10 replies to this topic

[mogs01gt]

Im theorycrafting here if anything!

The object of my thread is establish an idea on how much value there is to medium Mechs on reducing damage taken. There are a few ways to reduce damage, but Im going to focus on reducing enemy LoS on your Med mech in this thread.

This thought process has led me to AC weapons vs LRMs. Im going to use Hawks as my mech for the discussion because they have diverse load out options. Since we already know that Medium mechs do not have the tonnage for high firepower, Hawk pilots have to determine if they want to focus on low burst high DPS builds vs more specialized builds using LRMs or ACs. High DPS builds are out of this discussion because they tend to take more damage since they require more time on target.

As an example, AC10 and LRM10 or 2 LRM 5's are comparable. They have obvious differences, tonnage, heat and pin point damage. So the question is, is it more efficient to take an AC over a LRMs knowing you have to expose your self to take the time to aim? To go along with that, pin point damage weapons do have one clear problem for Medium mechs, at certain ranges, AC's are easier to aim making the pilot want to stay around that range therefor having to move which exposes them to LoS of the enemy. That is obvious pilot specific due to personal preferences, ignoring modules of course because not everyone has Advanced zoom.

So the question remains, in my lower armor Medium, is it more efficient for me to use LRMs to stay behind cover while my brawlers are engaging or is it more efficient to possibly expose myself using my AC?

Just throwing these builds out there for DPS data.
LRMs
SHD-2D2
2AC5's
SHD-5M

Also, I would like to have people refrain from stating which weapon they like better or use better. We arent discussing which weapon people prefer.

Edited by mogs01gt, 02 May 2014 - 09:13 AM.

[LauLiao]

They are both viable build strategies, and I've had success with both. If you're specifically asking about SHDs, then you're going to want to go with an AC build. If you want an LRM medium, the Trebuchet and Kintaro are solid missile platforms, and the WVR and Griffin have good Missile variants. With the SHD, one of your primary advantages is that super-high mounted ballistic point, and you waste that by making a missile boat out of it.

[mogs01gt]

LauLiao, on 02 May 2014 - 09:18 AM, said:

They are both viable build strategies, and I've had success with both. If you're specifically asking about SHDs, then you're going to want to go with an AC build. If you want an LRM medium, the Trebuchet and Kintaro are solid missile platforms, and the WVR and Griffin have good Missile variants. With the SHD, one of your primary advantages is that super-high mounted ballistic point, and you waste that by making a missile boat out of it.

This has nothing to do with what Im talking about..... but I will address it.

The concern with their specialized AC hardpoint is time on target compared to the time it takes for the LRMs to lock on. The benefit being the closer you are to the target, the easier it is to aim with the AC(some may find it difficult). But getting closer to enemies has a hugely negative effect on medium mechs sustain. So the issue is exposing the Med mech for those few seconds and possibly still missing compared to LRMs locking on and at least having a few hit even if AMS is shooting down missiles.

Med mechs dont have the tonnage for mistakes like heavies or assaults do or the speed to change positions like Lights would.

Edited by mogs01gt, 02 May 2014 - 09:28 AM.

[LauLiao]

mogs01gt, on 02 May 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

This has nothing to do with what Im talking about..... but I will address it.

The concern with their specialized AC hardpoint is time on target compared to the time it takes for the LRMs to lock on. The benefit being the closer you are to the target, the easier it is to aim with the AC(some may find it difficult). But getting closer to enemies has a hugely negative effect on medium mechs sustain. So the issue is exposing the Med mech for those few seconds and possibly still missing compared to LRMs locking on and at least having a few hit even if AMS is shooting down missiles.

Med mechs dont have the tonnage for mistakes like heavies or assaults do or the speed to change positions like Lights would.

You don't seem to understand where I'm coming from here. With the high mounted AC hard point, I'm telling you you don't HAVE to expose your mech for very long to acquire a target and take a shot. You can "peek-a-boo" over hill, only exposing a tiny percentage of your mech to enemy fire. Also with the SHDs, with their speed and JJ capacity, using cover and moving into range of your big gun usually isn't a problem. LRMs are most useful when combined with Artemis and TAG, ESPECIALLY on a medium mech where you're only sporting 20-30 missiles at a time. Thus, in a medium missile boat, your "time on target" tends to actually be LONGER than with the AC if you're actually trying to maximize the effect of your weapon (Neither Artemis nor [your own] TAG will work without LOS) because you need to acquire a lock first, then stay exposed while your missiles are in flight in order to take advantage of Artemis.

