80 replies to this topic

[Volthorne]

Deamhan, on 13 February 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:

What does the ECM do....
Or they could leave it as is, and give non ECM mechs dedicated TAG/NARC hard points. Oh and considering that both ECM and TAG can simply operate indefinitely where as NARC relies on ammo. NARC should last for as long as the mech it is attached to is alive OR the body part it is attached to is completely destroyed. If the body part is the CT, well I guess it'll last until that mech is dead.

That's uh... EXACTLY how NARC is supposed to work...

[OneEyed Jack]

Zero Neutral, on 13 February 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

I do not respond to comparisons between how some thing works in MWO and how some thing works on TT... I hold them completely separate. TT only inspires additions to MWO, it is not a gospel.

Learn to read. I wasn't comparing, I was specifically referencing the things it doesn't do in TT as being ADDED TO LIMIT LRMS.

Quote

Back to topic:

If ECM were made to balance LRM, then ECM mechs would not be able to equip LRM since this would create a monopoly over LRM use. If ECM were made to balance SSRM, then ECM mechs would not be able to equip SSRM since this could create a monopoly over SSRM use. The latter is an actual problem since no short range counter to ECM currently exists, whereas the former is not a problem because a long range counter to ECM does exist.

If ECM on the LRM carrier allowed it to ignore enemy ECM, then your conclusion might make some sense.

I feel you are lacking an understanding of the basic concept of balance in game design. It's not a scale with just two sides. Balance is something achieved through a large number of factors, some factors helping to balance other factors that they don't even have a direct relation to.

I had begun the post with the intention of trying to make you understand exactly why you're wrong, but I really don't feel like taking the time to write the length of post (besides the fact no one reads posts that long) and spending the time it would take.

[Zero Neutral]

Kyone Akashi, on 13 February 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:

Besides, TAG is useless when the ECM carrier has the TAGging 'Mech in range of its bubble.

Which means that the only ECM-Mech that can be reliably overridden by TAG is the Atlas. Which is the one ECM-Mech that nobody is complaining about.

Actually this is the only problem that I have with ECM atm.

You described the situation a bit incorrectly. In your scenario, if the LRM mech is within range of its' target's ECM bubble, then the LRM are already worthless because the target is within 180m of the LRM mech.

However, this can happen, which is a little odd for my taste:

Mech A (Team 1) is an LRM boat with TAG

Mech B (Team 2) is a fast light mech with ECM

Mech C (Team 2) is the target, and does not have any ECM, but is covered under a nearby ECM bubble.

The distance between Mech A and Mech C is 700 meters.

The distance between Mech A and Mech B is 50 meters.

Here is what will happen if Mech A tries to fire LRM at Mech C:

If Mech A tries to TAG Mech C, it will fail even though Mech C is clearly within TAG range. The reason is because Mech B is disrupting the sensors of Mech A. I think that this should not be true. If Mech A is firing a TAG laser at Mech C, the effects of the TAG should still work even though Mech B is using its' ECM on Mech A.

However, the effects of TAG should still have no effect on Mech B because it is within 180m of Mech A.

This is just my opinion and I can definitely see the benefit of how the system currently works. If it were as I described it, then light mechs would not be able to lock down LRM boats, other than by destroying them which is tough because of their limited firepower and armor.

I hope that this makes sense, good luck.

Edited by Zero Neutral, 13 February 2013 - 03:01 PM.

[Deamhan]

Zero Neutral, on 13 February 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

Actually this is the only problem that I have with ECM atm.

You described the situation a bit incorrectly. In your scenario, if the LRM mech is within range of its' target's ECM bubble, then the LRM are already worthless because the target is within 180m of the LRM mech.

However, this can happen, which is a little odd for my taste:

Mech A (Team 1) is an LRM boat with TAG

Mech B (Team 2) is a fast light mech with ECM

Mech C (Team 2) is the target, and does not have any ECM, but is covered under a nearby ECM bubble.

The distance between Mech A and Mech C is 700 meters.

The distance between Mech A and Mech B is 50 meters.

Here is what will happen if Mech A tries to fire LRM at Mech C:

If Mech A tries to TAG Mech C, it will fail even though Mech C is clearly within TAG range. The reason is because Mech B is disrupting the sensors of Mech A. I think that this should not be true. If Mech A is firing a TAG laser at Mech C, the effects of the TAG should still work even though Mech B is using its' ECM on Mech A.

However, the effects of TAG should still have no effect on Mech B because it is within 180m of Mech A.

This is just my opinion and I can definitely see the benefit of how the system currently works. If it were as I described it, then light mechs would not be able to lock down LRM boats, other than by destroying them which is tough because of their limited firepower and armor.

I hope that this makes sense, good luck.

