17 replies to this topic

[Praehotec8]

Many people seem to feel that SRMs and boating of them in particular needs adjustment. While I don't necessarily feel this way, I did have a thought for a reasonable adjustment to help with the shotgun, "face-humping" we see with SRM mechs.

Introduce a small minumum range for SRMs, say 50 meters (so the usable range would be somewhere like 50-270m). For flavor, this could be considered a safe, "arming distance", to avoid damage to the firing mech from close explosions. In game terms, this would allow time for missles to disperse, decreasing the chance of doing a 60 or 90-damage alpha to a core torso.

An alternative would be to has splashback damage to the firing mech if missles detonate within a certain distance from the firing mech.

Third, bring back collisions to encourage players not to run into other mechs or get too close.

What do you all think?

[Narcissistic Martyr]

SRMs are basically dumb rockets so a minimum range doesn't make sense. So I strongly disagree with your suggestion. I think simply restoring them to 2 damage/missile and giving them a slightly longer cool down would be sufficient to balance them.

Also, not engaging SRM boats at point blank range helps a lot with survivability so I don't tend to die to SRM boats unless I get surprised or distracted.

Edited by Narcissistic Martyr, 11 February 2013 - 01:48 PM.

[R4z0r]

I agree, collisions and splash damage for certain weapons ie: missles i think would deter face humping, but then again some people might be in to that kinda stuff

[Praehotec8]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 11 February 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

SRMs are basically dumb rockets so a minimum range doesn't make sense. So I strongly disagree with your suggestion. I think simply restoring them to 2 damage/missile and giving them a slightly longer cool down would be sufficient to balance them.

Also, not engaging SRM boats at point blank range helps a lot with survivability so I don't tend to die to SRM boats unless I get surprised or distracted.

So do you disagree from a lore standpoint that it doesn't make sense? If so, I disagree. There are certainly explosives that don't arm until a specific time, etc. You could have a dumbfire rocket that doesn't arm until a certain time after launch. Why else do LRMs have a minimum range?

As I said, I don't truly feel that SRMs are that bad, and don't really feel they need adjusted....BUT...I think an adjustment will come due to community outcry. I happen to think their damage is fine when spread out a bit, and the cooldown is certainly long enough, particularly given that boaters need to manage their heat when firing repeated alphas.

[OneManWar]

The whole point of SRM's is to use them at short range. Adding a minimum range is just senseless and would make them completely useless.

[Praehotec8]

OneManWar, on 11 February 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

The whole point of SRM's is to use them at short range. Adding a minimum range is just senseless and would make them completely useless.

Short range doesn't necessarily mean point-blank. 50-270m is still short range. Or, as I also suggested, just provide damage to the firing mech within a certain range. The main problem with SRM boats seems to be the face-hugging alpha strike that cores through CT, not the absolute damage spread over several components. All you need is a drawback or restriction from colliding with the enemy mech before firing.

[One Medic Army]

Adding +1 heat to SRM6s, and +.5 heat to SRM4s would discourage boating pretty handily.
My Cent-9A runs 3 SRM6s, 2ML, std255 and has a heat efficiency of ~1.45, with 5tons of ammo and full armor.
I could definitely afford to absorb more heat, as could many mechs that use a smaller number of SRM4/6s.
For comparison, an SRM6 is 3 heat, and a Medium Laser is 4 heat. In TT they were both 3 heat and a SRM6 would only generally hit with 3-4missiles.

[thegimp73]

I don't run a splatapult, however i do run my 4sp alot. I personally prefer the suprise buttsecks method over face humpin.

[Kyone Akashi]

Ideally, anything done to address the issue of boating would not affect "moderate" use of a weapon. Tinkering with the heat would be one possible option. Another, perhaps to increase the spread - thus increasing overall hit probability whilst at the same time lowering the number of missile impacts?