[mogs01gt]

LauLiao, on 02 May 2014 - 11:43 AM, said:

You don't seem to understand where I'm coming from here. With the high mounted AC hard point, I'm telling you you don't HAVE to expose your mech for very long to acquire a target and take a shot. You can "peek-a-boo" over hill, only exposing a tiny percentage of your mech to enemy fire. Also with the SHDs, with their speed and JJ capacity, using cover and moving into range of your big gun usually isn't a problem. LRMs are most useful when combined with Artemis and TAG, ESPECIALLY on a medium mech where you're only sporting 20-30 missiles at a time. Thus, in a medium missile boat, your "time on target" tends to actually be LONGER than with the AC if you're actually trying to maximize the effect of your weapon (Neither Artemis nor [your own] TAG will work without LOS) because you need to acquire a lock first, then stay exposed while your missiles are in flight in order to take advantage of Artemis.

I was under assumption Artemis functions the entire time once you obtain LoS and maintain the lock.

Lets ignore Artemis. Lets change the theory to, "is it better to firing blindly at targets(lets say within 500) vs exposing the Mech for LoS pin-point damage for low armored Mechs?

Edited by mogs01gt, 02 May 2014 - 11:57 AM.

[Jon Gotham]

mogs01gt, on 02 May 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

Med mechs dont have the tonnage for mistakes like heavies or assaults do or the speed to change positions like Lights would.

Exactly this.
Even considering things like dps is not the best way to go about it. You have to assume you will take damage everytime you expose in a direct fight. With a medium you have to be shooting at a target that isn't looking at you, because even with a high dps buid you will take more damage than you can afford even after just one engagement with an enemy that isn't lobotomized.

If efficiency means damage without dying too early, and being match effective over more of the match time I'd suggest lrm.
I run an lrm 20+A, 3 streak and 2 medium laser Kintaro and it produces more damage per round, is active for longer and sets up kills for more alpha reliant team mates better. I also have to utilize less effort to do said damage-plus I can also pay more attention to my surroundings to watch for flanks, or type to call targets etc. So I'd say that was a more efficient use of "match time" than trying to get into position to use direct fire, expose you mech and put yourself at risk-making you make more defensive movements and reduce the amount of time you spend attacking.

[mogs01gt]

kamiko kross, on 02 May 2014 - 11:55 AM, said:

Exactly this.
Even considering things like dps is not the best way to go about it. You have to assume you will take damage everytime you expose in a direct fight. With a medium you have to be shooting at a target that isn't looking at you, because even with a high dps buid you will take more damage than you can afford even after just one engagement with an enemy that isn't lobotomized.

If efficiency means damage without dying too early, and being match effective over more of the match time I'd suggest lrm.
I run an lrm 20+A, 3 streak and 2 medium laser Kintaro and it produces more damage per round, is active for longer and sets up kills for more alpha reliant team mates better. I also have to utilize less effort to do said damage-plus I can also pay more attention to my surroundings to watch for flanks, or type to call targets etc. So I'd say that was a more efficient use of "match time" than trying to get into position to use direct fire, expose you mech and put yourself at risk-making you make more defensive movements and reduce the amount of time you spend attacking.

very good point! You are correct that AC weapons, even if high mounted, still need to have better positioning than LRMs.

[mogs01gt]

After play testing, its very hard to test the success rate since certain players of this community like to troll. I had one admit to trolling by calling me a *** missile user and saying "i never hit R"......Sadly being selfish in this game only gets you so far!

Edited by mogs01gt, 03 May 2014 - 06:18 AM.

[Darwins Dog]

mogs01gt, on 03 May 2014 - 06:17 AM, said:

After play testing, its very hard to test the success rate since certain players of this community like to troll. I had one admit to trolling by calling me a *** missile user and saying "i never hit R"......Sadly being selfish in this game only gets you so far!

That brings up a good practical point. LRMs depend on your teammates to a much greater extent than ACs do. I know it doesn't specifically address mitigating damage, but if you aren't dealing damage, then you're not helping the team much.

If you have helpful teammates, or are on VOIP, then LRMs are a great weapon system. If you have a team full of people that don't hit R because they don't like LRMs, then you are back to exposing yourself to hold locks.

[Jon Gotham]

Although, you can get your own locks-I tend to be only 400m or so MAX from front with mine. Huge derpssaults tend to ignore you in a medium if you are not directly shooting, you can acquire and shoot then fade away slightly behind cover-whilst still maintaining lock with care.
If you can handle your range right on a mech like my Kintaro you can converge your streaks and lrms nicely, all whilst not actually having to aim and keep moving.
I've found my activity rate spike up in am lrm medium. If you are sitting right at the back, waiting for others to get locks-you are doing it wrong

[mogs01gt]

JFC, this game is still in BETA. Just was in a match were none of my AC rounds registered!!!!!I I was watching the rounds hit the target and no registration.....At least that is one big up side of LRMs. They seem to register better.