Driving by and splatting atlases in the crotch.
1
(Suggestion) Fixing The Skillcat
Started by Ironbound, Feb 12 2013 10:14 PM
88 replies to this topic
#21
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Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:33 AM
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/SRM_Carrier All I want is this
Driving by and splatting atlases in the crotch.
Driving by and splatting atlases in the crotch.
#22
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Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:38 AM
Tickdoff Tank, on 13 February 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:
That depends on how you approach the Cat. If you come in from behind, or are more maneuverable than the Cat then you might be better off shooting for the legs, since the legs take damage from any direction. And if they have ammo in the legs an ammo explosion can really cripple them.
In my experience it still is better to shoot for the torso when you get behind them. CTR will seldom have more than 20 armor, L/RTR will have even less. One or two alphas and they're down. Side torsos pop the arms if they don't have an XL. The front CT is easy to hit from the sides as well as front. I just haven't found it better to leg them. Takes just as long as a CT core.
Edited by Cache, 13 February 2013 - 08:39 AM.
#23
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Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:40 AM
2 fat hits on Container...gone. Do the same on the other side BEFORE E Mech is closer then 260 m and just walk away in peace!
Or kill the Boater...its up to you^^
Or kill the Boater...its up to you^^
#24
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Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:41 AM
It doesn't need fixing by the game developers. It's a very narrow build, focussing exclusively on short range un guided missiles.
You as the clued up player are supposed to identify and counter such unbalanced mech load outs.
Against the splatter cat you
1.) identify it early on and communicate to your buddies that target A/B/C is a splatter cat. They will thus attempt to not close with it if possible
2.) you will engage with it from as far distance as possible
3.) when engaging it in closer combat make sure you bring team mates who focus fire on it with you and you also bob in and out of cover, so the splatter cat can not focus on one target alone. Also stay as far back as possible, for the further you distance yourself from it, the less focussed it damage becomes even if you are hit by a full alpha.
4.) if possible, aim for the missile containers ("ears") of the splatter cat. They're very vulnerable and just taking one out will half its alpha.
It's really not that hard to counter.
You as the clued up player are supposed to identify and counter such unbalanced mech load outs.
Against the splatter cat you
1.) identify it early on and communicate to your buddies that target A/B/C is a splatter cat. They will thus attempt to not close with it if possible
2.) you will engage with it from as far distance as possible
3.) when engaging it in closer combat make sure you bring team mates who focus fire on it with you and you also bob in and out of cover, so the splatter cat can not focus on one target alone. Also stay as far back as possible, for the further you distance yourself from it, the less focussed it damage becomes even if you are hit by a full alpha.
4.) if possible, aim for the missile containers ("ears") of the splatter cat. They're very vulnerable and just taking one out will half its alpha.
It's really not that hard to counter.
#25
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Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:41 AM
I kind of agree- if only from a reality standpoint.
If you open the doors you're effectively removing the armor from the front. (If you open the hatch on a tank so a person can get out.. it doesn't have magical armor protecting it from a grenade being dropped in.)
It would give a reason for LRM mechs to keep theirs closed (if only during transit) and it would discourage SRM cats from well.. running around with Insta-gib SRM barrages.. they'd at least have to use SOME skill in timing when fighting faster mechs or risk having the weapon(s) disabled.
I might even go farther and give a direct hit a chance to explode the missiles already in the tubes (since they're hot-loaded) for a smaller amount of damage to the structure/components.
(It would also effect Centurions and Stalkers.. but as a Centurion/Stalker/Everything pilot.. I think we can handle it.)
-Live
If you open the doors you're effectively removing the armor from the front. (If you open the hatch on a tank so a person can get out.. it doesn't have magical armor protecting it from a grenade being dropped in.)
It would give a reason for LRM mechs to keep theirs closed (if only during transit) and it would discourage SRM cats from well.. running around with Insta-gib SRM barrages.. they'd at least have to use SOME skill in timing when fighting faster mechs or risk having the weapon(s) disabled.
I might even go farther and give a direct hit a chance to explode the missiles already in the tubes (since they're hot-loaded) for a smaller amount of damage to the structure/components.
(It would also effect Centurions and Stalkers.. but as a Centurion/Stalker/Everything pilot.. I think we can handle it.)
