69 replies to this topic

[Sign]

Megachromulent, on 11 February 2013 - 07:00 PM, said:

If you actually read my post, my issue with the specific game design decisions that _force_ people into playing a certain style. My last point in the OP was that a VERY WIDE OPEN SLOPE that ANYONE CAN SEE AND GET TO, with absolutely NO COVER AT ALL, was removed from the map.

No one is forcing you not to play a long range direct fire mech. You just have to accept the risks that come with doing so.

Edited by Sign, 11 February 2013 - 07:21 PM.

[Mackman]

Sign, on 11 February 2013 - 07:20 PM, said:

No one is forcing you not to play a long range direct fire mech. You just have to accept the risks that come with doing so.

This is what it basically boils down to, and this is what he apparently means when he says he can't snipe.

[Vlad Ward]

As the significantly larger (6kmx6km) Mountain level is about to be released in a week.

Followed by the wide open, even larger Desert map.

/thread

[Soulscour]

One Medic Army, on 11 February 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:

My point was that high places aren't necessary for being a sniper.
Also why are you calling a Cataphract with 3 PPCs a brawler?

The cataphract 2x is at a significant disadvantage trying to snipe at a distance due to how low the arms hang. Without jumpjets you will find yourself hitting a lot of dirt when firing down at a distance. The 2x has missile slots for brawling. The streaks that you've put in there are completely harmless against the ecm heavy lights in the current metagame and certainly harmless against larger mechs. When it comes down to it, the 2x is just worse sniping than all the other sniping builds currently. I see a lot of builds since the patch throwing PPC on where they dont belong. Even if you get good scores, you're still better off running a optimal build than pretending to be a 3D which might be on the other team because of you. What you did is pretty much on par with putting PPC on a hunchback and calling it a sniper mech.

[Zero Neutral]

Megachromulent, on 11 February 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

I like sniping, especially against other snipers, it's a blast, a game of technique and strategy. (dodging between cover, determining where you target has moved before you get hit back, etc...)

Brawling is fine, but it would be nice to not have the game designed to intentionally benefit one style of playing.

So here's the evidence that PGI intentionally has altered or designed the game to force us to play as brawlers, and is actively discouraging long range game play.

• Zoom has been nerfed. CryEngine has been blamed but many reports that zoomx4 worked perfectly in the past with full screen zoom. (whether you like/dislike that style of zoom is irrelevant, 4x zoom is no longer as high res as it once was)
  
• Lack of access to high or secluded places on maps. (tried with best Spider with all 12 JJ, can't get anywhere different than I can with 1 JJ on any spider model)
  
• All high locations are completely open with no cover, or near cover. (accept for the tower hill on forest, but any mech can get there)
  
• Small Maps.
  
• Convergence is often borked by cover, if you are too close your weapons may be affected and longer hit your reticule.
  
• Depth of field blurs distant objects, that should be obviously clear to normal vision. (like we are all nearsighted)
  
• Film grain adds "texture" to close objects (which at times is interesting, but still blurry), but adds more blur to further objects. Thus making depth of field even worse.
  
• Heat vision will not display a mech as far as normal vision, so 2 out of 6 maps instantly nerf sniping that much more. (night vision is even worse)
  
• REMOVED access to high point on large slope on River City!!. This one takes the cake. They made that area out of bounds, and one of the only genuine sniper perches on any map. (and it was even wide open with no cover)

All of these things (and likely more) force players to close in, and have to join brawls. Then the only viable long range game is LRM lobbing... (which can get boring and tedius, especially since many times ECM completely disables this play style)

I think that all of your points are valid but based on a specific perception...

Try using a CTF-3D with jump jets, 2 ER PPC, and a Gauss Rifle. You can elevate your own position to snipe with a high damage alpha. By doing this it makes some of your points null.

TBH I find that heat vision reveals mech movement at a far higher range than standard vision, though at a lowered clarity.

[Soulscour]

I think its crazy that this thread even exist right now off all times. After the last patch PPC boating and sniper builds are at an all time high.

[Warrax the Chaos Warrior]

Keep in mind that a Battlemech is a device that allows a single soldier (mechwarrior) to take the place of an entire unit of conventional troops, from company size on up depending on the weight class (it's not a perfect analogy, but bear with me).

There's no such thing as a "sniper company" in any military that I'm aware of. Even individual snipers carry a pistol and a knife and have their spotter with them at all times just in case things get close. Translated to MW:O, that means that you should always expect and be prepared for the fight to get close.

Continuing the analogy, you can think of a brawler as being a standard rifle company. That is an actual thing, but even a standard rifle company is going to have some sort of long-ranged support weapons like machine guns (any 400-500 range weapon in MW:O) or mortars* (LRMs in the game).