Alternatively, a short delay between firings of each individual launcher. Strictly speaking in terms of realism, is it actually safe to fire so many missiles simultaneously, given the small distance between their tubes, and the fact that each missile seems to have a somewhat random trajectory?

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 11 February 2013 - 03:38 PM.

[Tempered]

This is not a bad idea at all. We know that a minimum range can be applied to weapons without creating new code. We know that missiles go BOOM and anything too close should take damage as well. Seems only logical that you would put some type of fail safe system in your missiles to keep them from detonating in your face.

I don't think it will stop boating, however.

[Marchant Consadine]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 11 February 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

SRMs are basically dumb rockets so a minimum range doesn't make sense. So I strongly disagree with your suggestion.

Most (if not all) modern dumb rockets have this feature IRL. I fail to see how this would not make sense. I'd say firing explosives that can detonate so they will kill the user make much less sense.

Edit: As far as the actual problem goes, I think this is more a problem of cats extreme torso twist that completely negates the disadvantage of not having proper arms. Stalkers are so slow and clumsy that there's no problem with them boating anything. They're working as intended IMO. Not sure if this really is a big problem with cats either since the missile silos are huge and can be shot off relatively easily by any other heavy mech.

Edited by Marchant Consadine, 11 February 2013 - 04:05 PM.

[Deamhan]

As far as missiles go, anything within 1km is considered "short range". I once proposed that the min range be 90m, same as the ppc but to bump up the max range a bit to keep the window from being too narrow.

The weapon itself isn't all that bad. The biggest problem is boating them and the alpha that it brings. Not just the alpha but the ability to deliver that high alpha to a single body part.

Increase the tonnage by 1

Extra heat should be generated for firing multiple weapons at the same time. With a small increase for 2 at once, up to a large increase for 4 at once.

Increase the rate at which the missiles reach maximum spread.

This would make boating a bit more difficult with the one extra ton per weapon, it would making spamming your alpha over and over more of a heat management nightmare, and the damage from higher missile salvos will be more about smaller amounts of damage to multiple body parts instead of lots of damage to one body part.

After all, if SSRM 2's are being considered op w/ ECM or boated on an A1, what's it gonna be like with SSRM 4s or 6s?
Something they should maybe consider is that SSRMs are fired 2 missiles at a time regardless of the size of the launcher. The first pair seek out the CT, and the two pair that follow then pick a random body part to seek out. It could be as diverse as one pair going for an arm and the other pair going for the leg or it could be as concentrated as all 6 going for the CT. Or the second and third pair could end up selecting the head to try and hit. It goes to chance.

[InsaneHoshi]

Marchant Consadine, on 11 February 2013 - 03:57 PM, said:

Most (if not all) modern dumb rockets have this feature IRL. I fail to see how this would not make sense. I'd say firing explosives that can detonate so they will kill the user make much less sense.

Last time i checked an RPG doesnt have and arming time. And it does make sense, when someone designs a rocket launcher, do they really need to assume the users of said launchers are so stupid to blow themselves up with it. Futhermore you can say " I'd say firing explosives/shooting guns/ swinging a sword so they will kill the user make much less sense," we dont really need rifles to have a min range do wo?

[Tempered]

InsaneHoshi, on 11 February 2013 - 04:12 PM, said:

Last time i checked an RPG doesnt have and arming time. And it does make sense, when someone designs a rocket launcher, do they really need to assume the users of said launchers are so stupid to blow themselves up with it. Futhermore you can say " I'd say firing explosives/shooting guns/ swinging a sword so they will kill the user make much less sense," we dont really need rifles to have a min range do wo?

You are wrong. An rpg is armed by spinning through the air a certain number of revolutions.

[Kyone Akashi]

Deamhan, on 11 February 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

Increase the tonnage by 1

This would also penalize those pilots who only use one or two of these launchers, though. They would have to pull the 1-2 tons from other systems just because of a nerf triggered by "some other pilots overdoing it".