-Live
#26
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Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:43 AM
The main complaint I have againt this cat is its totally undeserved nickname 'skillcat' splatcat works much better and isnt a lie
Otherwise they're ok until you have a group of 4 of them, a couple in a game really forces you to play carefully though... uunfortunately there really doesnt seem to be any 'fix' that doesnt have really bad unintended concequences
Otherwise they're ok until you have a group of 4 of them, a couple in a game really forces you to play carefully though... uunfortunately there really doesnt seem to be any 'fix' that doesnt have really bad unintended concequences
#27
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Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:51 AM
AC/20's comming out of Machine Gun Boreholes = Cheese and with no torso an jerkwad advantage. SRM 6's cats that over heat need you up close and have big boxes to shoot at are not cheese. Sorry no dice on this one. I do not pilot them but Hell cats I respect. They require more skill than any missle lock weapon. In fact Last night I ran from one swang around and blew its damn ears off. guess what he was useless.
#28
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Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:58 AM
PropagandaWar, on 13 February 2013 - 08:51 AM, said:
AC/20's comming out of Machine Gun Boreholes = Cheese and with no torso an jerkwad advantage. SRM 6's cats that over heat need you up close and have big boxes to shoot at are not cheese. Sorry no dice on this one. I do not pilot them but Hell cats I respect. They require more skill than any missle lock weapon. In fact Last night I ran from one swang around and blew its damn ears off. guess what he was useless.
Ac20 cat heats up just as fast as SRM cat and actually requires aiming to be effective rather than just running up to your opponent's face and pressing left mouse button. That face hugging style of combat more than anything else is why people find the SRM cat so cheesy.
Anyway, problem isn't the A1 cat in particular. It's SRMs generally. They do damage far in excess of their weight/space/heat/ammo/skill requirement. All the A1 does is exemplify the balance problems with particular missile weapons. First the LRM, then the SSRM, now the SRM.
SRM damage should be returned to the TT value (or at least reduced) to restore balance. Since the netcode fix they've become OP. The Trebuchet will drive this point home next week.
.
Edited by 5th Fedcom Rat, 13 February 2013 - 09:01 AM.
#29
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Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:59 AM
One of the main problems comes from the completely messed up Hardpoints.
For the life of me, I cannot imagine why PGI chose to make the Cat variants not like they were supposed to be.
C1: 2xLRM 15, 4 x ML (2 LRM launchers and 4 energy)
C4: 2xLRM 20, 1xSL (2 LRM launchers and 2 energy)
A1: 4xLRM 15 (2 LRM Launchers, no ernergy)
K2: 2xPPC, 2xMG (2 Energy, 2 x small ballistic)
Clearly the problem comes from the C4 which is supposed to be a slight variant of the C1 (upping the LRM15 to LRM20s at the cost of the energy hardpoints, which would translate very badly in the current game)
Not only has the catapult -never- been intended to use SRMs, the only variant with such missiles is the Butterbee, a Hero Mech, which is a modded C1 replacing the 2xLRM15 by 4xSRM6s (and imo it would be a bad idea to have a Hero Mech with 4xSRM6 and 4xML).
This is also clearly where the choice to not have a split between Light/Medium type Hardpoint and Heavy Hardpoints comes back to bite PGI in the rear end because it creates completely ridiculous builds (e.g. 2xGauss rifles that weighs 15 tons but are fitted in ports made for Machine Guns on the K2)
For the life of me, I cannot imagine why PGI chose to make the Cat variants not like they were supposed to be.
C1: 2xLRM 15, 4 x ML (2 LRM launchers and 4 energy)
C4: 2xLRM 20, 1xSL (2 LRM launchers and 2 energy)
A1: 4xLRM 15 (2 LRM Launchers, no ernergy)
K2: 2xPPC, 2xMG (2 Energy, 2 x small ballistic)
Clearly the problem comes from the C4 which is supposed to be a slight variant of the C1 (upping the LRM15 to LRM20s at the cost of the energy hardpoints, which would translate very badly in the current game)
Not only has the catapult -never- been intended to use SRMs, the only variant with such missiles is the Butterbee, a Hero Mech, which is a modded C1 replacing the 2xLRM15 by 4xSRM6s (and imo it would be a bad idea to have a Hero Mech with 4xSRM6 and 4xML).
