57 replies to this topic

[Tesunie]

Honestly, I don't understand the big problem. Yes boating them can be a problem, but it also gives them a lot of weaknesses in exchange. I agree that we could use more maps that vary more, and larger maps. personally, I find the boat build to either be killer, or completely ineffective. They are a great risk build and in their area of expertise they can be a large threat. I see it as more of a challenge personally.

I'm also more of a lore kinda person. SRMs work like how they are described in the book and how I understand they work in TT. I don't mind some small tweaks for the game version, but I'd hate to see them be completely different because some people aren't happy with it. I actually find SRMs to feel right and seem to work as they should. My opinion, I know. But it's how I feel about issue.

[hercules1981]

M3atloaf, on 15 February 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:

TL:DR - I'm constantly out of position and have SRM cats and Stalkers in my face 1-2 shotting me all the time and I don't like it. Please nerf the game so I don't have to learn skill, placement, strategy, or tactics. Removing heat would be nice too as they always seem to kill me while I'm overheated from shooting them.

Dude this is a great couple of statements u got hear. This whole topic should be removed by the devs right away. I think it is the worst statement about weapons I have ever read on these forums give Srms a min range. Haaaaaa. I do kinda agree with a splash damage to yourself if u r up in ther face, I bet it will happen b4 the game is done. And this is coming from a mech pilot that doesn't even own a single cat and am not to much of a fan of stalkers either.

Edited by hercules1981, 15 February 2013 - 05:11 PM.

[Solis Obscuri]

Because a weapon that's useless past 130m really needs a 180m minimum range...

[Tesunie]

Actually, most of the problems you are complaining about will be solved once collisions get back into the game. Those face huggers are going to ram you, and fall over unable to shoot. SRMs aren't really the problem, it's the lack of collisions in the game right now.

[Ivory Spider]

Radical eliminator, on 15 February 2013 - 07:56 AM, said:

Problems with your reasoning:

* They are much faster then competing mechs
* You don't know there there until they suddenly are and have a lock, but by then it will be too late!
* Current maps and LOS mechanics force you to be rather close, near their max striking range anyway.

I am sure that a well tuned and skilled long range team with communications and proper scouts will defeat a straightforward SRM rush team. But you have to admit that is not the kind of play most of us will see in this game online.

Ok I see this is a topic you feel on strongly but I have to disagree with you on a few key points and actually I will use one of your own statements to support what I will say. I in no way am trying to be insulting and just take my statements as what they are.

*I can't confirm or refute your first claim as I have not experimented with the speeds myself on heavy mechs but I know for a fact that both mediums and lights can far out-class any speed a catapult or stalker can do. Judging by your anger at the speeds these mechs can move and the fact that you can't run away from them leads me to believe that you might be playing assault mechs or slow moving heavy mechs. In that case it is imperative to know your reach and not over-extend yourself beyond receiving help from team-mates should you meet an enemy mech that could destroy you.

*You seem to be comparing the SRM builds to some sort of ninja that can appear anywhere on the battlefield from hiding on a whim. In fact it requires pilot skill to go un-noticed moving up the battlefield and not be noticed, his lying in wait for you shows patience and startegy, a strategy that would be null and void were you to not take the path he assumed you would and not walk into his thretening range. neither dominatn SRM build can equip an ECM to help them hide so they must rely solely on terrain and flanking maneouvers to close the distance without being spotted/shot at. If they are hidden by an ECM it's because they have another ally with them to grant them it's stealthing abilities and this shows teamwork, something that is encouraged in the game to give your team an advantage. You also mentioned them haveing a lock on you in your second statement, I believe in that statement you meant to infer that they simply had you in their sights and would begin firing. if that was not what you were trying to say and in fact you belive that the SRM have any sort of lock on capability you would only be half right. The SSRM or streaks do lock on but have a smaller total damage as they are only firing two missiles at 2.5 dmg each instead of the common 6 missiles at 2.5 dmg each that comes from the SRM boats. SRM are a dumb-fire fire that requires aim and an amount of precision to hit with an effective volley if the target is not point blank.