Agreed but with one exception. Since Mech A is in the bubble, their comms link with allies is blocked. While they get the benefit of TAG, their allies should not since the allies are not getting the targeting info from Mech A.

[Javok]

Well, if someone thinks ECM doesnt need fixing just think what would happen if every mech was ECM capable... who wouldnt carry one?

[Zero Neutral]

Javok, on 13 February 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:

Well, if someone thinks ECM doesnt need fixing just think what would happen if every mech was ECM capable... who wouldnt carry one?

Just think, if horses could fly like airplanes who wouldn't ride one?

In reality, not every mech can use ECM, and that will never happen.

Deamhan, on 13 February 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

Agreed but with one exception. Since Mech A is in the bubble, their comms link with allies is blocked. While they get the benefit of TAG, their allies should not since the allies are not getting the targeting info from Mech A.

Yes, I can tell that you see what I mean, and that I haven't thought through every single one of the details associated with my suggestion.

I also have not thought of all of the detriments that may impact players due to my suggestion, it's just some thing that I thought about when using LRM... "This is BULL! He's getting hit by my TAG but it does nothing... QQ!"

[KnightKnownasNii]

I think it's just fine and unbroken. If you're bothered by it, deal with it. Its the way ECM is designed to work and functions correctly. Stop using streaks and do something different. :-)

[AnarchyBurger]

ECM is obviously way different than it has been historically in Tabletop and past computer versions. Why the devs decided to make is soooo good is beyond my comprehension. Historically.
ECM cloaks you mech from enemy sensors
ECM jams your OWN sensors
ECM only effects one mech (the user)
There have been other various drawbacks for ecm in games including not being able to use lock on weapons, and having a faster lock on time (for your enemies on you). Though it was still a viable component and you were always able to turn it off if you needed too.

Currently my big issue with ECM is, its just too good. Not only does it cloak but it has NO drawback and bubbles your allies. (not to mention virtually making missles pointless). I have no problem as others said giving all these abilities to extra modules or components. But for one extremely cheap and light device to be so good.... is just dumb.

[Javok]

Zero Neutral, on 13 February 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

Just think, if horses could fly like airplanes who wouldn't ride one?

In reality, not every mech can use ECM, and that will never happen.

In reality, there are no mechs. This is a game, with a poorly implemented ECM model and network issues, which is why it was dumb to put it in fast lights in the first place. The thing is just too powerful and has no drawbacks, it weight almost nothing, occupies barely any space and produces no heat, yet it has a huge in-game impact to the point that you would have to be an ***** not to use it if given the option.

That is just poor implementation of a flawed idea. Btw, I would be perfectly fine with a heavy, large and heat producing ECM module available for all classes so you have to make trade-offs, just as with any other important piece of equipment in this game, and manage its heat using it in bursts.

Make it a true option to add a further dimension to a build and not a mere default ez-mode.

Edited by Javok, 13 February 2013 - 05:32 PM.

[Codejack]

Acarmyof1, on 13 February 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

I think it's just fine and unbroken. If you're bothered by it, deal with it. Its the way ECM is designed to work and functions correctly. Stop using streaks and do something different. :-)

Why should I quit using streaks? All I need is one of the PGI-approved chassis': 3L, 2D, or DDC.

The really embarrassing part is that they blatantly tried to kill streaks with ECM... and they still failed.

[Zero Neutral]

Javok, on 13 February 2013 - 05:30 PM, said:

Gripe gripe gripe gripe gripe gripe /post

Offer some thing useful... don't just complain.

Your argument is also flawed because in reality, there are mechs, in this video game.

Back to topic:

ECM is what it is... it is not going to be as you described, nor as I had in mind either. Design decisions are made by a team of people at PGI, not the fans.

Posting in the suggestion forum is the best way to get your idea out there, but even then it might be overlooked... but you don't really have an idea, so nm.

Codejack, on 13 February 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:

Why should I quit using streaks? All I need is one of the PGI-approved chassis': 3L, 2D, or DDC.

The really embarrassing part is that they blatantly tried to kill streaks with ECM... and they still failed.

Your logic is completely flawed.

If ECM was meant to address SSRM in any way, then why can ECM mechs use SSRM? That fact alone makes your argument total garbage trash.

ECM is the MAINSTAY of the electronic warfare system, NOT a balancing tool for any kind of weapon system. ECM is a catalyst for electronic warfare, it just so happens that SSRM and LRM use electronics to lock on targets.

Who is bare-assed embarrassed now?

Edited by Zero Neutral, 13 February 2013 - 05:35 PM.