So the problem with brawlers (rifle company) in this game is that they have no reason to take any secondary weapons. Since the encounter distances are so short anywhere but caustic, they gain nothing by being able to suppress (maybe by packing an LRM10 or one large laser along with short ranged stuff) before closing to brawl range.

So a sniper needs short ranged weapons, and that's as it should be. But a brawler does not benefit from long ranged weapons with the current map sizes. We'll just have to see how the dynamic changes when we get bigger maps.


(*that's what I did in the military, I was a mortar guy in a light cavalry unit. Not really important, just figured I'd mention it.)

[Mal]

Megachromulent, on 11 February 2013 - 07:00 PM, said:

Because I define a sniper as something that _can't_ brawl, where a cataphract simply can. The fact that you choose weapons that have a minimum range does not change your mech chassis.

So, by your definition then, only a LRM boat is a Sniper.. since everything else _can_ brawl, and the fact that it's equipped with only Long Range Weapons, so that it can snipe... doesn't matter?

Quote

This will get into semantics like so many other posts, my QUESTION IS:
Is "Pgi Against Different Playing Styles, Forcing Everyone To Play The Same?"

And this has been answered, repeatedly, in this thread, however, much like you seem to be choosing to ignore people saying that sniping is working, you seem to be ignoring the answer, because it's not the answer you want.

PGI is not forcing everyone to play the same.

[Cache]

Megachromulent, on 11 February 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

Zoom has been nerfed. CryEngine has been blamed but many reports that zoomx4 worked perfectly in the past with full screen zoom. (whether you like/dislike that style of zoom is irrelevant, 4x zoom is no longer as high res as it once was)

That's not how I remember it. I don't remember a 4x zoom prior to the module. When the module was implemented, it was very grainy. Judging by your wording, you weren't there. I assume you have proof? What they did do (I believe) was make thermal a bit more grainy.

Megachromulent, on 11 February 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

Lack of access to high or secluded places on maps. (tried with best Spider with all 12 JJ, can't get anywhere different than I can with 1 JJ on any spider model)

Wrong. A Spider can get on top of 'Alcatraz' in the River City maps. It also can get on top of the tunnel on the Frozen City maps.

I'm not even going to bother typing a response to the rest of the garbage. Your arguments remind me of a small child acting like they are trying to do something while in reality they are trying to fail so that they can complain about it in order to get someone else to do it for them.

[MischiefSC]

The game design does seem to be pushing people towards some very specific play styles. The ECM/missile balance is a good example of this.

I'm not a big fan of MWO sniping though. In TT, which I hate to admit I have trouble not trying to compare MWO to, there is not 'sniping'. Hit location is pretty much random. There is long range combat but the ability to purposefully headshot out an enemy from 800 km away just doesn't exist in TT to any measurable degree. That it exists as an option in MWO is more of a balancing problem than something that needs to be catered to.

[One Medic Army]

Soulscour, on 11 February 2013 - 07:32 PM, said:

The cataphract 2x is at a significant disadvantage trying to snipe at a distance due to how low the arms hang. Without jumpjets you will find yourself hitting a lot of dirt when firing down at a distance. The 2x has missile slots for brawling. The streaks that you've put in there are completely harmless against the ecm heavy lights in the current metagame and certainly harmless against larger mechs. When it comes down to it, the 2x is just worse sniping than all the other sniping builds currently. I see a lot of builds since the patch throwing PPC on where they dont belong. Even if you get good scores, you're still better off running a optimal build than pretending to be a 3D which might be on the other team because of you. What you did is pretty much on par with putting PPC on a hunchback and calling it a sniper mech.

If you want to lambaste my build, without knowing either tactics or weapons placement do it via PM.
Also you can get off your high horse when you're using a 3D jump-sniper FOTM build.

P.S. I've been running this build since about a week after Cataphracts came out, it's not due to the recent heat reduction of PPCs.

[Havyek]

What game have you been playing?

Every match I see 4-6 PPC Stalkers, PPC/Gauss Cataphracts, Gausscats, LRM boats, UAC5 Phracts, AC2 Phracts etc etc.

The odd brawl is what happens when the sniping stops, and is usually between whoever is left trying to get in close enough to fire, but stay far enough away that they're not effected by minimum range.

[Mackman]

MischiefSC, on 11 February 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

The game design does seem to be pushing people towards some very specific play styles. The ECM/missile balance is a good example of this.

I'm not a big fan of MWO sniping though. In TT, which I hate to admit I have trouble not trying to compare MWO to, there is not 'sniping'. Hit location is pretty much random. There is long range combat but the ability to purposefully headshot out an enemy from 800 km away just doesn't exist in TT to any measurable degree. That it exists as an option in MWO is more of a balancing problem than something that needs to be catered to.