*I couldn't disagree with you more on the fact you belive the current maps promote close range and make it difficult to fire at range. In the forest colony maps if you value ranged fights take the river side, it's primarily open terrain with the exception of a couple rocks and the broken ship. Caustic valley is an almost exclusively long range map with wide open areas and very litle cover in between them. the city map is arguably the map that favors close range people the most but even it has it's open areas, try taking the waterways below and avoid the tight city streets if you fear close range mechs. The snow map is a good mix of cover and open terrain, look around and you are bound to find areas where it would be dangerous for a close range mech to attempt to cross. Try thinking from an enemies perspective "what path would I NOT want to take if I was a close range fighter" put yourself in those areas to give yourself the advantage. The new map that will be coming out soon by all accounts sounds like it will favor long range mechs.

*You mentioned in your orginal post that the SRM have a greater damage than the LRM. This is only partially true. While the SRM do more damage per missile (2.5 vs 1.8) they max out at 6 missiles per SRM pod. This amounts to 15 damage if they all hit the same body part on the enmy mech, this is spread to multiple body parts if the missile spread is non favourable for your opponent. Starting at the LRM 10 it does 18 damage if all missiles hit and the LRM 20 does 36 damage if all missiles hit. Ultimately volleys of LRM will be more dangerous if not avoided or dealt with properly. I don't understand why you believe a missile with a larger warhead would require an arming time for the sole fact that it has a larger warhead than something that does have an arming time. Arming times are a design of the missile and it makes no sense that a manufacturer would put on arming time on a SRM.

*I will concede that if a mech were to fire it's missiles while being point blank to an enemy mech would the explosion not harm the mech that fired the missiles? Possibly, this is true, but if you've seen an RPG fire the warhead actually has a directional charge that explodes outwards towards it's target. If applied to a missile perheps the resulting explosion would be so directionally forced away from the firing mech it could be negligible damage that would peel paint more than hurt the structure of your 80 ton war machine.

* So to your own statement "I am sure that a well tuned and skilled long range team with communications and proper scouts will defeat a straightforward SRM rush team.". I believe this to be entirely true, and this of itself promotes teamwork, communication and strategy which I belive to be the core to winning any match against any enemy loadout. In essence you are saying here that teamwork will trump team makeup or mech builds, this is the core of the game and to me states that the game is balanced. Likewise a co-ordinated short range mech team should easily beat an un-organized long range team. I know in a lot if not most matches it seems your team is directionless and you can feel like they are controlled by monkeys but that's just the luck of the draw when playing a game with randomized teams. Try whenever possible to make friends and join as a pre-made lance and you should notice your win/loss ratio to tip in your favor. The day a weapon loadout will win vs any organized team is the day it could be considered OP and broken, the SRM issue is not this case.

All said and done it all comes down to your startegies, tactics and teamwork. Communication is a huge help aswell. learning your playstyle and building your mech to compliment it will go a long way to helping you out on the battlefield aswell. be aware of your surroundings, play the field to your adavantage, stay in the open if your long range or get in the thick stuff for cover if you are close range. I for one have no problems handling and adjusting my strategies to deal with closer range builds, as I do with LRM or PPC builds I must adjust my tactics on the fly to survive and win. Stay close to teammates and assist eachother, focus a target to kill him faster and then move on to the next mech together as a team. Don't lone wolf out on the battlefield unless you have a means of escaping a sticky situation. Assault mechs are so big they seem like they should be the one man armies but in fact they are the ones most in need of ally support to keep them from being harrassed to death.

