200 replies to this topic

[Zakie Chan]

They should have left them doubles and used physical number of heatsinks + modifier equal to the max heat a mech can sustain before shut down.

You are then faced with a nice tradeoff, Value alphas vs sustained fire.

[Diablobo]

Since PGI is going with the PTW Coolant Flushes, they might as well make a module slot that will give 2.0 DHS as an MC-only purchase.

[FiveDigits]

Zakie Chan, on 07 March 2013 - 02:01 AM, said:

They should have left them doubles and used physical number of heatsinks + modifier equal to the max heat a mech can sustain before shut down.

You are then faced with a nice tradeoff, Value alphas vs sustained fire.

This boils down to the idea of both SHS and DHS providing the same heat threshold increase (+1.0) with DHS providing true double dissipation (-0.2 HPS). Many players came up with that solution somewhat independantly, yet we don't even get a reaction of any sort from PGI.


Thanks for the thread move to Balancing though.

[MustrumRidcully]

Thontor, on 14 February 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

Sustained DPS is irrelevant. That is simply the DPS capability after you have reached a heat level where the next shot would put you past 100% heat.

You are missing the point.. it's the amount of damage that can be dished out before that heat level is reached.

*snip*

What matters is the amount of damage you can inflict in a short time.

If we'd use your logic, we should equip a Cicada only with 2 Medium Lasers and 10 Double Heat Sinks. Then it could deal infinite damage because it will never overheat. Totally Overpowered.

It doesn't matter if after 60 seconds you could theoretically have dealt 600 damage, if you're already dead after a 20 second engagement because your enemy ran twice as hot with twice as much damage output - overheating just after he destroyed your mech.

[MustrumRidcully]

Thontor, on 14 February 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

Because essentially, that's how it worked in TT. If you extrapolite the 10 second turn as happening in real time.

Let's say you have a stock AWS-8Q.. you have 3 PPCs (and a small laser) and 28 heat sinks

At the start of the 10 seconds represented by the turn, you fire your 3 ppcs and your heat spikes to 30. Then over the next 10 seconds your heat sinks dissapate 28 heat, leaving 2 heat.. and this is what is shown on your heat scale at the end of the turn.

so essentially, the TT heat scale is 30 + Heat dissipated by your heat sinks per 10 seconds.

If it was just a fixed heat capacity of 30 in TT, your heat would spike to 30.. and this would shut you down immediately.

I understood the reason why PGI did it this way just as you did, but there is a crucial flaw:

The AWS-8Q cannot possibly fire 6 PPCs in 10 seconds without overheating in the table top. That would put him at 32 heat (if he was able to install 3 more at all)

But in MW:O, he can. Fire 4 PPCs, brining your heat level to 40. You still have 18 heat left. Now wait 1 second (sinking 2.3 heat), and you can fire two more PPCs. Now your Hexawesome has dealt 60 damage in less than 10 seconds.

The error PGI made was assuming that the TT rules suggest that all weapons are fired exactly at the same time. But the rules only suggest that each weapon is fired at some point in the 10 second cycle. What is called an "alpha strike" in TT doesn't have to mean simultatanously firing all weapons. It means firing them all within the 10 seconds of a turn.

So the "real" mechwarrior actually needs to "chain-fire". Which may also be why every weapon needs its own hit location roll, because he usually fires them seperately so he can spread out the heat generation.

He still gets the same effective average damage output this way, because he still can fire al his weapons whenever they are ready. Just for the first 10 seconds, he doesn't utilize the potential fire rate.

[MustrumRidcully]

Thontor, on 12 March 2013 - 05:19 AM, said:

Interesting, you are jumping into the middle of a conversation there... Of course you are right in your example, but it doesn't rally have anything to do with the point.

In fact you are kind of supporting my point. true DHS giving a higher heat threshold will allow mechs to dish out more damage in a shorter time. That same hot mech you mentioned will be able to do even more damage before overheating.. Not just because of the increased dissipation... But because the increased dissipation and increased capacity work synergistically.



I was just explaining to someone who asked why heat sinks increased heat capacity... It certainly works differently in a real time environment where we aren't limited to firing once every 10 seconds. That is not in question.

And I point out that they did it that way is actually incorrect and not very faithful in causing the same consequences as the table top system. It is what enables all those alpha strike monster builds people are scared off when they talk about how double heat sinks would be OP. It always boils down to people being able to deliver intense, short bursts that are overpowering enemy defenses.

The PGI solution doesn't even adress this issue. DHS still increase the heat capacity and encourages alpha strike builds.

[FiveDigits]

A redesign of the DHS mechanics as we suggested it

• uniform +1.0 heat threshhold per heat sink (SHS and DHS) or even a fixed threshold (flat or based on tonnage/mech)
  
• uniform 0.2 HPS dissipation for DHS

really would solve mutliple problems at once:

• Curb alpha potential due to huge heat threshold increase with DHS.
  
• Provide uniform, fair, easily understood dissipation mechanics for DHS.
  
