73 replies to this topic

[Percimes]

And I thought this would be about having elves, dwarves and all piloting mech... I am disappointed.

Doesn't happen as much as it was when I began playing (mid december).

Scouting is rather risky and you can't really type your findings while being chased or fired upon. Unless you're using voip the info you can relay comes late, maybe too late. And people have also this aversion about spreading out, yeah it's safer but both team can miss each other.

[Budor]

The map sizes let you see enemies from one end to the other. Its your own fault if you are getting capped out.

Only exception is frozen with the tunnel. If the enemy is not behind the ridge wtf could they be than?!

[CDLord HHGD]

Xavier Wulf, on 10 February 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

Defending the base is very important and will win you the game. I've done it with people a quite a few times and it works wonders.




Actually, that KotH Alt. would result in the two teams charging at each other with no concern for the objective.
[ o=> <=o ]

I was thinking of having a natural barrier between the two. Who is gonna step around the corner first? Make it so jumping mechs can get up there and sip or spot.... Be interesting.. Or make bsse cap worth more than TDM.

Edited by cdlord, 10 February 2013 - 01:50 PM.

[Vahnn]

cdlord, on 10 February 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

I think you are a bit exaggerating though I have come to the conclusion that as long as people run Boom/SplatCats and other cheese build, I will asnwer in kind with cheese victory. And I lost count how many times the op4 did a base rush and then hackle us when we did as well.... Not like either side is innocent.

Now to provide some helpful feedback, here's some very basic ideas for alternative modes:

I really like the idea of the King of the Hill Alternate!

[COOL HANDS]

I think one solution would be to slow the count down on the cap when capping.That way both teams have a equal shot at defending there respective bases.

[Felbombling]

Instead of needing to be inside the square to stop the cap, they should allow weapon shots to reset or set back the progress. That could help off-set the quick caps a bit.

[Oni Ralas]

Caldari are superior - missiles FTW.

[operator0]

Peter von Danzig, on 10 February 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

Take the hate out of your post please. It's beta we are free to discuss things. We do agree that this game should be a smasher after all the years we waited for it.

And watch your testosterone. DMG doesn't susbtitute arguments. You wouldn't have a chance otherwise

Allow me to quote your original reply before I respond to this one.

Quote

yes you should escape your base when it's overrun because that's what you should do, leave the enemy standing on your base while you retreat.

Take the condescension out of your post and maybe, if I'm feeling generous, I'll tone mine down a bit.

As to your leet Stalker skilllzzz yo! If my teammates and I are standing on your base when you are halfway through upper city, it wont matter how good you are. You will have lost. LEARN TO DEFEND!

Also, you have absolutely no clue what my best game is. You don't know me. You don't know the people I play with. It's incredibly presumptuous and stupefyingly boisterous to assume that you could even match anyone on my team skill for skill.

You still haven't singled out any other statement. Out of the 20 statements I had in that post you only had a problem with one? Virtually nothing was challenged by you. I would consider that a very successful post.

Thorqemada, on 10 February 2013 - 12:40 PM, said:

I disagree with that - the City covers you from Snipers and LRM while the Dropship base is a target practice area for the enemy.

You can't find cover on the dropship side? Really? I mean, really?

You see, if it turns into a sniper war, my team will just slip a couple of fast movers around lower city and back cap you. If you've chosen to ignore lower city completely, like most dumb PUGs do, then you wont even know it until Betty tells you. You wont have that same option. Want to know why? Because we are defending our base. Just think about it for a second...or a couple of days...I don't know, maybe you need a week or two to contemplate that strategy. The bottom line is that your options are more limited than ours. If you had gone lower city, then, as I've stated before, your options, and by extension, chances, are better.

[Star Colonel Mustard Kerensky]

operator0, on 10 February 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

You can't find cover on the dropship side? Really? I mean, really?

You see, if it turns into a sniper war, my team will just slip a couple of fast movers around lower city and back cap you. If you've chosen to ignore lower city completely, like most dumb PUGs do, then you wont even know it until Betty tells you. You wont have that same option. Want to know why? Because we are defending our base. Just think about it for a second...or a couple of days...I don't know, maybe you need a week or two to contemplate that strategy. The bottom line is that your options are more limited than ours. If you had gone lower city, then, as I've stated before, your options, and by extension, chances, are better.