Deamhan, on 11 February 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

After all, if SSRM 2's are being considered op w/ ECM or boated on an A1, what's it gonna be like with SSRM 4s or 6s?

SSRM2 are, I think, mostly considered OP because of how ECM affects missile lock and how this effectively "monopolizes" SSRM usage amongst ECM-capable 'Mechs.

I admit I have no idea how we could balance SSRM4 or SSRM6 yet ... that said, perhaps we should fix (read: limit) SSRM turn radius first and see how that affects their performance? Or maybe we could think about implementing greater penalties for excessive reliance on missile weapons in close combat? Once more resorting to realism, a Catapult pilot should rush to close his missile bay doors as soon as something starts to hurl lasers at the "ears" ... out of fear that enemy weapons fire will ignite the exposed warhead payload and detonate half his 'Mech.

Drastic proposal: When a Catapult's missile launcher takes a front hit, armor protection is only applied if the missile doors were closed. And it takes a full second to open/close them, during which the launcher will be inoperable.
Would make missile door management a bit more sophisticated, without actually touching upon a Cat's efficiency as LRM artillery.

Tempered, on 11 February 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:

An rpg is armed by spinning through the air a certain number of revolutions.

Granted, this probably does depend on the specific model.

Explosive splash damage radius of a short range missile against the reinforced hull of a BattleMech in the game is a mere 3.5 meters - not really something worth to consider as a safety distance, I think.

[Deamhan]

InsaneHoshi, on 11 February 2013 - 04:12 PM, said:

Last time i checked an RPG doesnt have and arming time. And it does make sense, when someone designs a rocket launcher, do they really need to assume the users of said launchers are so stupid to blow themselves up with it. Futhermore you can say " I'd say firing explosives/shooting guns/ swinging a sword so they will kill the user make much less sense," we dont really need rifles to have a min range do wo?

True story....

In my former trade I was out on the weapon range. A certain infantry group was using up their Tow missiles. They had two TUA and one tripod launcher. They would take the missiles over four at a time to be fired alternating between the three platforms. Sure enough, after some time, the first missile that was launched out of the TUA, after the tripod, was faulty. After the initial kick out motor, the missile blew up no more than 20m out in front of the TUA just as the main motor kicked in.

There are certain safety features that these things have. In the example above, it is a separate launching motor and delivery motor. After all, you couldn't tripod launch the TOW with just the delivery motor. The user would get burnt up. They also have an arming safety which often demands the round to experience a minimum amount of G-force before they will arm.

The RPG-7, if using unmodified rockets, will arm in about 5m (it also has a standard 4.5 sec fuse so it self detonates after that time). The Carl G (very fun to fire) has a minimum of 15m. In the case of the RPG-7, that is an example of G-force arming. I can't remember what the Carl G has. I know the 40mm grenades uses their spin to arm.

But if the problem is that the SRM delivers too much damage to one body part when it was suppose to deliver it to multiple, then put in a minimum arm distance to let the missiles spread out before they can do their damage.

Edit:

I like the idea of needing to manually open the doors to use the launchers. The door is the armor so behind them is internals. This should mean that hitting front of the launcher with the doors open should be an instant hit on the internals, by passing the armor. Right now I think the difference is 20% to the armor? So either way you are hitting armor first.

Edited by Deamhan, 11 February 2013 - 04:47 PM.

[Star Colonel Mustard Kerensky]

Deamhan, on 11 February 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

Increase the tonnage by 1

Stop trying to balance by tonnage. PGI has already said they can't (and wont) do it because it jacks up stock builds. (87 ton stalkers anyone?) Damage, heat, range, cooldown, and spread are pretty much all they can balance with without having to rebuild a pile of stock mechs.

[Deamhan]

Cause changing the load out is too much work and eats up so much time. Takes me a good 10min to put together something I never played before with better heat efficiency (without any upgrades or mxp invested) than the stock junk they use in this.