16 replies to this topic

[Voidsinger]

As you know, there have been a great deal of complaints about how ECM is overpowered. These complaints stem mostly from the fact PGI has chosen to extend the functions of ECM well beyond the tabletop functions, and limited availability to a few chosen mechs whose players have abused it (Ravens, yes I'm looking at you).

Let's look at another branch of Information Warfare. Sensors. It seems the only sensor that seems to matter in MWO is radar. However, other sensors (Thermal, Radiation, Seismic, etc) do exist, and should be utilised in targeting.

What I propose is that the Beagle Active Probe form a kind of 'backup' sensor function when faced with ECM. This would allow a mech to utilise all weapons systems not dependent on communications, yet still give the Guardian ECM suite its entire tabletop functionality.

Therefore, if you have BAP and encounter GECM, the following would work:

- Sensors in normal, unboosted mode
- Streaks
- Normal LRMs

What would not work:

- Module Sensor enhancements
- Beagle Active Probe enhanced radar and detect shutdown mech functions.
- NARC
- TAG links to mechs within the ECM bubble
- C3 type data links within the ECM bubble.
- Artemis IV

This restores Guardian ECM to its full Battletech power, while not being overpowering and so easily abused by GECM equipped mechs.

It also acknowledges the fact BAP is tied into the Targeting and Tracking Systems, and is 1.5 tons of sensors and sensory processing systems. It acknowledges passive sensors, and the fact targetting information can be fed into missiles directly.

While this still leaves ECM greatly more powerful than tabletop, it does provide a solution available to all to counter the abuses currently in game, and the feelings of powerlessness when encountering ECM in certain situations.

It also encourages lighter mechs to take what is an essential Scouting system.


Thoughts please?

Edited by Voidsinger, 11 February 2013 - 05:50 PM.

[GREYFOOL]

I dig this. It looks like it allows the option to see who is around short distance wise without allowing targeting systems to lock on. This would also be nice for those who do not have missiles to get a chance to see what is around better, even if it is short distance. Help chase ECM enabled lights and mediums, and possibly not run face to face into an ECM enabled Atlas and get killed in a single Alpha shot. Could be beneficial to all the complaints about the ECM without giving up cover from missile boats. I run a CDA-3m sometimes and wouldn't mind if others could see me a little better with an upgrade that takes up space and tons, as long as it does not help them lock on. Helps paint a bigger picture for everyone that gets the BAP.

[Stormwolf]

Well, the current ECM is a blend of Guardian ECM, Angel ECM and null sig system.

We might aswell combine BAP with Nova CEWS and C3 Boosted master to try and balance this mess out more.

[Dustein]

I like this idea in Theory.

However I also foresee 90% of 'Mechs able to do so equipping BAP. By my understanding of Russ's ealy interviews, PGI do NOT want to create an arms race or a cookie cutter system. (yeah yeah I know ECM currently breaks this model, Dev statements say they have more balance fixes in teh works as new equipment is introduced.. So I will wait and see what they have in mind before I fetch my Pitchfork+Touch Axeman).

@ Stormwolf: is the Nova CEWS what the InnerSphere nicknamed the Watchdog? If so we will not see it until 3059. But that aside I agree it might be a valid counter to the ECM, except that is in itself is limited to certain variants and has an ECM built in, but it is JUST a STANDARD Clan ECM and not the Blended Guardian/Angel/Null Sig ECM with boost we have now :-s

Sarna Wiki said:

The Watchdog system performs two functions: those of standard Clan ECM suites and active probes. Apply all rules for both pieces of equipment when the watchdog is active.
The Watchdog weighs 1.5 ton and occupies 2 critical slot.
Year: 3059+
Cost: 600,000 C-Bills
BV2: 68

[GREYFOOL]

Does the BAP currently do anything?

[blinkin]

GREYFOOL, on 22 February 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

Does the BAP currently do anything?

http://mwowiki.org/w...le_Active_Probe :

• 25% increased sensor range^[2]
  
• 25% decreased target level acquisition time^[2]
  
• Allows targeting of unpowered 'Mechs within 120m^[2]
  
• Currently no benefit in detecting ECM carrying 'Mechs or mechs with in the bubble of ECM, detections range is still 200m.
  
• Currently Beagle Active Probe is completely useless while in the 'Low Signal Strength' range of an ECM carrying 'Mech losing all of Beagle Active Probe benefits.