This is also clearly where the choice to not have a split between Light/Medium type Hardpoint and Heavy Hardpoints comes back to bite PGI in the rear end because it creates completely ridiculous builds (e.g. 2xGauss rifles that weighs 15 tons but are fitted in ports made for Machine Guns on the K2)
Edited by Elandyll, 13 February 2013 - 02:53 PM.
#30
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Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:06 AM
Elandyll, on 13 February 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:
One of the main problems comes from the completely messed up Hardpoints.
For the life of me, I cannot imagine why PGI chose to make the Cat variants no like they were supposed to be.
C1: 2xLRM 15, 4 x ML (2 LRM launchers and 4 energy)
C4: 2xLRM 20, 1xSL (2 LRM launchers and 2 energy)
A1: 4xLRM 15 (2 LRM Launchers, no ernergy)
K2: 2xPPC, 2xMG (2 Energy, 2 x small ballistic)
Clearly ther problem comes from the C4 which is supposed to be a slight variant of the C1 (upping the LRM15 to LRM20s at the cost of the energy hardpoints, which would translate very badly in the current game)
Not only has the catapult -never- been intended to use SRMs, the only variant with such missiles is the Butterbee, a Hero Mech, which is a modded C1 replacing the 2xLRM15 by 4xSRM6s (and imo it would be a bad idea to have a Hero Mech with 4xSRM6 and 4xML).
This is also clearly where the choice to not have a split between Light/Medium type Hardpoint and Heavy Hardpoints comes back to bite PGI in the rear end because it creates completely ridiculous builds (e.g. 2xGauss rifles that weighs 15 tons but are fitted in ports made for Machine Guns on the K2)
For the life of me, I cannot imagine why PGI chose to make the Cat variants no like they were supposed to be.
C1: 2xLRM 15, 4 x ML (2 LRM launchers and 4 energy)
C4: 2xLRM 20, 1xSL (2 LRM launchers and 2 energy)
A1: 4xLRM 15 (2 LRM Launchers, no ernergy)
K2: 2xPPC, 2xMG (2 Energy, 2 x small ballistic)
Clearly ther problem comes from the C4 which is supposed to be a slight variant of the C1 (upping the LRM15 to LRM20s at the cost of the energy hardpoints, which would translate very badly in the current game)
Not only has the catapult -never- been intended to use SRMs, the only variant with such missiles is the Butterbee, a Hero Mech, which is a modded C1 replacing the 2xLRM15 by 4xSRM6s (and imo it would be a bad idea to have a Hero Mech with 4xSRM6 and 4xML).
This is also clearly where the choice to not have a split between Light/Medium type Hardpoint and Heavy Hardpoints comes back to bite PGI in the rear end because it creates completely ridiculous builds (e.g. 2xGauss rifles that weighs 15 tons but are fitted in ports made for Machine Guns on the K2)
It's actually worse than you think if you want to look at it that way. The A-1 is only supposed to have TWO LRM 15s, not four. It's a C-1 that trades all it's backup weapons for extra armor and ammo. PGI just added all the extra missile hardpoints because they were giving all Catapults a total of six. It was technically a bad variant that really didn't need to be in the game and I don't think the devs foresaw the issues that it would cause.
So the C-1 didn't get any extra hardpoints; neither did the K-2, but it has those super machine gun mounts that can hold any ballistic. The C-4 got three extra hardpoints, but they're in the CT so there's only so much you can do with them. The A-1 got +4, or triple what it should have had. I don't think any other mech in the game got that many extra added for "balance".
Edited by Warrax the Chaos Warrior, 13 February 2013 - 09:14 AM.
#31
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Posted 13 February 2013 - 11:55 AM
Warrax the Chaos Warrior, on 13 February 2013 - 09:06 AM, said:
The A-1 got +4, or triple what it should have had. I don't think any other mech in the game got that many extra added for "balance".
You mean like the DRG-5N and HBK-4G both getting 3 Ballistic hardpoints for a single cannon? Or maybe the AWS-8Q which got 2 energy mounts for each energy weapon on the mech? Or the CDA-2A getting 6 total energy hardpoints for 2 MLs and a SL?
