54 replies to this topic

[Lukoi Banacek]

Khobai, on 14 February 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

Mostly because of aiming. In tabletop, hit locations are entirely random, and your center torso only gets hit roughly 20% of the time. MWO uses the tabletop armor values, which assume the center torso only gets hit 20% of the time, but in MWO you can aim for specific locations instead of it being random. The end result is that locations like the center torso are drastically underarmored compared to how often they get hit and mechs die much faster than they should.

See I disagree with this anecdotal tidbit entirely. I understand that human precision has made TT randomization of hit locatiion useless and therefore made armor something that had to be increased to compensate. But haven't they essentially doubled the relationship between armor and weapons versus TT? And in most matches I feel like assaults and heavies can weather through an appropriate amount of damage.

And its mainly due to pilot skill or lack there of. The same skill that allows some pilots to hit where they aim with more precision allows people to torso twist between shots to roll the damage over multiple locations. You see it all of the time. Pilots who manuever their bodies last much longer than pilots who come straight at you without moving their torsos.

So while human precision has changed the way hit location works, human know how can spread the damage around pretty effectively too. With the increased armor values included, I FEEL pretty heavy and indomitable in my assaults and can last a really long time and I'm by no means an ace pilot (yet...I'm working on it, quit pressuring me!!).

[Khobai]

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Khobai,
6, 7 & 8 are the more common combos on a bell curve with 2 D6 your 3 torsos get hit more often than most, then arms/legs then Head/Golden BB.

In tabletop, center torso gets hit on a roll of 2 or 7. Chance to roll a 2 is about 2.8%. Chance to roll a 7 is about 16.67%. So your overall chance to hit someone in the center torso is about 19.5%.

How often does someone's center torso get hit in MWO? I will tell you right now it's WAY more than 19.5% (probably more like 50%-70%). Center torsos in MWO are drastically underarmored. Not just by a little either, but by A LOT.

I really don't think it would be unreasonable to shift say 20% of the armor from the arms/legs to the center torso/side torsos to help alleviate that imbalance somewhat.

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haven't they essentially doubled the relationship between armor and weapons versus TT?

Correct. They doubled armor.

But they also tripled the rate of fire, added aiming which accelerates mech death by 3-5 times faster, and they scaled up the size of hit locations on larger mechs which further increases the probability of hitting those locations.

Double armor is just not adequate enough to keep up. And the problem is going to get far worse with the introduction of Clan tech because Clan weapons do massive pinpoint damage. You'll see Clan mechs with 3-4 Clan ER PPCs that will absolutely wreck face. That's 45-60 damage in one location from across the map!

Edited by Khobai, 14 February 2013 - 07:16 AM.

[Zyllos]

Lukoi, on 14 February 2013 - 06:50 AM, said:

See I disagree with this anecdotal tidbit entirely. I understand that human precision has made TT randomization of hit locatiion useless and therefore made armor something that had to be increased to compensate. But haven't they essentially doubled the relationship between armor and weapons versus TT? And in most matches I feel like assaults and heavies can weather through an appropriate amount of damage.

And its mainly due to pilot skill or lack there of. The same skill that allows some pilots to hit where they aim with more precision allows people to torso twist between shots to roll the damage over multiple locations. You see it all of the time. Pilots who manuever their bodies last much longer than pilots who come straight at you without moving their torsos.

So while human precision has changed the way hit location works, human know how can spread the damage around pretty effectively too. With the increased armor values included, I FEEL pretty heavy and indomitable in my assaults and can last a really long time and I'm by no means an ace pilot (yet...I'm working on it, quit pressuring me!!).

I say no, because weapon fire is tripled based on the TT. Also, all weapons fired will all hit the same location, which will also never happen in TT.

Much of what is stated in this thread is correct, weapon damage/heat to rate of fire to armor ratios are all out of wack. Weapons are MUCH too accurate. This is why you never see players aiming for arms because it is SO much more efficient to just aim for left/right torsos, which is bearly any more armor than the arms but destroys the arms when destroying it.

The only way to achieve balance in this regard is to add some weapon fire spreading mechanics. What I suggested is that all weapons mounted on the torsos only fire straight ahead while arms can converge on a location. Also, weapon ports that have multiple hardpoints (visible single ballistic barrel on the mech but with 2 or more ballistic hardpoints) should not be allowed to fire at the same time (visibly having a single shell but dealing double damage). This will help to spread more of the damage around on a targetted mech while not implementing any artifical spread mechanics (because EVERYONE is against a cone of fire in an FPS for some reason). This will also give more power to arm mounted weaponry, thus making players want to aim for arms if they contain many different weapon systems in which they can be converged on a single point of the pilot's choice.

[Khobai]

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The only way to achieve balance in this regard is to add some weapon fire spreading mechanics.

You can also mitigate it somewhat by redistributing armor ratios based on how often locations get hit in MWO... rather than basing the armor ratios on tabletop, which makese absolutely NO sense.

[Joseph Mallan]

MustrumRidcully, on 14 February 2013 - 06:07 AM, said:

While I kinda like being able to fire every 5 seconds (regardless of whether damag eand heat was adjusted or not), there is an interesting chance to be expected when people could fire only every 10 seconds. it might feel a bit boring, but on the other hand, timing your shots well might be much more important now - taking an early pot shot an enemy that's closing in may be unwise if you would hit more precisely at closer range. But if the enemy takes the opportunity to move into cover during the time yo uwait, you just wasted a lot of damage by not firing. Worse even if he took a shot but you waited too long!

Still, I would probably prefer a game set around 4-5 second cycle times for weapons and heat sinks. And a real heat scale, instead of the "regenerating ammo" heat system we have right now.


Do we need to go through themath again to remind everyone why the Solaris 7 dueling rules are bad and fail to replicate Battletech on a 2.5 second turn scale?

