of MW.

#83 Opus Krokus

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 06:21 PM

View PostVlad Ward, on 09 February 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:

I kind of hate it when people talk about how people with good Mechs must not have any skill at all. As if the only way to get any good at this game is to play an awful, awful Mech and put yourself at the most significant disadvantage you can think of. And then the only possible reason those extremely skilled Dragon and Centurion pilots ever lose a game is because the no-skill grognards on the other team were using super-cheap cheese builds and rolled their faces on their keyboards.

I've come to the tentative, though well supported, conclusion that people play awful Mechs because their ego couldn't handle the possibility of them using a good build and still losing.


Almost fell out of my chair from laughing so hard...

Edited by Opus Krokus, 09 February 2013 - 06:38 PM.


#84 Vassago Rain

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 06:24 PM

View PostVlad Ward, on 09 February 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:

I kind of hate it when people talk about how people with good Mechs must not have any skill at all. As if the only way to get any good at this game is to play an awful, awful Mech and put yourself at the most significant disadvantage you can think of. And then the only possible reason those extremely skilled Dragon and Centurion pilots ever lose a game is because the no-skill grognards on the other team were using super-cheap cheese builds and rolled their faces on their keyboards.

I've come to the tentative, though well supported, conclusion that people play awful Mechs because their ego couldn't handle the possibility of them using a good build and still losing.


11/10, would award congressional medal of butt destruction to.

#85 1453 R

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 06:35 PM

I'm not sure what you want here, Mack. You seem to want me to acknowledge that I'm a terrible player, but if I do that you accuse me of arrogance and false humility. You're arguing that all piloting styles and 'Mech configurations in the game are equally valid and skillful while telling me that whatever I'm doing - i.e. a diverse, balanced weapon loadout - is doing nothing but diluting the power of my BattleMech in a game where players should be able to control their ranges and engagements well enough to make boating the only logical way to play.

By the way: a difference in skill between two players results in one being Good, and the other being Suck. If I am on the receiving end of someone with superior skill taking me apart, that player is Good and I am Suck. Rather than focusing on the other guy being Good - which I can do junk-all about - I choose to focus on me being Suck, which I can do something about if I actively try to learn from my errors and improve upon my aim, my 'Mech handling skills, and my battlefield awareness. This approach is one I've used in many games, and has the advantage of being a more positive way to play the game - rather than raging about how much better everyone else is than I am, I focus on trying to get better myself and why I'm not that good. Ironically enough given your accusations, it also tends to keep me from being cocky - I don't believe in "lucky shots" on the other guy's part - if he got me, he got me, there's a reason he got me, and I need to find it and not do it again. Doesn't matter how skilled or not he is - all that matters in the end is how skilled or not I am, because that's the only thing I can do anything about.

Is that sufficient explanation for you, or do I just need to give up and acknowledge that everyone I fight is better than I am, deserves every ounce of the damage they do to me, and that there's no possible way I could ever hope to match up?

Anyways. I've presented my argument in regards to excessive boating of weapons and how it can negatively impact someone's play experience, beyond the usual "********!" moments where you're cored out of a completely undamaged 'Mech in one shot. That happens, and will continue to happen regardless.

Your counter-argument seems to be that I'm a bad player and a worse human being. I'm...not sure how that applies?

Not that it matters, because Vlad has decided that I play Dragons because my delicate ego can't handle the thought of not having a convenient excuse to hide behind when I lose. Clearly Vlad knows best and I need to get over myself, sell every 'Mech I own including my Flame, go buy a Stalker and put six PPCs on it because only whiny, emotionally dependent baby-men play things other than PPC Stalkers, dual-cannon K2s, Splatters or DDC Atlases. Those are the weapons of Real Men.

Good to know, Vlad. Thanks for the tip man, I appreciate it. I'll get right on that. I'm sure you'll be overjoyed to see me taking up an assault slot in your team should we ever drop together.

#86 Mackman

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 06:51 PM

When you jump into a conversation by not only questioning but outright denying the skill of anyone who dares to pilot a mech configuration that you don't particularly like, you have no right to act the victim.

You argued that PPC Stalkers require no skill: I rebutted that. You argued that piloting a Dragon is what real MechWarriors do, while PPC Stalkers are l33t-speaking idiots, and I rebutted that too. And now, when argument has failed miserably, your only recourse is to pretend as though I am attacking you.

Nowhere have I said that your way of piloting a Dragon is wrong, while you have repeatedly said that my way of piloting a Stalker is wrong. Nowhere have I questioned your skill, but you have denied mine. According to you, your skills are essential: Mine are trivial.

Stop playing the martyr, bro: Or continue, for all I care. i'm out.