I think that the CPLT is on par.
#32
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Posted 13 February 2013 - 12:06 PM
this thread is invalid without a poll to backfire
#33
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Posted 13 February 2013 - 12:08 PM
Elandyll, on 13 February 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:
One of the main problems comes from the completely messed up Hardpoints.
For the life of me, I cannot imagine why PGI chose to make the Cat variants no like they were supposed to be.
C1: 2xLRM 15, 4 x ML (2 LRM launchers and 4 energy)
C4: 2xLRM 20, 1xSL (2 LRM launchers and 2 energy)
A1: 4xLRM 15 (2 LRM Launchers, no ernergy)
K2: 2xPPC, 2xMG (2 Energy, 2 x small ballistic)
Clearly ther problem comes from the C4 which is supposed to be a slight variant of the C1 (upping the LRM15 to LRM20s at the cost of the energy hardpoints, which would translate very badly in the current game)
Not only has the catapult -never- been intended to use SRMs, the only variant with such missiles is the Butterbee, a Hero Mech, which is a modded C1 replacing the 2xLRM15 by 4xSRM6s (and imo it would be a bad idea to have a Hero Mech with 4xSRM6 and 4xML).
This is also clearly where the choice to not have a split between Light/Medium type Hardpoint and Heavy Hardpoints comes back to bite PGI in the rear end because it creates completely ridiculous builds (e.g. 2xGauss rifles that weighs 15 tons but are fitted in ports made for Machine Guns on the K2)
For the life of me, I cannot imagine why PGI chose to make the Cat variants no like they were supposed to be.
C1: 2xLRM 15, 4 x ML (2 LRM launchers and 4 energy)
C4: 2xLRM 20, 1xSL (2 LRM launchers and 2 energy)
A1: 4xLRM 15 (2 LRM Launchers, no ernergy)
K2: 2xPPC, 2xMG (2 Energy, 2 x small ballistic)
Clearly ther problem comes from the C4 which is supposed to be a slight variant of the C1 (upping the LRM15 to LRM20s at the cost of the energy hardpoints, which would translate very badly in the current game)
Not only has the catapult -never- been intended to use SRMs, the only variant with such missiles is the Butterbee, a Hero Mech, which is a modded C1 replacing the 2xLRM15 by 4xSRM6s (and imo it would be a bad idea to have a Hero Mech with 4xSRM6 and 4xML).
This is also clearly where the choice to not have a split between Light/Medium type Hardpoint and Heavy Hardpoints comes back to bite PGI in the rear end because it creates completely ridiculous builds (e.g. 2xGauss rifles that weighs 15 tons but are fitted in ports made for Machine Guns on the K2)
"Catapult CPLT-C1 Jenny "Butterbee" - The personal ride of MechWarrior Jenny Templeton, this variant of the Catapult replaces the standard arm-mounted LRM-15s with a quartet of SRM-6 missile launchers, two in each arm"
say hello to what i, for one, dearly would love to see as the catapult Hero Mech. directly from Cannon.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Catapult
#34
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Posted 13 February 2013 - 12:09 PM
Jakob Knight, on 13 February 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:
You mean like the DRG-5N and HBK-4G both getting 3 Ballistic hardpoints for a single cannon? Or maybe the AWS-8Q which got 2 energy mounts for each energy weapon on the mech? Or the CDA-2A getting 6 total energy hardpoints for 2 MLs and a SL?
I think that the CPLT is on par.
Those are all double or a little less on the energy weapons, none are triple, and all you could do with them is boat medium lasers (which is pretty "meh").
The extra ballistic slots on the Dragon and Hunchback are of dubious usefulness because of where they're located. Those are all examples of PGI adding hardpoints that either did end up balanced, or actually still left the mech underpowered.
Awesome, Dragon, and Cicada have always been regarded as some of the least optimal chassis. Hunchback might be the best medium, but none of your examples are close to "on par" with the Catapults.
The bonus hardpoint system was balanced for some mechs, left some still underpowered, and backfired completely for others.
Edited by Warrax the Chaos Warrior, 13 February 2013 - 12:11 PM.
