23 replies to this topic

[DracheM]

As a dedicated Commando pilot, I share the experience of most other Light pilots (and, to be honest, most other pilots regardless of weight class!) with struggling to counter the RVN-3L. A few months ago, my preferred variant of choice was the COM-2D, for the now-obvious reason that it can equip ECMs and 3 SSRM launchers.

I have preferred to use this 'Mech since the Closed Beta days because it was a very capable Light-hunter and, at the time, ECM was not yet implemented and with lag-shield at an all-time high, Jenners were the kings of the battlefield.

However, while the COM-2D's ECM allows it to counter the jamming of a Raven and enable its SSRMs to be fired, even with the third additional launcher compared to the Raven's two, it does not have the armor or other armament to win a stand-up fight against it. Because streaks don't allow for much change in gunnery depending on skill (certainly, some edge-cases can be invented where a skilled pilot will wait for a rear-facing shot against an opponent with exposed rear internals, but this is outside the norm for most Commando-vs.Raven match-ups), barring an enormous discrepancy in pilot skill, the Raven will easily destroy the lighter Commando.

This got me to thinking about another Commando build for the COM-3A that I used in Closed Beta, prior to the removal of knockdowns. The COM-3A is equipped with two laser hardpoints and two missile hardpoints, similar to the COM-1D. It differs from the 1D in two important aspects, however: first, both of the 1D's missile hardpoints are equipped in the center torso, while the 3A mounts one in the arm and one in the center torso; second, unlike every other Commando variant, both of the 3A's missile launchers are six-shooters, which allows for single-salvo fire of two SRM6s.

The purpose of the single-shot 2 SRM6 COM-3A build in Closed Beta was to punish enemy Lights who had made a mistake and suffered a knockdown. Unlike the virtually un-aimable SSRM variants, the 3A was able to maneuver to the rear of an opponent while they were stunned and getting up from a knockdown and destroy their rear armor (or another location, if it was critical). Because it launched its missiles in a single salvo, it was extremely deadly for this purpose. However, with the removal of knockdowns and the prevalance of the lag-shield, it rapidly demoted itself to the "just-for-fun" corner of my Mechbay.

...until recently, when the engineers (thanks, guys! I mean it!) have made significant improvements to the netcode. What I've found after bringing it back to the field for the last few weeks is that while the SSRM-equipped COM-2D is a losing proposition against a RVN-3L because of the latter's tonnage and armor superiority in an otherwise stalemate fight, the SRM6-equipped COM-3A gives me a chance to win against that Mech. Because the SRM6s now double the firepower of the COM-2D's 3 SSRM2s, in addition to allowing me to aim the missiles to capitalize on a weakened point, a battle against a RVN-3L becomes a matter of skill instead of a foregone conclusion. Against two Ravens, or in a lopsided matchup where I would otherwise be unable to overcome the ECM superiority, I am still able to bring the full compliment of my missile loadout to bear until I am destroyed.

In a one-on-one matchup, however, if I am able to actually land hits with its launchers, the COM-3A has the possibility of destroying the Raven before it can overcome the Commando's weaker armor. While it is certainly not a hard counter by any means, it does allow me to tip the balance closer to an even fight. In my experience, I've been able to win about 50% of these matchups. Because SSRMs don't allow for much impact with regard to skill, I unfortunately have no way of knowing if these were against similarly-skilled pilots. However, a coin toss of a battle is preferable to a foregone conclusion any day of the week for me, and I would like to think (even naively as it might be) that by adapting my loadout to address the threat of these current kings-of-the-battlefield, I am playing the game as intended and advancing the meta-strategy of counters to otherwise flavor-of-the-month mechs.

I expect that this thread will attract more than a few comments about Ravens, ECM, SSRMs, and balance, but what I'm really curious to hear about are other Commando pilots' experiences with dealing with Ravens. Am I in the minority with having a COM-2D vs. RVN-3L matchup be a foregone conclusion? Have any other pilots had success with switching to SRMs to capitalize on the Commando's advantage with regard to missile hardpoints?

[SI The Joker]

I don't use streaks on any of my mechs anymore... except the 3L. Everything has switched to SRMs - either 4 or 6.