[AnarchyBurger]

Acarmyof1, on 13 February 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

I think it's just fine and unbroken. If you're bothered by it, deal with it. Its the way ECM is designed to work and functions correctly. Stop using streaks and do something different. :-)

Ironically Streaks are for ECM users so yea. Splattercats are where its at as far as SRMs go now anyways so moot point.

[Nubsternator]

MurnShaw, on 13 February 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

I've been in the "ECM is fine" camp ever since I started playing, despite never having owned an ECM mech or played one. But recently my friend bought a Raven-3L and we've been harassing together, me in my Jenner and him in his Raven. There is a huge difference in the quality of our encounters between not having ECM and having it. With ECM I can pick when and where to engage an enemy. I can actually stop moving for a minute, survey the battlefield, notify my team of my findings, and proceed with a plan. I don't have to worry about LRMs and if I stumble upon an SRMcat I have time to run, regroup, and re-engage when his attentions are elsewhere.

Without ECM no matter how much cover I put between me and the enemy team I have around 5 seconds to look around before an ERPPC/Gauss Round/LRMs start flying toward me. When I engage any enemy my first thought is always, "I hope they don't have an LRM boat." There is no such thing as picking off stragglers - A single lone mech just needs to hold out long enough for a teammate to arrive and my goose is cooked. If I stumble upon an ambush I generally barely survive with most of my armor stripped off. I spend all of my time running and reacting to what the enemy does, and if none of my teammates are around to pose a bigger threat all I have is cover and erratic piloting to save my butt.

I guess my point in all of this is, Maybe ECM is working as intended, but the last week or so has really opened my eyes about the consequences of those intentions. They say to me, "Don't play without ECM unless you enjoy being hunted." Just as the faster mech in a brawl has the initiative, the side with more ECM also has the initiative. And whereas there is a trade-off between agility and stamina when it comes to mech maneuverability (XL means faster but weaker, Light means faster but weaker), there is no trade-off when it comes to ECM. Having it never means making a sacrifice in another area, whereas not having it means spending a whole round forced to defend against enemy maneuvers, hoping they make a wrong move.

I think it's worth thinking about.

^This

[ArmandTulsen]

Daiichidoku, on 13 February 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:

ECM is broken?

O hai der.

[Kaspirikay]

Just remove lock on immunity and increase lock on time.

[Volthorne]

Master Rules (Revised) read pages 85 and 136.

[Kreisel]

Personally my largest concerns with ECM are twofold:

• Bringing it into line with the power level of comparable equipment you could take in it's place. (BAP, CASE, CASE, AMS, TAG, ARTEMIS, Jump Jets)
  
• Addressing the fact that ECM takes away the fun of the game for players who wish to use lock on systems by making them entirely non-functional. No player should be stuck with a set up where another mech can make it literally impossible for him to use his weapons and have nothing he can do about it.

Those are the two points of balance I feel need to be addressed, It's up to PGI to decide HOW to address them, there have been many suggestions, and I'm sure they are aware of these problems and are just looking for what they feel is the best fix. Personally I feel Nerfing ECM is a must to accomplish these goals, but perhaps I'm wrong... maybe the way to go about it is instead to buff this other equipment so ECM doesn't outweigh it in coolness and power factor. Perhaps instead of changing ECM a more functional system for dumbfiring LRM's so you don't just feel like your wasting ammo and the ability to dumbfire ssrms is what is needed for missile boats to not feel so helpless.

JJ got a good boost in the recent patch and start to feel like it's worth considering them again, but is it enough to really pick them over ECM? Who chose a Raven 4X over the 3L (except to master the Raven pilot tree or troll)?The Atlas-k with it's 2 AMS ought to be the mech to pick if you want to protect your team from incoming missiles, it's literally the only thing that stands out about it, but the D-DC is a much better missile shield by preventing their lock. AMS has been pushed out of it's nitch it needs to be bumped up so there are reasons to consider it above ECM or consider putting ECM ad AMS on the same mech (and not feel like your just wasting tonnage). If Missiles are a problem and a piece of equipment is needed to counter them AMS should be it, NOT ECM. Sure ECM could help, but not be THE defense against them. BAP is woefully underpowered is comparison, Same weight, same crit-space, also purely electronic warfare gear... and largely disappointing especially when you line up it's stats against ECM which also outright beats it.

[yashmack]

ECM is fine in my opinion

[Commander Kobold]

Javok, on 13 February 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:

Well, if someone thinks ECM doesnt need fixing just think what would happen if every mech was ECM capable... who wouldnt carry one?

This

[Nightcrept]

OneEyed Jack, on 13 February 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

Really?  You think that utter BS convinces anyone?  Unless the only thing mechs you've ever played are ECM lights and you completely avoid each and every large open area on any map, then that statement is flat impossible.  And even in that case it would be unlikely.