55 replies to this topic

[Wraith05]

Protoculture, on 15 February 2013 - 05:21 AM, said:

That's what I want. A clear Yes or No so I can make a decision based on facts instead of speculation.




Thanks for the information. I'll take you at your word, I removed the quotes. That's very depressing and, in my opinion, a very stupid move on their part; I hope they will reconsider.

EDIT: At the very least they need to give people the ability to opt out. Most people won't and will probably still queue for anything (of course this still hurts the game becasue of newbies getting stomped but whatever).

I've seen this mistake made in countless games over time, so I'll repeat something I stated to devs of a different failed mech-based title: Give people choices not mandates!!

EDIT 2: I think that sums up the whole point of what I'm getting at, so I added it as TL;DR for the whole thing.

I think it's a good idea since with the ELO system it should effectivly match you up with solo players most of the time around your skill level or match you against groups the ELO system feels you stand a chance against.

It will also allow people that group in 2 or 3 or even 4 to not wait forever for a game, fill in their ranks and the enemy ranks with players that should stand a good chance and provide a variety of mechs, team setups and players.

So in essence Solo queue is a win/lose situation where ELO is a win/win. ELO should be better for this game than a solo queue only system ever would be.

[peve]

No need for that.

All you need is skill-based matchmaking.

[Elandyll]

That's the thing and the "dirtyest" secret of MWO:

The game and Premades NEED solo Puggers, whereas the Puggers do NOT Need Premades.

The thing is, just like it was said before, the game does not have (and may never have) the massive population needed to make a three Queue system work (1 Pug only, 1 Premade only, 1 either way). Case in point, if you had a "Pre made only" queue, you would need to face off with a premade of similar or equal numbers, and similar or equal Mech classes, not to include the ELO system which would then also look for opponents of similar or equal ELO ratings.

What is imo far more realistic to ask the devs is this:

It has been admitted (including by Garth) that Pre-mades have a definite advantage in many ways over non Pre-mades.

The very least the matchmaker could do is
1) Enforce the 4 man limit and prevent sync drops (with a hard limit on 1 premade team per drop). If a group of 8 wants to play together, you can stil try to click at the same time, but this time the best you can hope for is to face each other, which should be fine. For more, go to the 8v8 queue. Not enough? How about following your own advice and inviting Solo players, eventually with an ingame tool that hopefully will be made available by PGI (how about a right click "invite to group /make friend directly on the final scoreboard?)

2) Make so that if one 4x premade is dropping in a match, the MM will then pick another similar pre-made (+ / - 1 player) for the opposite side and -THEN- fill in with Lone wolves to balance it out.


Wouldn't that just MAKE SENSE?


P.S for the ELO people: Guess what the difference between an average ELO team of 8xLone Wolves and an average ELO team made of 4x average ELO premade and 4x Lone Wolves?
Team #2 is partly organized on VOIP and can react much faster, not even considering the possibility of a competitive team that drops with a well designed roster of Mechs intended to work together from the get go (e.g. DDC + RVN-3L + mix of Phract/ Pult, Stalker...)

ELO in and off itself is a poor man's crutch that will do little to nothing to smooth the problem with orgnaized premades. It will just diminish the complete blow outs of new players in trial mechs being rolled over by an opposing team of experienced lone wolves.

Edited by Elandyll, 15 February 2013 - 08:26 AM.

[Mystere]

No. I like being the PUG that spanks the big bad boys.

[RedMercury]

A lot of stuff which makes great sense don't see the light of day around here. Color me cynical.

[JeepStuff]

Elandyll, on 15 February 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

The game and Premades NEED solo Puggers, whereas the Puggers do NOT Need Premades.

That's interesting, I never thought of it that way. I pug 100% of the time and I'm against splitting pugs and premades into separate queues. Still, this thought of yours is interesting, and true I think.

Elandyll, on 15 February 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

P.S for the ELO people: Guess what the difference between an average ELO team of Lone Wolves and an average ELO team made of 4x average ELO premade and 4x Lone Wolves?
Team #2 is organized on VOIP and can react much faster, not even considering the possibility of a competitive team that drops with a well designed team of Mechs intended to work together from the get go (e.g. DDC + RVN-3L + mix of Phract/ Pult, Stalker...)

ELO in and off itself is a poor man's crutch that will do little to smooth the problem with orgnaized premades. It will just diminish the complete blow outs of new players in trial mechs being rolled over by an opposing team of experienced lone wolves.