[Stormwolf]

Dustein, on 22 February 2013 - 05:57 AM, said:

@ Stormwolf: is the Nova CEWS what the InnerSphere nicknamed the Watchdog? If so we will not see it until 3059. But that aside I agree it might be a valid counter to the ECM, except that is in itself is limited to certain variants and has an ECM built in, but it is JUST a STANDARD Clan ECM and not the Blended Guardian/Angel/Null Sig ECM with boost we have now :-s

Release dates don't matter since we already have a C3i system built into our mechs without taking up any weight or crits

Seriously, who was behind the current design choices? And what were they thinking?

Edited by Stormwolf, 22 February 2013 - 01:56 PM.

[Voidsinger]

What I was saying was that if equipped with BAP, when a mech ecounters ECM it loses the BAP enhanced functions.

It would act as a mech with normal sensors, able to target normally.

What it would lose within the ECM radius, is the ability to communicate any information. Artemis would still fail, as would NARC. C3 networks could not share data.

That is, the benefit would be a BAP equipped mech could scout against ECM equipped mechs, just being less efficient than pre-ECM BAP.

As for an arms race, they already have one. ECM. The effects are that you either go ECM (usually Raven for lights), or you move up the tonnage bracket. Until Alpine hit (and maybe until there are enough large maps), there was little disincentive to play assaults.


This whole thing ties into the fact that Guardian ECM ties into the Communications System. Therefore, it jams broadcasting frequencies. Beagle Active Probe ties into the Targeting and Tracking system, which is responsible for identification and targeting. Because Guardian got a boost, I see no reason not to boost BAP's passive sensors and analysis capability, especially since it is tied to the targeting arc and not 360 degrees as it should be.

[Voidsinger]

Stormwolf, on 22 February 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

Release dates don't matter since we already have a C3i system built into our mechs without taking up any weight or crits

Seriously, who was behind the current design choices? And what were they thinking?

Oops, missed this one.

There have been interviews (I forget the reference), where target data sharing may not be permanent. They still need to introduce C3, and are likely to make the ability to share data a module.

Remember, modules are the endgame.

[blinkin]

Voidsinger, on 22 February 2013 - 02:31 PM, said:

Oops, missed this one.

There have been interviews (I forget the reference), where target data sharing may not be permanent. They still need to introduce C3, and are likely to make the ability to share data a module.

Remember, modules are the endgame.

if that is true then it will drastically change the nature of the game. to the point that i am not even willing to make a prediction on whether it will be good or bad overall.

[TekGnosis]

• Currently no benefit in detecting ECM carrying 'Mechs or mechs with in the bubble of ECM, detections range is still 200m.
  
• Currently Beagle Active Probe is completely useless while in the 'Low Signal Strength' range of an ECM carrying 'Mech losing all of Beagle Active Probe benefits.

The word currently is telling here. To be honest, I fit one of these on my mech thinking it did what it did in tabletop: let me use streaks inside enemy ECM range. With nearly all the light mechs on the field using ECM these days, streaks just flat out don't work at all in 90% of time. This is silly, as they were already balanced to no longer hit the same location.

Just fix BAP to do what its supposed to do: allow lock if you are inside the range of one(1) ecm field. Lag shields notwithstanding, I put streak+BAP on my mech to help deal with very fast mechs that get 'under the guns' of my heavy, except most things under my guns have ECM and BAP doesn't do what it says on the tin...

[Urdnot Mau]

Well.. now that PPC can counter ecm, what's the problem about lock-on ? Let's see which mechs carry ecm: COM, SPD, RVN, CDA and AS7. Assaults are easy targets to PPC, but what about those light mechs ? They are so hard to hit. The best way to kill them are with Streaks. However, who's the crazy light pilot that runs any other light armored mech against COM and RVN ? If the COM-2D or RVN-3L is up against any other light mech (or CDA) they will win because of the streaks (and they ALWAYS use streaks). So.. if the purpose is to counter the lock-on, why help those mechs who need lock on for streaks ? The problem with ecm on light mechs is that it makes them even harder to kill because we can't use streaks, that's it. Ecm leaves this "breach" (180m to 250m) just so that ppl don't say ecm mechs are undetectable.
What if BAP would provide a near range lock on ? Maybe 90m would do it, maybe closer. Light ecm mechs are now acting as medium and heavy mechs by taking head-on other light, medium and even heavy mechs. People SHOULD be able to counter ecm somehow to avoid that from happening.

What i really meant to say here was: Light mechs without streaks clearly have a disadvantage against other streak ecm light mechs (JR are hardly worth piloting now) because an ecm SPD or CDA cannot counter the 3L or 2D streaks. This would all be different if only SPD, JR and CDA could carry ecm. Ppl would complain less.
BAP should allow lock-on on those ecm light mechs when near them.