Is there any reason why it shouldn't exist? Why is aiming at something far away with long range weapons a problem?

Also, if you're seeing a 800km headshot any more often than once ever 100 matches, then you've been playing with botters.

[Skadi]

Megachromulent, on 11 February 2013 - 06:37 PM, said:

Yes, but you are a piloting a brawler mech...

2 PPC's and a ER PPC is a brawler mech? dafuq planet you from
2 streaks makes brawler not.

Edited by Skadi, 11 February 2013 - 07:44 PM.

[Davers]

MischiefSC, on 11 February 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

The game design does seem to be pushing people towards some very specific play styles. The ECM/missile balance is a good example of this.

I'm not a big fan of MWO sniping though. In TT, which I hate to admit I have trouble not trying to compare MWO to, there is not 'sniping'. Hit location is pretty much random. There is long range combat but the ability to purposefully headshot out an enemy from 800 km away just doesn't exist in TT to any measurable degree. That it exists as an option in MWO is more of a balancing problem than something that needs to be catered to.

It helps if you think of Mechwarrior and Battletech as two distantly related animals.

Battletech is a game of attrition where you try to work out the best chance for you to hit while minimizing your opponent's chances. Luck plays a not insignificant factor.

Mechwarrior is a computer game where you try to get the biggest alpha strike and kill someone in one or two hits.

[MischiefSC]

Dont mistake alpha builds for snipers. They are exploiting taking advantage of PGIs decision to use pinpoint accuracy. This is the direction the game is going. If your mech isn't set up for alpha striking at the best range you can mange with the mech you're in then you're effectively playing at a disadvantage.

[Soulscour]

One Medic Army, on 11 February 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

If you want to lambaste my build, without knowing either tactics or weapons placement do it via PM.
Also you can get off your high horse when you're using a 3D jump-sniper FOTM build.

P.S. I've been running this build since about a week after Cataphracts came out, it's not due to the recent heat reduction of PPCs.

I wouldn't have torn up your build if I had not experienced it myself. After maxing out 3D I'm currently maxing the other cataphracts. I tried to use the 2x in the same way. It can not get half the shots the 3D can get. I felt like I was running around in a gimped build. Then I tried ER large lasers. Yeah, you can get a good 800 damage game but whenever paired off against good players using the better long range builds you just lose horribly. The brawling build for the 2X is just better. Not as good as splatcat or AC20cat brawlers but I feel like the odds are better.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

They're actually attempting to encourage loadouts that are varied. and not "super" focused....

I assure you what PGI wants to see players doing is using mixed loadouts at all ranges. Unfortenately this will never happen thanks to the "min maxing" mindset of competitive players.

[Asmudius Heng]

The game modes also encourage certain playstyles. In straight TDM you can use more of the map without worrying about haging to run back to a base ... you cam manouvre at range and snipe better at extreme ranges. The maps we have funnel people too much i agree and takign out some higher grounds is a bit annjoying since you can be hit back very easily from up high as you will skyine to every other long range weapon.

I used to love playing a lighter mech with soem extreme range weapons in MW4 and use it for harrassment. Hitting then running away and hitting from another engle, irsking a stroke back each tiem i moved form cover. It was great - I tried it here and the damge you do with a long range weapon on a light mech is pretty minimal - and then you cannot reposition very easily befroe the entire thing descends into a brawl anyway.

There are so many variables that encourage the most efficient playstyles which at the moment is mid range to short range combat - extreme range specialists only get a field day on Caustic.

[One Medic Army]

Soulscour, on 11 February 2013 - 07:47 PM, said:

I wouldn't have torn up your build if I had not experienced it myself. After maxing out 3D I'm currently maxing the other cataphracts. I tried to use the 2x in the same way. It can not get half the shots the 3D can get. I felt like I was running around in a gimped build. Then I tried ER large lasers. Yeah, you can get a good 800 damage game but whenever paired off against good players using the better long range builds you just lose horribly. The brawling build for the 2X is just better. Not as good as splatcat or AC20cat brawlers but I feel like the odds are better.

Try using the two torso hardpoints for PPCs, they're higher mounted than any other energy hardpoints outside the ones on Stalkers. Which puts them in a good position to hull down behind ridges while still firing PPCs.
The ER is for when I'm in the open (such as G line on River City) and there's no cover anyway, it doubles as close-defense weaponry. As to the Streaks, I do think about swapping them to SRM4s, however since cataphract arm motion has been nerfed I dislike the lack of targeting ability vs fast mechs. Also Streak2s are pretty much the most ammo/heat/crit efficient damage you can cram into a missile slot.