I hope this isn't true. I think I read somewhere that sophisticated Elo systems will weight a premade differently -- add some modifier to their average rating, so that a premade with a lower Elo rating will actually drop with pugs who have higher Elo ratings, to sort of offset the fact that the premade has an advantage. If it's possible to implement something like this, and have it work well, then I'm totally 100% against splitting the player database or even enforcing a bunch of rules on how different sides drop together. To me, if Elo can make all things equal (and account for premades vs pugs just by offsetting ratings and whatnot), then I would prefer a system with no drop restrictions and no split queues and where Elo just makes everything work.

If that's naive (and it could very well be naive), then AFTER we see how Elo works, and AFTER we identify its shortcomings, and AFTER they try (and possibly fail) to fix those shortcomings, THEN I think the devs should consider drop limitations such as the ones you propose, or maybe splitting the queues. I just think it's way too early for that. Let's see how Elo shakes out first, and give them some time to tweak it to see if it can save the day all by itself.

[Faldrin]

Apoc1138, on 15 February 2013 - 06:27 AM, said:

does battlefield 3 have a solo only queue? or are people free to use TS and join the same team on the same server over there as well?

just asking

Some crazy reason why it works in them games is this and its rather simple for people like you but still seem to forget and that is.... respawn! These games allow you to respawn as soon or very soon after you die rather than make you wait 3-4mins before you can fight again and that is if you leave game straight after.
But I would not want respawn's in this game so they need to have 100% team balance in a game like this more for that simple reason!

[Zolaz]

Protoculture, on 15 February 2013 - 04:11 AM, said:

I have this post in the upcoming Ask the Devs.

There is no proof, but I suspect they will answer questions with the most likes or restatements of the same thing, because that seems to be what they have done in the past.

So, if you would like to see a separate Lonewolf/Solo/PUG queue please show your support and Like my post or simply post your own identical question.

The more the merrier.

TL;DR - Dear PGI, Give people choices not mandates.

Stiff upper lip Old Chap.

[Joseph Mallan]

Protoculture, on 15 February 2013 - 05:21 AM, said:

I've seen this mistake made in countless games over time, so I'll repeat something I stated to devs of a different failed mech-based title: Give people choices not mandates!!

Would you opt out of the Battle for Luthien? You have a choice. You can be a part of a Premade team (or a House Unit), Be an affiliated PUG or a Lone Wolf. As a Lone Wolf You will be the last kid picked for some matches.

Remember with Choice comes Consequences. Choice: Lone Wolf, Consequence: last player base to fill a drop. least assistance with R&R. Least selection of available Mechs(already a part of TT).

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 15 February 2013 - 08:40 AM.

[Protoculture]

EJT, on 15 February 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

That's interesting, I never thought of it that way. I pug 100% of the time and I'm against splitting pugs and premades into separate queues. Still, this thought of yours is interesting, and true I think.

I simply want the OPTION to not play with pre-mades, at all (in my case, ever).

I'm not trying to force my view or play-preference on anyone else, which is exactly what other proposed and current systems do.

Joseph Mallan, on 15 February 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

Would you opt out of the Battle for Luthien? You have a choice. You can be a part of a Premade team (or a House Unit), Be an affiliated PUG or a Lone Wolf. As a Lone Wolf You will be the last kid picked for some matches.

Remember with Choice comes Consequences. Choice: Lone Wolf, Consequence: last player base to fill a drop. least assistance with R&R. Least selection of available Mechs(already a part of TT).

This sounds like some kind TT fantasy/theorycrafting. I have no idea what you're saying. There is no R&R and considering how unpopular it is, I doubt it comes back.

This is not TT/Paper RPG game. They have already made DRASTIC changes in an attempt to enhance game play (double armor anyone?). I expect that will continue.

Zolaz, on 15 February 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

Stiff upper lip Old Chap.

I would play on a team with Winston Churchill

[Apoc1138]

Faldrin, on 15 February 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

Some crazy reason why it works in them games is this and its rather simple for people like you but still seem to forget and that is.... respawn! These games allow you to respawn as soon or very soon after you die rather than make you wait 3-4mins before you can fight again and that is if you leave game straight after.
But I would not want respawn's in this game so they need to have 100% team balance in a game like this more for that simple reason!

no, BF3 servers can very quickly become one sided stomp fests too, but you can just swap server and try again, just like it only takes a few minutes to complete a match and re-launch with a whole new group of people in this game too

I take my licks in BF3 and go back for more... I do the same in MWO...

[RedMercury]

You and PGI also have a choice. Make the game friendly for newbies, or have no game to play.

[jakucha]

They've said multiple times they don't want to separate the community, so I don't know if it will happen.

[Steven Dixon]

Protoculture, on 15 February 2013 - 05:21 AM, said:

That's what I want. A clear Yes or No so I can make a decision based on facts instead of speculation.