Lastly I would say that by making this thread you were hoping to sway peoples minds to hear your opinion and hopefully agree with you to see a change however your posts have all been very forcefully worded and in many of them you have insulted people who hold a different opinion than your own. If you truly want people to listen and for this thread to be more than just another "hate-fest" of insults and threats might I sugest you keep polite and both speak and listen with understanding. If someone responds with a hate-post to your own post rather than get angry and continue the fight simply ignore him as spam and only acknowledge and speak with the true posters who wish to speak about your topic. I mean no insult with this, I'm just attempting to give friendly advice on how to best handle your topic/thread and come out with proper opinions and discussion rather than loads of hate-mail.

Best of luck on the battlefield.

[LunaticWoda]

I'm going to play devils advocate for both sides...

SRM's are mean pure and simple calling them "mediocre" is pleading ignorance.. I personally run a Centurion with 1 small 1 med laser and 3 SRM 6. I walk up behind a stalker or anyone for that matter and its a matter of 4-5 volleys will sack just about anyone.

On the flip side, If I see a Catapult/Centurion/Stalker heading my way I am checking load outs allowing yourself to eat those volleys is pilot error. Maybe the PPC comment was a little naive but he has a point

[Postumus]

Theres nothing wrong with SRMs, and there's nothing wrong with streaks or PPCs for that matter, but I do agree that there should be more downside than there is currently to taking more than say, 3 of the same weapon on a build, with the exception of lasers, which are more or less balanced by heat. In the short range game, < 270 meters, SRM boats are king. And unfortunately, the only "fast" mechs in the game right now are lights and a couple mediums (Cicada and one Centurion variant), and the maps are all tiny. Sorry, but 60 KM/h isn't fast, but it's pretty simple for heavies and below to do at least 80, which should let you outmaneuver splatcats and such some of the time. Still, I'd withhold your judgement until at least the Alpine map gets introduced, as it is apparently much larger,and will allow for a greater degree of maneuvering and long range engagement.

Edited by Postumus, 15 February 2013 - 10:56 PM.

[Prophet of Entropy]

srms are mean weapons but hardly game breakingly so. splat cats can be tough opponents, but i more often then not see them sucking and dieing like everyone else. i fear no 1 mech comming at me, its 3 or 4 that makes my day not so fun.

people boat because using 1 type of weapon makes fighting with/how that weapon works more effective. you know what? that was inevitible when they gave us the ability to aim where our weapons hit.

oh and SRMs are still supposed to be guided in TT, why they can have artemis. SRMs just arent a problem, not any more then a 60+ tube lrm boat.

[Lycrin]

Umm... no....

SRMs are just that, short range missiles. Nerfing them by adding a minimum range is just plain dumb. They can't even go past 270M so why nerf them at all. You suspect a mech that has SRMs or is really SRM reliant simply keep your distance and use weapons that surpass that range if you got 'em.

And to point out something LRMs are technically more powerful, they simply just have a larger and much wider cluster effect than SRMs as they should. Just try LRMing with both Artemis and TAG in use and you'll see what I mean.

Edited by Lycrin, 16 February 2013 - 09:53 AM.

[IceSerpent]

Radical eliminator, on 15 February 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

People seem to judge anyone that proposes change as someone incapable of dealing with things described. If i think the current implementation does not make much sense and is overpowered, it does not mean i never kill or win. My observations are just that, seeing how effective they are on most maps, often leading to 8-0 to 8-2 kill-scores when there are several SRM boats. But in a half decent team I will often end near the top and sometimes even get several kills (plenty of matches without however).

Your observations about SRMs being effective are correct, but your conclusion that SRMs are OP is wrong. Traditionally a good loadout in MW is a mix of energy and ammo-based weapons with roughly uniform range. A full energy boat is usually less effective due to heat issues. In MWO ballistic weapons (and PPCs, as they use the same mechanics) suffer from convergence problem and are less effective than they should be. The only exception is Cat K2 due to its ballistic mounts being very close to the center of the mech, and it's not completely immune either. Guided missiles are effectively countered by current ECM implementation (unless you pack ECM yourself), so those are also less effective than they should be. This leaves lasers + SRMs combo as only effective build, especially given that all current maps are fairly short range ones.