If you can get behind the Raven and stay there, he's yours. Otherwise... you will lose to a Raven 3L almost every time due to the armor differences and the addition of 3 possible MLAS as well.

Edited by SI The Joker, 14 February 2013 - 08:59 AM.

[Chunkylad]

The Raven is just generally hard to damage. When you hit it with streaks you are splashing its whole body, not just the torsos as what happens in the commando. The Raven is so strong due to its thin profile, hard to hit without streaks, missiles just splash the whole body most of the time. As a spider pilot, the only issue I have with the Raven is its max speed on the 3L. It is way too powerful to run as fast as it does (with very little weight change not to mention). In a Raven, I have found very little disadvantage to running an XL. If my side torsos blow, I am usually almost cored anyway. The size engine it can have is impossible to counter in anything with less armor or without ECM. Even my Cicadas have a hard time facing them.

More on topic, With the Commando (2D specifically) you are trading your armor for an extra streak. The Commando is just a bit too light to go against a Raven on its own.

[AnnoyingCat]

Let's see... What?

[TungstenWall]

Sadly my main COM is a -1D

I also have the -2D, but now i Run a total of 10 SRMs on it. I find that while good Pilots in 3Ls will wipe the floor with me, Bad ones are killed rather easily with this build. They automatically assume I am using 3 Streaks, so they stand and shoot at me, then I unload a volley at point blank and they Die or get away in Red, only to be cut down in crossfire between bigger mechs. Sadly my build does leave me at 121KPH.

[DracheM]

SI The Joker, on 14 February 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

I don't use streaks on any of my mechs except the 3L anymore. Everything has switched to SRMs - either 4 or 6.

If you can get behind the Raven and stay there, he's yours. Otherwise... you will lose to a Raven 3L almost every time due to the armor differences and the addition of 3 possible MLAS as well.

Do you find that you'll lose to a Raven even when attacking him head-on while using SRMs vs. his Streaks? The MLAS are dangerous, but I have found that a lot of enemy Ravens will have TAG instead of a third MLAS. Although I wonder now if the matchups that I lose are only against Ravens mounting that third laser. I'll have to pay attention for that to see if that really makes the difference. I don't usually feel like lasers are doing the bulk of the damage on either side of the match-up, just because with Lights, it's difficult to hold the beam on-target (or on-location!) for the entire duration of the pulse.

[Megacromulent]

I like your post, but you missed on thing. All it takes is one hit from an LRM or any other mech, and your balance goes from 1-4 chance to win, to nothing. If you were full armor, and he was half, and messed up, you'd still lose half the time. I rarely ever fight one-on-one purely through an entire engagement, which means any non-ecm light will lose against the 3L.

It's sad, cause I really liked my commandos, but I ended up selling them, cause I hate dying from a single LRM blast while I duel with another mech...

[SI The Joker]

DracheM, on 14 February 2013 - 09:05 AM, said:

Do you find that you'll lose to a Raven even when attacking him head-on while using SRMs vs. his Streaks? The MLAS are dangerous, but I have found that a lot of enemy Ravens will have TAG instead of a third MLAS. Although I wonder now if the matchups that I lose are only against Ravens mounting that third laser. I'll have to pay attention for that to see if that really makes the difference. I don't usually feel like lasers are doing the bulk of the damage on either side of the match-up, just because with Lights, it's difficult to hold the beam on-target (or on-location!) for the entire duration of the pulse.

I've yet to try in a 3SRM Commando build. Right now I'm running a 3B with 3MLAS and an SRM6 (Mastering the 4th commando). I still won't intentionally fight a streak-Raven head on in that config. If I have to though... I always aim for the legs and try to use as much terrain to my advantage as possible. I admit - it's mostly a losing endeavor but if you can last a while and draw the Raven back to your team... your chances of survival are greater.

Edited by SI The Joker, 14 February 2013 - 09:17 AM.

[DracheM]

Megachromulent, on 14 February 2013 - 09:08 AM, said:

I like your post, but you missed on thing. All it takes is one hit from an LRM or any other mech, and your balance goes from 1-4 chance to win, to nothing. If you were full armor, and he was half, and messed up, you'd still lose half the time. I rarely ever fight one-on-one purely through an entire engagement, which means any non-ecm light will lose against the 3L.