The dropship area is a killbox. And while you are "defending" the other team gains full map control and the ability to dictate the terms of the fight. Back capping only works if the other team's fast movers don't respond. Meanwhile you are "defending" by hiding behind a wall until someone gets smart and sends a brawler up to ruin your day. (if you're shooting at someone you aren't in cover)

[operator0]

Astroniomix, on 10 February 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

The dropship area is a killbox. And while you are "defending" the other team gains full map control and the ability to dictate the terms of the fight. Back capping only works if the other team's fast movers don't respond. Meanwhile you are "defending" by hiding behind a wall until someone gets smart and sends a brawler up to ruin your day. (if you're shooting at someone you aren't in cover)

I don't understand this idea that the dropship base is a killbox. There's plenty of cover at the dropship base. Explain to me why you can't find cover there. And, they dictate the terms of the fight? Perhaps they could dictate where to snipe from. OK, but we can see their "dictation" from the top of the dropship base. They may be able to dictate that much, but we have the initiative. We can see them coming and get into position much quicker than they can. Going upper city? No problem, we take 15 seconds to position ourselves behind good cover and then the next 90 seconds waiting for them to get there. Going lower city? No problem, we spend 15 seconds taking position behind good cover and then spend 60 seconds waiting for them. Perhaps we trade Gauss shots while they maneuver into upper or lower city. It makes no difference. We are not surprised and the "dictation" gives them no real advantage. So, now they send in their brawlers, over open terrain, against a dug in defender, who can see their maneuver as it happens, against a piece of terrain with limited access points . How exactly is it an advantage to fight a brawl in upper city rather than at the dropship base for my team and I? How is it an advantage for the other team to fight the brawl on our base?

And I don't know if you play in the RHOD league, but the good teams will defend that base. I would consider teams who participate in RHOD as sort of the professional players. Sort of like when I used to race. Every race car team knows that cross drilled rotors are for looks. The winning teams run fat vented rotors without holes or slots, because it works. Defending that base works.

[Peter von Danzig]

operator0, on 10 February 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

Allow me to quote your original reply before I respond to this one.

You know that you are quoting two different people, do you?

[PurpleNinja]

skullman86, on 10 February 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

Capwarrior- River city

Team1: Let's go left
Team1: Hmmm...they must be on the other side of the map

...meanwhile

Team2: I guess they are on the other side of the map. Maybe we should go after them? *1 player steps into the capture zone*
.
.
.
Team1: Holy **** they are capping...everybody get to their base NOW!
Team2: Everyone get on point before they outcap us!

And this is how a missed deathmatch turns into a cap race.

[Bilbo]

Nevermind. I was going to respond to this base cap thread, as I've done in the hundreds of others. I just can't bring myself to do it anymore.

[Daiichidoku]

river city LMAO

anyone, from either spawn, can see exactly what the enemy is up to within 10 seconds of spawning, merely by looking at opposing spawn through heat vision

i despise capping for capping's sake, but all too often capping on this closet of a map is the only way to ensure vistory (in pugmatches)...also, has the bonus effect of getting that map over with faster!

[MischiefSC]

I dislike the current map design for capping more and more the more I play it. Cap rushing is just... feeble. has nothing to do with battletech, it's a CoD mechanic shoehorned into the game.

It's not 'tactical' any more than any generic FPS is full of rich tactical play.

Battletech is about tactics. Base capping is the opposite of tactics. Resource collection is the opposite of tactics. You want resource control? Have who drops about it as part of CW. Ownership of particular locations provide particular benefits. Bonus XP to people who defend it/capture it enough times or whatever.

This stupid crap about base caps though isn't battletech. It's Xbox FPS mechanics thrown in. Have a single central location that at 10 minutes into the match can be held and capped to win in order to deal with people hiding to grief. Have positions on the map with a clear tactical advantage for people to take and win the fight from or the like for tactics. Battletech tactics are and have always been about area control and area denial and how to deploy your units to defeat the enemy.