There's nothing wrong with SRMs (or A1 Cats for that matter), problem is that loadouts that should be viable alternatives are not as viable as they are supposed to be, because of issues with underlying game mechanics.

Quote

1. Mechs are hard to make out against the background (on most maps, even at short range) and at long ranges impossible to spot without fuzzy thermal view. On top of this, quite some maps require constant heat view, just to have a slight idea of your enemy position.

2. Lag causing sliding mechs at non-constant speeds and in impossible directions (sometimes sideways) make it extra hard to get a good sense of what is moving where and how fast and act accordingly. Making sense of bad data causes misses and delays appropriate action. Radar would help to compensate that.

This is what makes the game interesting - targeting is not supposed to be easy, neither is scouting.

[MagicHamsta]

You must be new here, SRMs already cause splash damage to the mech if it be used at too close a range.

Me has killed a few SRM cats by purposefully causing them to shoot their own box off. (using me own more useless arm as the trade off.)

Meanwhile, lasers and ballistics won't cause self damage at such range.

[Jaxwen]

I disagree that there should be a minimum range for the SRM weapons systems. But I do agree there should be splash damage that also causes those splat-cats to kill themselves with that massive point blank alpha strike.

[skullman86]

Honestly, self damage at short range should probably be applied to a lot of weapons. I think that and collisions would go a long way toward improving the way people form up to fight.

-SRM and SSRM are powerful enough weapons that they should probably have this kind of limitation

-PPCs could deal self damage and the EMP effect at short range or give both versions a minimum range where they cannot even be fired (to prevent shorting the mech out)

-Heavier ballistics could deal self damage at hugging distance

-Lasers could increase the user's heat at a higher rate

Edited by skullman86, 16 February 2013 - 12:17 PM.

[Donas]

One thing to consider..

The type of armor that these weapons( the ballistic and missile ones) are trying to defeat is significant enough that the nature of the rounds and warheads being used could necessitate the almost exclusive use of armor penetrating shaped charges like HEAT rounds. These munitions would have splash damage, but it would nearly all be withing the internal structure of the mech. Any splash damage the would exist on the outside of a mech would be minor, akin to a brief blast from a flamer, certainly not enough to damage a nearby mech.

If they are in fact using HE rounds, than splash damage would effect nearby mechs of any type. ( A mechanic that to my understanding is only demonstrated ingame currently by spread weapons like LBX and missile weapons.)

[blinkin]

Donas, on 16 February 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

If they are in fact using HE rounds, than splash damage would effect nearby mechs of any type. ( A mechanic that to my understanding is only demonstrated ingame currently by spread weapons like LBX and missile weapons.)

please do not make srm HE weapons. i do not want to sift through the endless "srm is OP" posts that would result. i wouldn't have to hit light mechs anymore to be able to kill them. damage would be done to most components on a mech that was hit. i would likely strip all of the armor off an atlas within 4-5 volleys of my 4xsrm6+artemis.

blast radius would stop most of the face hugging agreed, but it would also make srm by far without any debate the most powerful weapons in the game. light mechs would be made almost entirely obsolete. i don't want the field flooded with any more ignorant srm cat pilots than we already have.

[Donas]

Agreed. I am not in favor of blast radius, nor of incidental splash damage. For clarification, the 'blast radius mechanic' I was referencing was just the normal existing missile spread.

Edited by Donas, 16 February 2013 - 01:29 PM.

[blinkin]

Donas, on 16 February 2013 - 01:27 PM, said:

Agreed. I am not in favor of blast radius, nor of incidental splash damage. For clarification, the 'blast radius mechanic' I was referencing was just the normal existing missile spread.

this was more directed at those who think adding blast radius is somehow a nerf. in most games i am pretty sure it is usually considered a buff.

[Donas]

For sure. And a sizeable buff at that.