Edited by Mackman, 09 February 2013 - 06:52 PM.


#87 MischiefSC

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 06:52 PM

View PostVlad Ward, on 09 February 2013 - 06:07 PM, said:

Here's the thing: Many players don't need to "learn the ropes" in every single Mech they own.

In fact, tens of thousands of players have had Beta access for more than 6 months. I, for one, do not need to "Learn how to maneuver" when I take out my 13th Assault Mech and happen to throw some SRMs on it.

Most players don't. Most people learned those things when they played stupid, useless Trial Mechs for 20-25 games.


To be fair this is pretty true. It took me like 3 drops in my new Raven to learn how it's different from my Jenner before I started only sucking about as much as I sucked with the Jenner after a lot of practice, as opposed to how badly I sucked with the Jenner when I first started.

Getting cored quickly isn't a boating issue so much as it's a pinpoint accuracy issue. Focused fire can do this. I've popped the head off who knows how many Catapults with combined AC20 and 2xLPL fire with my Atlas, two different weapons that taste great together.

1453R, you're not a bad player. Sometimes you'll just get dropped in against some really skilled and ruthless folks. I've had a run of 22 straight losses before and it really, really sucked. Taught me not to play at peek time in a Jenner, at least with the D-DC Atlas I can ensure my team has 1 mech with ECM and even against teams with focused fire I can get a kill and a few hundred damage.

Boating isn't the issue though. The game still has some balance issues derived from moving TT mechanics to a FPS but only in part; not all of them translate perfectly. Especially where dice are involved. You can debate the logic of how the balancing was done but 'boating' is true to Battletech TT form. In fact hardpoints make it harder than it is in TT.

#88 1453 R

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 07:18 PM

Heh...first of all, never said that piloting Dragons was the only way to go. Matter of fact, I've both had plenty of opportunity to regret my initial Dragon purchase and happen to really like Stalkers. I'd never recommend a Dragon to a new pilot. If not for my certain knowledge that the fatter a robot gets the worse I am at using it (long years of Armored Core and a lot of Black Lanner-ing in MW4), I may well have held out for a 5M and relived the glory days of good ol' MW2:M. As it stands, though...well, you work with what you buy, and I bought Dragons. Silly me.

What I don't like are folks who claim that boats are superior to ordinary 'Mechs, that the stock configurations are garbage that make no sense, and that anyone who doesn't load up on as many instances of a single weapon type as they can are a detriment to their team because they're Not As Good at brawling/sniping/missile storming/whatevering as someone who devotes their entire being to that one role. I'm as willing as anyone else to make reasonable compromises with the BattleTech canon and TT rules for the sake of gameplay balance and fun factor, but damnitall this is a MechWarrior game and there's only so much stomping over decades of history you get to do.

Or not, as the case may apparently be.

Mischief, I appreciate the props, but yes. I am a bad player. I'm also, however, a bad player with a lot of MechWarrior history behind me and a firm sense of the way things should be. Perhaps I'm incorrect. Totally possible. But I'm not the arrogant, blathering ignoramus Mack thinks I am, nor the insecure wuss-a** Vlad accuses me of being. I'm just a guy who misses the days when you had to do more to win a fight in MechWarrior than push the alpha strike button twice per enemy 'Mech.

#89 Vassago Rain

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 07:23 PM

ITT: Tim Buckley is mad about robots.

View Post1453 R, on 09 February 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:


Tim Buckley post



The way things should be? No. The way you want things to be.

Which isn't how they are on the tabletop, or in any mechwarrior game ever.

#90 1453 R

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 07:32 PM

And to think, back before I ventured into the General section of this site, I thought it was actually pretty cool and constructive and surprisingly not-terrible by the standards of official forums.

Good to know the place keeps its jackoffs so tightly locked up, though. Also good to know that nobody gives a fat fart about anything but their ability to pugstomp all the noobs they can get in front of them with every PPC or SRM tube they can cram in under an actuator housing somewhere. Excellent, awesome. Can't wait for the new matchmaking.

#91 Vlad Ward

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 07:38 PM

The implication, of course, is that all the players who have been "relying" on "crutch" mechs like Splatapults will be smashed by stronger players in the higher ELO tiers, right?

You're just not listening.

#92 1453 R

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 07:46 PM

No, the implication was actually mostly that the chances of me dropping against any of you folks would be drastically lessened. I really don't care if the high-tier ELO matches will consist of combinations of nothing but DDC Atlases, PPC oversniper Stalkers, Splattercats and 3Ls on each side, because I won't be in those matches.

Seriously. Go nuts. Enjoy yourselves.