Thanks for the information. I'll take you at your word, I removed the quotes. That's very depressing and, in my opinion, a very stupid move on their part; I hope they will reconsider.

It is pretty unlikely (though not impossible) they will give you a yes or no answer because it isn't quite as simple as that. Headlessnewt is quite correct, the whole 'we'll look into it' thing is code for 'good luck' along the lines of when a parent tells a child 'I'll think about it'. Their are two reasons that they didn't say no.

The first is they don't want anyone to make a rash decision, if they say no some people will simply quit the game. This isn't necessarily fair because they are trying to add other things into the game to fix the problem (such as the new matchmaker). This could potentially help alleviate the problem by only matching inexperienced players with each other or completely incompetent groups, we'll see. The matchmaker will be a work in progress for a long time even after its released.

The other reason is that nothing is set in stone, if they feel that the community is really against something and their solutions aren't working they will try other things even if it might take quite a while (including opt out options).

Posts like this are actually a decent way to go about it, you stated a preference and didn't use insults or hyperbole. Another way to to create a detailed, rational argument for adding an 'opt out' option with pros and cons in the Suggestion forum. Don't worry if it doesn't get a lot of hits, most devs try not to base decisions on a popularity contest because forum popularity isn't really representative of community popularity. Virtually all threads in the Suggestion Forums are read by the devs or a representative (like Garth) who can forward things to the devs. Keep in mind this is a business, if you treat your posts like a business document that is logical and well argued it will have more impact than a rant.

[Padic]

I solo queue (almost) all the time, and I do not think I prefer a world where I would never get placed against pre-mades. I like seeing strategies, tactics and clever builds being used to their full effectiveness (even when its against me).

Standards of coordination will always form in premades first and disseminate to solo players over time, and I don't want to be isolated from the centers of coordination just to avoid being stomped by an excellent pre-made every once in a while.

One change that I do think would help the ratios of pubstompers in the real world would be to allow 5-7 man groups drop into the 8v8 queue, effectively turning it into an "up to 8 vs up to 8" queue. I mean, I'm sure most groups wouldn't drop at a disadvantage into the 8v8 queue, but it would at least take away the excuse "we had 8, but one guy logged off for the night, so we HAD to synch drop to play together"

[Chunkylad]

Honestly, anymore I don't complain about randoms. Gives me an additional challenge to carry. I would post my screenie again, but I feel I have already overposted it by using it twice elsewhere. When you have more than double the damage than the rest of your team combined and still win, you know what to strive for every game.

Edited by Chunkylad, 15 February 2013 - 09:34 AM.

[maXe72]

Johnny Morgan, on 15 February 2013 - 04:51 AM, said:

I PUG a lot, more lately as I don't have the time to drop with people on TS.

We do not need a separate queue, we just need the skill based match making and some better drop controls/filters.

THATs excactly how i feel.
IMo the game itself pisxxxx me really off, because in 9 of 10 games i end up gaming against an skilled and organized enemy Team.
As iam new to this game, how should i get better when it rains LRM but i cant lock on an enemy because they use ECM ?

Thats just a great dissapointment...

So as new players like me are getting frustrated by the Gameplay in PUG, why should they stay with the game?

Edited by maXe72, 15 February 2013 - 09:59 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Protoculture, on 15 February 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

This sounds like some kind TT fantasy/theorycrafting. I have no idea what you're saying. There is no R&R and considering how unpopular it is, I doubt it comes back.

This is not TT/Paper RPG game. They have already made DRASTIC changes in an attempt to enhance game play (double armor anyone?). I expect that will continue.

We'll have to wait and see. Even if R&R don't come back Lone Wolves have made a choice to buck the system and play macho style. So you pick the hard road then complain cause you got bad shocks!

[Panzerjotun]

For those of you that may be curious but not ready to commit I would be happy to team with anyone. I understand the many reasons people PUG (I did it for months and months) but I will never understand why some wear it like a badge of honor. Playing with a team (even a casual one) is so much more rewarding.

[Nightcrept]

General Pace, on 15 February 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

For those of you that may be curious but not ready to commit I would be happy to team with anyone. I understand the many reasons people PUG (I did it for months and months) but I will never understand why some wear it like a badge of honor. Playing with a team (even a casual one) is so much more rewarding.

In my case I just don't like playing with a team. I don't know how many others feel the same. I see and deal with so many people on a day to day basis that I just want to come home and play alone in my giant stompy robot. I know I am on a team but I am still more alone then if I were to join a pre-made team and or be on ts etc. I deal more damage then I take and generally help my team out. But i can do what I want and I don't have to answer for my actions. In other words I am alone and can blow off steam from a hard days work without having to be social.