#35
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Posted 13 February 2013 - 12:12 PM
I'm well known in my group of fellow mech warriors to be a huge fan of the Catapult. i have a Founders C1, the C4, the A1, and the K2. know which one i use the most?
"K2 with gauss or AC-20!" i hear you cry!
"No, it must be the A1 'splatapult' and it was probably a streakapult before that!" roar the others.
you're both entirely wrong.
C1(f) Catapult, with LRM-15/artemis, 3 mediums, and a tag. and i love her dearly.
"K2 with gauss or AC-20!" i hear you cry!
"No, it must be the A1 'splatapult' and it was probably a streakapult before that!" roar the others.
you're both entirely wrong.
C1(f) Catapult, with LRM-15/artemis, 3 mediums, and a tag. and i love her dearly.
#36
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Posted 13 February 2013 - 12:16 PM
Splatcats only appear unbalanced because they are an extremely specialized build. If you're running anything remotely long range and you get jumped by a splat cat, you are screwed, and justly so. Splatcats are extremely short range, they run hot, need XL engines to go fast and can be gimped by blowing off the ears.
Asking to nerf splatcats is really pathetic.
Asking to nerf splatcats is really pathetic.
#37
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Posted 13 February 2013 - 12:17 PM
Ironbound, on 12 February 2013 - 10:14 PM, said:
I'm making this thread under the assumption that you agree that 6 srm A1s are dumb, cheesy builds. If you don't agree that's fine, but in my personal experience from playing against them/piloting one I would say that they very much are. Whether or not it's overpowered is a whole different conversation.
I'm sure this argument has been done to death, so I'm not here to list reasons it is or counter reasons it isn't, I'm here to suggest a solution to the problem of mechs that are clearly meant to lrm boats/fire support mechs turning into srm sporting brawlers.
The weapon bay doors was a great idea, putting lag behind srms firing makes them just a bit slower and harder to use, effectively eliminating them. However, since the doors can be kept open indefinitely, this problem is ignorable.
Now I've heard rumors there is a damage bonus on open bay doors, but I feel, again from anecdotal experience from a few hundred games playing as one/ fighting them, that it is far and away not enough. I've heard 5%, if anyone has more information I'd love to hear it.
To the suggestion:
Make a shot against an open weapon bay door have a small chance to crit internals/ destroy a weapon used there.
This would make it so that potshotting them right as they open on lrm mechs wouldn't be incredibly powerful, but keeping them open indefinitely and letting someone land multiple hits is a very bad idea. It also sticks to reality: If I leave my missile tubes open, missile tubes that have weapon bay doors and are therefore unarmored themselves, I deserve to get borked if I get hit in them.
You could keep them open during short fights in which you really need that responsiveness, but keeping them open all the time would no longer be the obvious choice, and the A1 Skillcat would be a much less common sight on the battlefield.
This would also just generally help PGI distinguish LRM mechs from SRM mechs, as right now the two are very much interchangeable.
Thoughts?
I'm sure this argument has been done to death, so I'm not here to list reasons it is or counter reasons it isn't, I'm here to suggest a solution to the problem of mechs that are clearly meant to lrm boats/fire support mechs turning into srm sporting brawlers.
The weapon bay doors was a great idea, putting lag behind srms firing makes them just a bit slower and harder to use, effectively eliminating them. However, since the doors can be kept open indefinitely, this problem is ignorable.
Now I've heard rumors there is a damage bonus on open bay doors, but I feel, again from anecdotal experience from a few hundred games playing as one/ fighting them, that it is far and away not enough. I've heard 5%, if anyone has more information I'd love to hear it.
To the suggestion:
Make a shot against an open weapon bay door have a small chance to crit internals/ destroy a weapon used there.
This would make it so that potshotting them right as they open on lrm mechs wouldn't be incredibly powerful, but keeping them open indefinitely and letting someone land multiple hits is a very bad idea. It also sticks to reality: If I leave my missile tubes open, missile tubes that have weapon bay doors and are therefore unarmored themselves, I deserve to get borked if I get hit in them.
You could keep them open during short fights in which you really need that responsiveness, but keeping them open all the time would no longer be the obvious choice, and the A1 Skillcat would be a much less common sight on the battlefield.