It's sad, cause I really liked my commandos, but I ended up selling them, cause I hate dying from a single LRM blast while I duel with another mech...

You're absolutely right. Fights don't occur in a vacuum, and tactically speaking, whenever possible a "fair" fight should be avoided. And with the armor-disparity, the Commando is more severely punished than the Raven for having a third party lob some ordinance its way. However, I don't find that LRMs are typically a problem while I'm engaged with a Raven.

I try to be aware of potential incoming LRM fire and usually find that the current maps let me keep in range of some sort of cover. One thing that is nice vs. streak-equipped opponents is that it's worth moving to cover and standing still for a few seconds to avoid an incoming barrage, since a streak-equipped mech can't take advantage of an immobile target to line up their missiles for a better shot.

[DracheM]

SI The Joker, on 14 February 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

I've yet to try in a 3SRM Commando build. Right now I'm running a 3B with 3MLAS and an SRM6 (Mastering the 4th commando). I still won't intentionally fight a streak-Raven head on in that config. If I have to though... I always aim for the legs and try to use as much terrain to my advantage as possible. I admit - it's mostly a losing endeavor but if you can last a while and draw the Raven back to your team... your chances of survival are greater.

In my experience, lasers are much more difficult to use against Lights (and especially Ravens) because of the lack of burst damage compared to SRMs. The fights are just too full of jukes for me to get a good solid hit, even with the Commando's advantage of better tracking with arm-mounted lasers.

Regarding drawing the Raven back, my COM-3D with the dual SRM6s has most of its armor front-mounted so that it is able to (hopefully) stand up to the Raven long enough to leverage its greater firepower, so turning tail is usually a death sentence.

[Megacromulent]

DracheM, on 14 February 2013 - 09:17 AM, said:

You're absolutely right. Fights don't occur in a vacuum, and tactically speaking, whenever possible a "fair" fight should be avoided. And with the armor-disparity, the Commando is more severely punished than the Raven for having a third party lob some ordinance its way. However, I don't find that LRMs are typically a problem while I'm engaged with a Raven.

I try to be aware of potential incoming LRM fire and usually find that the current maps let me keep in range of some sort of cover. One thing that is nice vs. streak-equipped opponents is that it's worth moving to cover and standing still for a few seconds to avoid an incoming barrage, since a streak-equipped mech can't take advantage of an immobile target to line up their missiles for a better shot.

Not trying to argue for the sake of it, (but) I have an XL engine with what, 8 armor on my back? That is any mix of 2 salvos of SSRM fire, and one shot of lasers. Throw in any mix of other fire, or damage from a previous fight, and there's just no way to consider any strategy of fighting a 3L with anything less than another 3L (or larger mech with specific weapons)

I can take down a Staker, Awesome, most catapults, centurions (especially easy), hunchies (non-laser boats), and atlases, etc.. with a 3L... I eat spiders and commandos all day long, consistently. I can fight 3 commandos at a time with my 3L, and beat them all, easily. To say that a commando has any chance, other than luck or a really bad 3L pilot is just not realistic.

Again, not trying to argue, I really enjoyed reading your OP, as it almost inspired me to try my commandos again.

Edited by Megachromulent, 14 February 2013 - 09:27 AM.

[SI The Joker]

DracheM, on 14 February 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

In my experience, lasers are much more difficult to use against Lights (and especially Ravens) because of the lack of burst damage compared to SRMs. The fights are just too full of jukes for me to get a good solid hit, even with the Commando's advantage of better tracking with arm-mounted lasers.

Regarding drawing the Raven back, my COM-3D with the dual SRM6s has most of its armor front-mounted so that it is able to (hopefully) stand up to the Raven long enough to leverage its greater firepower, so turning tail is usually a death sentence.

I use the arm mounts extensively. People forget that you can blast them like that and will often twist back towards to get a shot on you if they see you moving away... which then leaves them open for 15 damage to CT.

I agree - turning your back will get you killed... I mean more of a "maneuver" yourself back to your group... use a combination of turning left and right with your armor facing to "walk" yourself back. The key to it is not to be over-extended in the first place, though.

[DracheM]

Megachromulent, on 14 February 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

Again, not trying to argue, I really enjoyed reading your OP, as it almost inspired me to try my commandos again.