[Corvus Antaka]

I like that ECM jams guidance systems inside the 180m bubble. I don't think it's a good idea for BAP to negate this, this is the very feature that ECM saved us from pure LRM boats and SSRM boats with.

if BAP just let us gain normal locks on mechs outside the 180m out to say 350-400meters, and 500 meters with adv sensor module, etc, I could see this working better.

[Voidsinger]

Yes. I see a great deal of the issue also being that ECM works in line of sight. This is where other sensors (passive, non-radar) should be used by the targeting computer. If PGI can institute a check for Artemis IV that it only applies bonuses when in line of sight, then surely they could do the same for ECM.

The problem with the counters to ECM is that TAG doesn't make sense at all, being a painting system attached to a communications device (it does not have a targeting computer), and all it does is bounce a ranging laser off the target to yield a bearing and a range. PPCs make more sense, however, this means you need a 7 ton weapon to shut down a 1.5 ton device for 4 seconds. There is also a large limitation:

Mechs that cannot carry a PPC or TAG - Catapult A1, Centurion AH
Mechs that cannot carry a PPC - Spider K, Spider V, Centurion A, Centurion D, Catapult C4
Mechs that sacrifice 50% or more of Energy slots to carry TAG - Commando 1D,3A, Spider K*, Spider V^, Raven 2X, Cicada 3C*, Centurion A^, Centurion D^, Catapult C4^, Jagermechs.
* - has only 1 Energy Weapon Slot
^ - Reduces available energy weapons to a single slot (Medium pulse laser or less).

ECM did not save us from sSRMs or LRM boats. The LRM boats have TAG in many cases. With Streaks, the nature of the boat changed, so that instead of the Catapult A1 which could be dealt with at range, we have the Atlas DDC (assault), the Raven 3L (current problem child) and the Commando 2D (tough, but poppable).

In limiting the effective ability of other mechs to carry weapons (and this is the effect ECM has), the tactical implications become obscene. Light mech independent operations are limited due to high speed Ravens duets. Mediums cannot perform swing roles as they should and are limited to the main battle group (at low speed). A pair of Ravens on a map like Alpine Peaks where seperation is an operational necessity can shut down the other team.

PGI don't seem to want to budge on ECM effects. I am trying to provide a logical alternative that all mechs can carry, isn't free, provides some other bonus in non-ECM conditions, and doesn't take an Energy Weapons slot which were allocated before TAG came into being on many mechs.

[Strum Wealh]

Stormwolf, on 22 February 2013 - 04:36 AM, said:

Well, the current ECM is a blend of Guardian ECM, Angel ECM and null sig system.

Incorrect.

MWO's implementation of Guardian ECM does not incorporate any of the unique characteristics of either the canonical Null Signature System or the canonical Angel ECM Suite - that is, it cannot do anything that either the canonical NullSig or the canonical Angel can do that the canonical Guardian ECM Suite cannot.

My previous posts in another thread (see here and here) have already explained this, in substantial detail.

Continuing to equate them in that manner is a falsehood that should not be propagated.

Stormwolf, on 22 February 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

Release dates don't matter since we already have a C3i system built into our mechs without taking up any weight or crits

Incorrect, again.

From TechManual, pg. 39:
"BattleMechs are also not islands unto themselves. They can share sensor data to some extent, allowing greater sensory performance than a single ’Mech can achieve. The specialized equipment of a C3 system takes this to new heights with direct battlefield applications, but all BattleMechs can at least receive basic sensory data from a unit mate."

The ability to share basic sensor information is a capability that is canonically inherent to all 'Mechs.
C3 and its sister-systems allow more and better information to be shared between properly-equipped 'Mechs.

[Flapdrol]

Bap is fine, ecm is not, I'd rather have them fix the the issue (ecm being ridiculous) than have another bunch of half baked counters to it.

Ecm doesn't make the game unplayable, but it's def. not making it any better.

Edited by Flapdrol, 03 March 2013 - 12:36 PM.

[RLBell]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 03 March 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

I like that ECM jams guidance systems inside the 180m bubble. I don't think it's a good idea for BAP to negate this, this is the very feature that ECM saved us from pure LRM boats and SSRM boats with.

if BAP just let us gain normal locks on mechs outside the 180m out to say 350-400meters, and 500 meters with adv sensor module, etc, I could see this working better.

This is the problem. If LRM boating and streak boating killed lights dead, the answer is to fix streaks and LRM's, not add some other unbalanced feature to the game.