#93 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 03:18 AM

View PostCaelen Rivers, on 09 February 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:


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This made me laugh - four tons of ammo on ten AC/2s, let alone UAC/2s, would last about 15 seconds of continuous fire in MWO.

15 seconds means 31 shots with each AC/2, for a total of 310 shots and 620 damage. That's enough damage to kill at least 4 Atlai. That's more than your expected share. ;)

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 10 February 2013 - 03:26 AM.


#94 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 03:25 AM

View PostVlad Ward, on 09 February 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:

I kind of hate it when people talk about how people with good Mechs must not have any skill at all. As if the only way to get any good at this game is to play an awful, awful Mech and put yourself at the most significant disadvantage you can think of. And then the only possible reason those extremely skilled Dragon and Centurion pilots ever lose a game is because the no-skill grognards on the other team were using super-cheap cheese builds and rolled their faces on their keyboards.

I've come to the tentative, though well supported, conclusion that people play awful Mechs because their ego couldn't handle the possibility of them using a good build and still losing.

I tend to agree, with a caveat:

Some people play awful mech because they don't care if they win or lose, they just want to use "their own" build. But I don't think those are the ones that are neccessarily coming to the forums and complain about boats and what-not. If they do, t hey clearly care about winning, and should do 2 things:
- Figure out the good mech builds and use them.
- Figure out how the game could have more "good" mech builds so that there is more variety and argue accordingly in balance discussion threads.

#95 Vassago Rain

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 03:31 AM

View Post1453 R, on 09 February 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

No, the implication was actually mostly that the chances of me dropping against any of you folks would be drastically lessened. I really don't care if the high-tier ELO matches will consist of combinations of nothing but DDC Atlases, PPC oversniper Stalkers, Splattercats and 3Ls on each side, because I won't be in those matches.

Seriously. Go nuts. Enjoy yourselves.


I'm sure you'll have a blast in the ghetto parts of the pub.

#96 Praehotec8

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 04:17 AM

Here are my thoughts:

1.) Boats are part of MW and BT, and are fine as is. They have weaknesses and strengths. Don't cry because you got cored at 60m by a splat-cat, damage it enough to tip the scales in your favor before closing the gap with your "balanced" mech. One of my mechs is a 4X LRm-15 stalker LRM boat. When it works (which is actually fairly rare) it is so gratifying to watch mechs disintigrate under the rain of fire, but all it takes (the usual reality) is one ECM light isolating my mech even 200m away from my team, and I may as well just log out of the match when my radar reads "low signal" (I do have other weapons on it, but facing a circling light with 2 MPLAS/1 LLAS using a joystick is about the same as not having a weapon, but that's another issue).

2.) What exactly is the definition of a boat anyway? Is my 2X LRM-15, 4X SRM-6 A-1 cat a boat? It has four (!!!!) SRMs, more than most mechs can mount, but it's not a specialized build. What should I run in my A-1 then so that it's not a boat? (i.e. "boating" is an artificial and ill-defined concept) Maybe boating is like a certain adult industry?

3.) Vlad has the correct thought. Just because someone min-maxes doesn't invalidate their skill. The more I play, the more I feel the need to create builds effective at several ranges personally, and I've tried the dual AC-20 cat and the splatcat. I didn't do any better with them than the builds I create for myself, but some people are better at coping for the boating mechs' weaknesses.

4.) When I get rolled by a splatcat I get mad that I lost, but I don't automatically think their build is garbage and they are poor/average players who need a crutch. I just wish I had been able to win. It's not fair to assume that their play experience or learning is any less (or beter) than your own.

Bottom line: It's a game, use the mech/loadout you like, and don't worry about what JoeUser is running, except to figure out how to beat it.

Edited by Praehotec8, 10 February 2013 - 04:18 AM.


#97 Gaan Cathal

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 04:43 AM

View PostPraehotec8, on 10 February 2013 - 04:17 AM, said:

Here are my thoughts:
[snip]


Take your reasoned thought and logic out of this thread, sir! It's not welcome here.

#98 Mack1

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 04:48 AM

I love Boats, I love it that there are Mechs out there that are totally deadly in the right circumstances. Last night for example we had an enemy Splat Cat armed to the teeth with SRM6's and he was camping around the side of a building, I just happened to walk around the corner and BAM!!! he whacked me head on twice blowing me to bits.

We ran into him a few times last night and whenever he was spotted on the map the tension was high, we were tip toeing through the buildings and then wehn we blew him away it was a nice feeling. I love this kind of excitment in a game, I loved Streak cats, LRM boats, I like to know there are deadly Mechs out there that can annhilate you if you let your guard down.

I like a challenge.





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