Capping is crap. FPS kiddies CoD crap to add some sort of depth to otherwise simplistic shooter games. Hopefully bigger maps and 12v12 will let us move MWO back towards its roots.

[Percimes]

If you remove base cap completely expect having a lot more matches ending with a draw once the time is up. You'll spend a good part of that time looking for the last guy of the other team who juste found a nice quiet place to power down and take a nap once half his team has been destroyed.

Unless his own team reveals his position...

[Mercules]

MischiefSC, on 11 February 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

Capping is crap. FPS kiddies CoD crap to add some sort of depth to otherwise simplistic shooter games. Hopefully bigger maps and 12v12 will let us move MWO back towards its roots.

How much Battletech have you played? Most people I play with use objectives to give the battle meaning and encourage tactics.

You then go on to point out that "Battletech tactics are and have always been about area control and area denial and how to deploy your units to defeat the enemy." Hmmmmmmm..... So area control of protecting my base area is not tactical but area control of protecting my base area is tactical?

[ItsAPotato]

The issue is not that base capping is not a viable tactic. It's that it sucks and is boring (as I believe the OP mentioned). Sure, you can cap our base with your 1337 rushing skillz and super thought-out path...The point is that no one, even the capping team, benefits from this. At least in the past there were bonuses for capping, in which case I could understand...but right now, there is no incentive to cap unless you just want the W with no reward

Personally I've gotten to the point where if I detect a base rush, weather I get obliterated or lose or whatever, I'm going to run straight at the enemy and do as much damage as possible, because I get payed (and actually have, you know...fun) more for losing while doing damage than I do for winning an uncontested cap race.

Even the thought that "winning a cap race quickly and taking the meager reward so that you can get more matches in and thus earn more money in the long run" is wrong. Every match you play has several minutes of overhead time in which you are not making money (waiting for everyone to ready up, waiting for matchmaker, waiting for round to start, first 2 minutes of any round before you are able to engage/cap the enemy). But if you spent literaly 60 more seconds in the match that you are already in, you'd earn 4 times the $$.

Now don't get me wrong, capping when you think that your team has lost the edge in a fight is perfectly fine. Everyone makes $$. But rushing for an uncontested cap is moronic, even if the enemy team was "too dumb to guard their base", as one poster has stated.

[Bilbo]

Bilbo, on 11 February 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

Nevermind. I was going to respond to this base cap thread, as I've done in the hundreds of others. I just can't bring myself to do it anymore.

Crap, I just can't help myself.
Defend the base. The only way to lose to a cap rush is to not see it coming. Can't blame that on the cappers. Your team has to over-extend or completely ignore sections of the map in order to lose this way. Either way, it's not the fault of those that capped you. Blob to the middle is no more tactically brilliant than Blob to the left or right. If you lose because two teams passed in the night, you were out maneuvered. Learn from it and move on.

[MischiefSC]

Mercules, on 11 February 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

How much Battletech have you played? Most people I play with use objectives to give the battle meaning and encourage tactics.

You then go on to point out that "Battletech tactics are and have always been about area control and area denial and how to deploy your units to defeat the enemy." Hmmmmmmm..... So area control of protecting my base area is not tactical but area control of protecting my base area is tactical?

Control and denial of useful locations has a tactical value. Having it just arbitrarily win the match in 1 minute regardless of combat positioning is not. Denying the enemy a good vantage or a way to flank you is good. Having your lights run to stand on a point because that's just how you win is a big steaming stupid pile of crap.

Base capping is crap. FPS, CoD crap. It belittles the entire BT franchise. Why not just have CTF matches, were you get to the enemy base and your mech gets a big flag on a pole coming up its back but moves more slowly. If you take the flag back to your own base your team scores a victory point!

Taking a position for tactical advantage is good. Having some arbitrary win/lose mechanic is crap.

You want to win? Destroy the enemy or force them to surrender/abandon the field. If after 10 minutes of the match and there are less than 3 enemies remaining you can stand on a central point and win in 1 minute. that's great.

Base capping as a win/loss mechanic though is utter CoD, xbox style FPS crap. It's no different than capturing flags for points and has nothing to do with battletech.

Edited by MischiefSC, 11 February 2013 - 11:35 AM.