This would also just generally help PGI distinguish LRM mechs from SRM mechs, as right now the two are very much interchangeable.
Thoughts?
Definitely not, re: your suggestion.
All mechs should be able to house any weapons that the pilot chooses in any customization that the hard points of the mech can handle.
#38
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Posted 13 February 2013 - 12:19 PM
Warrax the Chaos Warrior, on 13 February 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:
Those are all double or a little less on the energy weapons, none are triple, and all you could do with them is boat medium lasers (which is pretty "meh").
The extra ballistic slots on the Dragon and Hunchback are of dubious usefulness because of where they're located. Those are all examples of PGI adding hardpoints that either did end up balanced, or actually still left the mech underpowered.
Awesome, Dragon, and Cicada have always been regarded as some of the least optimal chassis. Hunchback might be the best medium, but none of your examples are close to "on par" with the Catapults.
The bonus hardpoint system was balanced for some mechs, left some still underpowered, and backfired completely for others.
The extra ballistic slots on the Dragon and Hunchback are of dubious usefulness because of where they're located. Those are all examples of PGI adding hardpoints that either did end up balanced, or actually still left the mech underpowered.
Awesome, Dragon, and Cicada have always been regarded as some of the least optimal chassis. Hunchback might be the best medium, but none of your examples are close to "on par" with the Catapults.
The bonus hardpoint system was balanced for some mechs, left some still underpowered, and backfired completely for others.
You mean the two good hunch variants? I mean come on the 4P and 4SP are the two most popular Hunchies for a reason. IMO the 4SP is the best hands down. Do you pilot dragons?
FerrolupisXIII, on 13 February 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:
I'm well known in my group of fellow mech warriors to be a huge fan of the Catapult. i have a Founders C1, the C4, the A1, and the K2. know which one i use the most?
"K2 with gauss or AC-20!" i hear you cry!
"No, it must be the A1 'splatapult' and it was probably a streakapult before that!" roar the others.
you're both entirely wrong.
C1(f) Catapult, with LRM-15/artemis, 3 mediums, and a tag. and i love her dearly.
"K2 with gauss or AC-20!" i hear you cry!
"No, it must be the A1 'splatapult' and it was probably a streakapult before that!" roar the others.
you're both entirely wrong.
C1(f) Catapult, with LRM-15/artemis, 3 mediums, and a tag. and i love her dearly.
Ferro that is my favorite LRM setup
FerrolupisXIII, on 13 February 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:
"Catapult CPLT-C1 Jenny "Butterbee" - The personal ride of MechWarrior Jenny Templeton, this variant of the Catapult replaces the standard arm-mounted LRM-15s with a quartet of SRM-6 missile launchers, two in each arm"
say hello to what i, for one, dearly would love to see as the catapult Hero Mech. directly from Cannon.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Catapult
Don't forget that it still would have the 4 C1 energy hard points also
#39
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Posted 13 February 2013 - 12:25 PM
I don't see the problem with the A1 boating SRM's... it has its flaws. Though, I wonder if we will ever get the Nova... I can just hear the crys now as 12 ER med lasers eat through people like butter....
Edited by Kousagi, 13 February 2013 - 12:25 PM.
#40
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Posted 13 February 2013 - 12:25 PM
5th Fedcom Rat, on 13 February 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:
Ac20 cat heats up just as fast as SRM cat and actually requires aiming to be effective rather than just running up to your opponent's face and pressing left mouse button. That face hugging style of combat more than anything else is why people find the SRM cat so cheesy.
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Umm the SRM cat requires aiming and "Have" big ears you can shoot at. The Thundercat and Gaussapults are weak and do not suffer from what other torso cannon mechs suffer from. Yep Torsos. They are minimal easy to hide with there huge torso radius. I have stated in several forums post I only despise these mechs for cosmetic reasons that is all. Same could be said for mr PPC stalker who should have tubes all over its chassis. Streak cats were jerkwad builds. They don't require crap for aiming. I have seen to many SRM cats miss and they are way less effective over 100 meters.
You know who they are dangerous too. Huggers yep. They hate huggers. If you hug you die. Do you hug?
Edited by PropagandaWar, 13 February 2013 - 12:34 PM.
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