• Give SHS a viability niche for alpha builds (if we don't go for a HS-independant threshhold) at the cost of dissipation.
  
• Open up engine choices, when going below 250 rating doesn't cost invaluable true DHS any more.

Edited by FiveDigits, 12 March 2013 - 07:01 AM.

[dal10]

PurpleNinja, on 14 February 2013 - 03:24 AM, said:

A lot of graphs and info, but PGI already stated that "real" DHS is OP.
I don't agree with then, but it's their game.
They also say ECM is OK.

they said it is getting a balancing pass soon^tm

[AndyHill]

MustrumRidcully, on 12 March 2013 - 05:03 AM, said:

So the "real" mechwarrior actually needs to "chain-fire". Which may also be why every weapon needs its own hit location roll, because he usually fires them seperately so he can spread out the heat generation.

He still gets the same effective average damage output this way, because he still can fire al his weapons whenever they are ready. Just for the first 10 seconds, he doesn't utilize the potential fire rate.

...and if we had to do this, we could have the 10s cooldown per weapon while still firing more often than now, there probably wouldn't be need for double armor, heat and weight balance would be as good as in the TT (not perfect mind you), engagements would take longer etc. I don't know how much further tweaking would be necessary, but translating TT experience into real time isn't magic like some would have you believe, and it sure as heck isn't randomly stabbing into each direction trying to hit a balance point by accident. At least if you want to succeed.

[Cyke]

I've just read over the many posts that have been here so far, and I doubt that I can say anything that hasn't already been stated.

Just mentioning that I like the idea of DHS that have "true" 0.2 heat/sec dissipation, but only increase the heat threshold by 1.0 point (same as a SHS). Seems like that will reduce the truly dangerous effects of boating (massive Alphas, or worse, multiple massive Alphas in a row), while still allowing the full dissipation of "truedub" DHS to increase sustained damage output over a longer period of time.


Also, if the "poordubs" for external non-engine DHS are meant to improve the viability of Light 'Mechs (by making it more difficult to make a heat efficient high-firepower Heavy/Assault).. I believe this is really no longer needed.

The playerbase has long since become experienced enough to use Light 'Mechs effectively without needing artificial encouragement to use lighter chassis.

Edited by Cyke, 12 March 2013 - 08:09 AM.

[Duncan Longwood]

I would be happiest if they made it so that the mech efficiencies, like 2X coolrun, brought us up precisely to 2.0DHS. I can RP the idea that I am piloting a 1000+ year old vehicle that I don't know how to get max performance out of without experience. After piloting 3 different 1000+ year old chassis I, as a MechWarrior, can push my ride further than some kid fresh out of the Nagelring. I find it believable that I couldn't just hop in a giant robot and get max performance out of it, no matter how much money I dropped on it. Even pro drivers need a few warm-up laps to get the most from their racecar.

I like the direction they are going in by concentrating on the pilot and not the robot. I also like how a base mech is kinda nerfed compared to one with an experienced pilot. I don't think it's perfect right now, but I like where they are going. This isn't a solution, this is just my opinion.

[Zyllos]

A lot about mech efficiencies are what I find as analogs to MechWarrior skills of Gunnary and Piloting.

The problem with the mech efficiencies is that all of them are allowed to be used for each mech.

I personally think it would be better if they used their Module system for skills also. Only so many Mech Efficiencies can be equipped.

On top of that, they should be adding MechWarrior skills, which effect all mechs. Again, only a few can be equipped out of the list.

But that is not the major focus of this thread.

[MAFH]

SinnerX, on 14 February 2013 - 03:21 AM, said:

The first thing that broke from canon was being able to shoot more than once per 10 seconds. Why doesn't anyone argue about setting that back to the TT value?

Second was the double armor values. No one argues about that, either.

Maybe it's because what works in TT doesn't work in a MechWarrior video game. Le gasp.

Wasn't there a Solaris ruleset where you can fire more then once every ten seconds?

[MustrumRidcully]

MAFH, on 17 March 2013 - 12:31 AM, said:

Wasn't there a Solaris ruleset where you can fire more then once every ten seconds?

yes ,and it was dumb. PPCs fired every 10 seconds for 10 damage, MGs every 2.5 seconds for 2 damage each. That doesn't match up at all to normal table top stats.

[Kmieciu]

Here is my $0.02:

1) Increase the heat dissipation of External DHS from 1.4 to 2.0
2) Cut the heat capacity of internal and external DHS in half (1.0 point per DHS)
3) Introduce penalties for alpha striking. For example you will shut down automatically if you gain more that 50% of total heat during one second.

That would fix the following:
1) Jenners and Cicadas backstabbing with 6xML.
2) 6xPPC Stalkers. Chain firing PPC-Awesomes would become a viable option.
3) Trial mechs with SHS would have heat capacity comparable to optimized builds using DHS.

But I guess PGI wants DHS to be a mandatory 1.5 milion C-bills expense, to promote grinding. (buy premium time, it's on sale!)