I won't, I'll just point out a PPC deals 10 damage in 10 seconds in and a Medium Laser deals 5 damage in 10 seconds in Battletech, in the Dueling Rules the PPC deals 10 and the Medium Laser deals 10, too. If you think that makes sense and maintains the weapon (im)balance of the table top... Well, I am not a math teacher.

technically I'm not suggesting firing every ten seconds An I do think I wrote up my position wrong... again. A Mech can cool down and recycle at teh same time. So while the AC is reloading and the PPC is recharging the Mech is cooling. So say a Weapon with a 4 second cyclic rate is the slowest, time the Sinks to vent in 4.3 seconds. faster cyclic weapons will still build heat, but the slower weapons would be ok. That makes sense to me... Did I explain it better this time?

[MustrumRidcully]

Joseph Mallan, on 14 February 2013 - 07:18 AM, said:

technically I'm not suggesting firing every ten seconds An I do think I wrote up my position wrong... again. A Mech can cool down and recycle at teh same time. So while the AC is reloading and the PPC is recharging the Mech is cooling. So say a Weapon with a 4 second cyclic rate is the slowest, time the Sinks to vent in 4.3 seconds. faster cyclic weapons will still build heat, but the slower weapons would be ok. That makes sense to me... Did I explain it better this time?

I understood it the first time, I just wanted to say that 10 second cycle times also might be interesting. And people that say these are unacceptable - last I heard, World of Tanks also has weapons that fire even less often than every 10 seconds. And there, you probably don't have more than one main gun, while in MW:O, you got usually something between 4-6, if not more.

With a 10 second firing cycle, who knows, maybe convergence becomes even less of an issue, because splitting your weapons to be able to shoot at targets of opportunity becomes more useful?

[Khobai]

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World of Tanks also has weapons that fire even less often than every 10 seconds

World of Tanks also has one shot kills.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 14 February 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

World of Tanks also has one shot kills.

So does TT and i can one shot some light Mechs in the MMO.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 14 February 2013 - 07:45 AM.

[Khobai]

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So does TT and i can one shot some light Mechs in the MMO

Not nearly to the extent of World of Tanks. The point is you cant compare the two games outside of their pricing model.

[Escef]

As for one-shot kills, there are a few in TT battletech. Any weapon that does 12+ damage is a head capper. Hatchets or Triple Strength Myomer on mechs 60 tons and up (or 30 tonners and up with both), Gauss and Heavy Gauss rifles, AC20 type weapons, Heavy PPCs, clan ERPPCs, and a couple more if we go into advanced/experimental territory (which also brings in a host of special defenses as well). And even then, you still have to roll the magical boxcars (12 on 2 six sided dice) to pull it off.

The other day I took out a Hunchie by concentrating large lasers and AC5s on his cockpit. If you're really good (or you and your opponent are both fairly slow moving or stationary if you aren't) you can pick and choose what hit location you nail. Which is a really good argument for upping armor values in MWO. If you didn't, head capping would be stupid common.

Also, to those talking about the doubling of armor versus the tripling of rates of fire, this is a good reason for heat dissipation being nerfed the way it is. Once your heat scale is near the top you can't just fire as fast as your weapons recycle anymore, not unless you find being a stationary target in a firefight acceptable.

EDIT: Also, before I forget, there is also the possibility of a through armor crit taking out one's engine. That issue becomes even more random if one uses the "floating crit" rule.

Edited by Escef, 14 February 2013 - 08:18 AM.

[Khobai]

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Also, to those talking about the doubling of armor versus the tripling of rates of fire, this is a good reason for heat dissipation being nerfed the way it is. Once your heat scale is near the top you can't just fire as fast as your weapons recycle anymore, not unless you find being a stationary target in a firefight acceptable.

Which is why most people use SRM6s. Because they do massive damage for relatively little heat. All the current heat system accomplishes is punishing you for not gaming the system and using the most efficient damage:heat weapons.

[Black Ivan]

The Trial Mech show how bad PGI's game design is. Many of them ade sense in CBT, but don't work under PGIs game design.
They are death traps to new pilots..

[Sean Kye]

They should be worse. What do you think this is? A charity? It's a free to play. You wanna rock? That costs extra.

[Khobai]

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They should be worse. What do you think this is? A charity? It's a free to play. You wanna rock? That costs extra.

Yeah trial mechs should be worse than stock mechs but stock mech configurations shouldnt be as bad as they are.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Khobai, on 14 February 2013 - 07:01 AM, said:

In tabletop, center torso gets hit on a roll of 2 or 7. Chance to roll a 2 is about 2.8%. Chance to roll a 7 is about 16.67%. So your overall chance to hit someone in the center torso is about 19.5%.

How often does someone's center torso get hit in MWO? I will tell you right now it's WAY more than 19.5% (probably more like 50%-70%). Center torsos in MWO are drastically underarmored. Not just by a little either, but by A LOT.

I really don't think it would be unreasonable to shift say 20% of the armor from the arms/legs to the center torso/side torsos to help alleviate that imbalance somewhat.



Correct. They doubled armor.

But they also tripled the rate of fire, added aiming which accelerates mech death by 3-5 times faster, and they scaled up the size of hit locations on larger mechs which further increases the probability of hitting those locations.

Double armor is just not adequate enough to keep up. And the problem is going to get far worse with the introduction of Clan tech because Clan weapons do massive pinpoint damage. You'll see Clan mechs with 3-4 Clan ER PPCs that will absolutely wreck face. That's 45-60 damage in one location from across the map!

So far, imo, double armor has been enough to keep up.

As for Clan Mechs...we've no idea how they're going to be introduced and what form they're going to take yet, so trying to argue from a point of supposition as if it is fact at this point isn't worth arguing.