No offense taken. I asked for other pilots' experiences to see if I was way-off-mark with mine. You're just telling it like it is.

I know that the 3L is a beast, I was just curious if other Commando pilots found that switching to SRMs tipped the odds, or if it was a losing proposition regardless of what they do.

[DracheM]

SI The Joker, on 14 February 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

The key to it is not to be over-extended in the first place, though.

True, but it is often the scout's dilemma and butting up against it so frequently gives me appreciation for the similar canon dilemma of equipping a scout so that it can outgun an opponent or speed so that it can outrun it.

[Taemien]

Interesting post. It got me thinking. With the longer profile that the raven has, it is susceptible to SRM hitting it if coming from the right angle. Catapults and Stalkers have a hard time hitting it because of where the missiles are coming from. But the Commando wouldn't have this issue. In addition I would say that the Raven could not do the same and swap out SSRMs for SRM6s to do the same back to the Commando simply because of how the Commando is shaped. It will have to rely more on the lasers than anything.

Not a hard counter as you said, but definitely a potent tool in the right hands. I like it.

DracheM, on 14 February 2013 - 09:05 AM, said:

Do you find that you'll lose to a Raven even when attacking him head-on while using SRMs vs. his Streaks? The MLAS are dangerous, but I have found that a lot of enemy Ravens will have TAG instead of a third MLAS. Although I wonder now if the matchups that I lose are only against Ravens mounting that third laser. I'll have to pay attention for that to see if that really makes the difference. I don't usually feel like lasers are doing the bulk of the damage on either side of the match-up, just because with Lights, it's difficult to hold the beam on-target (or on-location!) for the entire duration of the pulse.

My raven typically runs with the 3rd Medium Laser. Though I'm not sure if I'm the only one that does or not.

Edited by Taemien, 14 February 2013 - 09:42 AM.

[DracheM]

Taemien, on 14 February 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

In addition I would say that the Raven could not do the same and swap out SSRMs for SRM6s to do the same back to the Commando simply because of how the Commando is shaped. It will have to rely more on the lasers than anything.

Additionally, I thought that one of the RVN-3L's missile hardpoints was a Narc tube, which means a difficult-to-keep-on-target six-salvo shot for the second SRM6. Although, an SRM6+SSRM2 build might make for an interesting middle ground, but it means you'd start to mix ammo types, which can be annoying.

[Taemien]

DracheM, on 14 February 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

Additionally, I thought that one of the RVN-3L's missile hardpoints was a Narc tube, which means a difficult-to-keep-on-target six-salvo shot for the second SRM6. Although, an SRM6+SSRM2 build might make for an interesting middle ground, but it means you'd start to mix ammo types, which can be annoying.

I've actually used the narc tube with a SRM6 before. It was actually interesting. Actually could do devastating damage to heavies as each missile would impact the same spot rather than spreading out. Totally useless against light mechs however.

The ravens that are exceptionally deadly to other lights are the crazy ****'s that put 3 MPL on them. My buddy did that and was racking up some insane damage. Had to make sacrifices to get it to work however. Though it might be viable on them, now that the netcode is more or less fixed. But we're talking about a thinking-outside-the-box config here. You're not likely to see it.

[Megacromulent]

lol, I have to get off of this thread, I don't want to save up for my old commando and be dissapointed again. Maybe when AMS actually protects agains SSRMs properly, I will go back... *sigh* we can only hope.

[OneEyed Jack]

Am I alone in considering my 2D (3xSSRS, ML) a Raven-hunter? I may lose the occasional fight, but if I run into a solo Raven, I consistently kill them. Of course, if they get help from pretty much anything I'm probably dead before I can figure out a way to break contact, but I actually load him up on purpose when I get tired of Ravens, to get some back.

[DracheM]

OneEyed Jack, on 14 February 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

Am I alone in considering my 2D (3xSSRS, ML) a Raven-hunter? I may lose the occasional fight, but if I run into a solo Raven, I consistently kill them.

I don't know if you're alone, but it's certainly not the experience that I have. I built my 2D with the same weapon loadout to take down Jenners originally, but I don't have the same luck taking down Ravens. What other equipment are you using on your 2D? Any special tactics?