Edited by Kmieciu, 18 March 2013 - 01:06 AM.

[FiveDigits]

I mainly pilot mediums. I recently refitted several CN9s and HBKs removing most external DHS (e.g. down from 16 DHS to 12 DHS). I could fit more weapons and/or a larger engine while the perceived loss of cooling ability was negligible.
In a mech with the ability to mostly engage and disengage at will alpha strike potential is king. The main beneficial effect of my ten 2.0 internal DHS are the +20 heat capacity (further augmented by pilot skills) - not the dissipation.
The more I think about it, the more I test different build philosophies the more it becomes apparent.

Heat capacity is the balance issue - not dissipation!

All the builds that give us a hard time currently are alpha builds:

• 4-6 PPC Stalker
  
• Splat Cat
  
• Splat CN9-A

Let DHS do their double dissipation. But we really need to think about heat capacity. Decoupling those two mechanics both in discussions and in (future) implementations would be helpful, I think.

[Deathlike]

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2079830

Finally figured out the 3-sec Jenner that has been referenced. 6 small lasers can be effectively cooled down to a point to where the mech is literally heat neutral if 2.0 DHS was implemented across the board.

[MustrumRidcully]

Deathlike, on 18 March 2013 - 07:25 PM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2079830

Finally figured out the 3-sec Jenner that has been referenced. 6 small lasers can be effectively cooled down to a point to where the mech is literally heat neutral if 2.0 DHS was implemented across the board.

That's terrible!
2 Gauss Rifles on any mech are heat neutral.
2 Medium Lasers on any mech with 10 engine Double Heta Sinks are heat neutral.

We can't have heat neutral mechs! If you have those, you fail at making a true Battletech game. Becausethere is mech in Battletech that's heat neutral, and it's unpossible to build one by the mech construction rules! Anything heat neutral is automatically OP!

---

On a more serious note - 6 small lasers deal 18 damage per salvo, a total of 36 over 3 seconds (assuming you fire at 0 seconds and can fire again at 3 seconds). Still not enough for a normal Atlas to be cored.
And you don't need to be heat neutral to achieve this damage output in 3 seconds either. You could even do it without heat sinks. Base Heat Capacity is 30, 6 SLs generate 12 heat, fired twice 24, still below 30.

Maybe it was something with 2 SRM4s (20 damage doable in 3 seconds) and 4 SLs. Total 54 damage. Maybe the SRM4s splash was also bugged back then? Still, I find it hard to find a 3 second build where heat matters at all, regardless of type of heat sink. And on Lights, it's even ahrder to find even builds that add extra double heat sinks beyond the engine. You just don't need it.

[Deathlike]

I've done a little bit of research on heat threshold.. so I think there's a major issue with it.

PPCs themselves generate 8 pts of heat, which is actually rather "low" given what it does. The heat generated should be 9 or 9.5 or so... and I'll explain why.

Since the heat threshold is starts at 30, it is easily increased through having a 250 engine. So, w/o having added an extra HS, it starts at 40 with SHS, and 50 with DHS.

With 6 PPCs, the heat generated is 48 pts, which is already lower than the default threshold of a DHS engine. Of course, this forces the machine to take a long while to cooldown, but this should put you in shutdown in the first place!

This is before we add heat containment. Having full efficiencies, you gain as much as 20% to heat containment. The base 10 SHS engine will now have a threshold of 48, DHS now at 60.

So... here's a few suggestions off the bat:
PPC needs its heat increased between 9 and 9.5... it will make PPC stalkers less effective (having 5 PPCs should probably be the max, but we'll see).

Since DHS increases cooling rate naturally faster, swapping the heat threshold bonus between SHS and DHS in the engine should mitigate the heat threshold problem. If you plan on using DHS, you're stuff as much as you can anyways. The difference in the numbers is significant (12 pts between the stock 10 HS engine). It won't really change the behavior of light and mediums, but it would change the boatage of PPCs (like 4 PPC racts).

A few additions:
Here's the fun kicker that isn't part of the discussion, but should help stock mechs immensely... SHS heatsinks in the engine should use the same heat dissipation rates as DHS heatsinks in the engine. That in itself should correct issues with light mechs requiring the DHS upgrade to be useful. It will indirectly allow SHS to be an alternative.

However, another "upgrade" for SHS should be made available. Similar to adding HS to the engines rated 275 or greater, mechs that have engines under 250 have the option to "add external HS to the engine". Any HS added to the engine through this method would be considered "engine heatsinks" and have the appropriate bonuses. This upgrade will cost less than the DHS upgrade, but will still cost a pretty penny (1 million c-bills seems appropriate). No additional slots may be taken up (this can change for balance reasons, perhaps consuming the same # of slots as an XL engine would), but at least now you are not penalized for using slow engines (you can be a statue if you'd like).

Feel free to discuss. I just threw this out there because it made sense to me in my head.

Edited by Deathlike, 19 March 2013 - 08:29 AM.

[FiveDigits]

The thread moves to a new forum again. The issue is still unresolved.