19 replies to this topic

[Aggy]

So, pretty fresh to the game if that's not obvious. I'm learning the game in a Raven 3L (which helps in not dying and the terrible aim I'm slowly working on), but...a few questions.

When someone says "scout", what am I supposed to do? If I'm not the only ECM, I run up front and try to tag the targets, but do I stay up front and try and keep something tagged (usually resulting in my sudden death even when I try to dodge and weave), or run back to the group and not die? If I'm the only ECM, I usually try to park my butt behind the friendly neighbourhood fatlas and cover the group with it, but even then, I don't know for sure what I should be doing.

If I'm engaged with another light, should I just keep doing the circle-SSRM thing like they are? If I try to run back to the group, I just get shot up by the chasing light.

Thanks!

[qki]

Forget scouting, plain and simple. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out where to find the enemy.

"Scouting" is one of the most useless thing to be doing in this game ("herp derp, i'm scouting!").

Look at it this way:

Heavies, and especially assaults, are the backbone of your army. They will be doing most of the heavy lifting. Mediums are like smaller, weaker assaults - they don't have the armour, or the firepower of their big brothers. What they have, is mobility - and unless you use that to your advantage, you are essentially piloting half an assault 'mech.

To use greater mobility, you have to apply your firepower where it matters.

A light 'mech, is that concept taken to the extreme - the most mobility with the least firepower.
The word you are looking for is not "scout" - it's "harass". Pop out behind (or on the flank), and get their attention. Make them come after you, and disappear. think of it as an equation.

in an 8v8 scenario, if you make 3 enemies come after you, the fight on the front lines is 7v5 in favour of your team.
The biggest downer here is the fact, that most people you will be playing with are ********, and will never take advantage of the opportunities you create for them.


Also - what are you running on your raven? If the answer is something else than 295XL with near-max armour, 3ML (or2ML and TAG) and 2SSRM2, then you're doing it wrong. Just for reference.

[ElLocoMarko]

When I ask to scout I mostly just want to know where the bulk of the enemy are. But there are C-Bills in it for you if you get a spot bonus which is achieved if you get a target box on the enemy even for a moment. Tag to defeat ECM or should they be without, just try to get a perpendicular cruise. The only reason to maintain tag is if you have LRM that are within about 1000m and can fire on them. In the early parts of the engagement that LRM boat is usually outside of that max range of 1000m.

As a first tactic I would say pop into view and try to target a few of them - perhaps through TAG - (without slowing down) and then retreat back to friendlies. Those tags should turn into spot bonuses. If you get in a circle fight, you are right. Most likely you will have to finish it.

[Sunnova]

A big thing about being a scout is knowing where the enemy group is. When you start the match, both sides do not know where each other are heading. One side maybe heading around left while the other heading around right. It's up to a scout like you to quickly run around the map, spot the enemy group and inform your team (through locking on or chat). For a veteran scout pilot, all they just need is a thermal reading of a lone or few mechs to determine the direction of the enemy group. Informing your team of the enemy's position will not just get rid of the "Fog of War" confusion but also allow your team to position and act according to the enemy.

Then there's the harassment job of a scout. This is riskier and requires you to go closer to the enemy. As a scout you can't be expecting to kill like a heavy or assault. Rather you job would be to distract the enemy and get their focus off your team. A good example would be against snipers or LRM boats. When they're focusing on your team, it's extremely devastating. As a scout, you would want to run and attack them. Circle, figure 8, jump, attack, do anything to get their attention away from your team and on to you.
Another type would be instead of harassing a lone mech, it would be against a group of mechs. This is much more dangerous but sometimes much more rewarding especially against flankers.

Scouts can also kill other scouts, especially the SSRM Commando or Raven 3L. It sometimes may seem strange to prioritize killing an enemy scout versus an atlas or LRM boat, but you can expect enemy scouts to be doing the exact same thing as you thus the urgency to get rid of them. As a raven 3L, you can really kill enemy scouts with your combined lasers and SSRMs. Just keep circling while maintaining the SSRM lock. If you are fighting another ECM scout, counter ECM them and let those missiles fly. If two enemy mechs fight you and none have ECM, fight at your own discretion. If two or more fight against you and at least one has ECM, retreat back to your team.

Edited by Sunnova, 15 February 2013 - 09:55 AM.

[ArcDemon]

On smaller maps (most of them right now) you don't really need to be 'scouting' in the sense of determining the enemies location, that is usually pretty obvious. On Caustic it can be useful to know where the enemy is early since there is a lot of ground to be covered.

However 'scouting' to R-spot targets is still very useful if you have teammates with LRMs. If you don't want to be shot while spotting targets don't be seen. Enemies rarely engage mechs they don't even know are there.

Mechs only have front facing radar and front facing cockpits. You already have ECM so that front facing radar is usually useless in detecting you. That leaves only the enemy eyeballs to detect you. Flank the enemy and use cover. If you can get into a position to see them without seeing you (so slightly behind them to the far left or right, or just behind them period) you can spot them for LRM strike while the rest of your team is behind cover. This is effective in stand offs like around the broken ship in Forest or a hill stand off on Frozen. Once both sides are in steady contact with each other this kind of spotting won't matter so you should engage, your ECM will help disrupt the enemies ability to coordinate.

[StalaggtIKE]

Aggy, on 15 February 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

So, pretty fresh to the game if that's not obvious. I'm learning the game in a Raven 3L (which helps in not dying and the terrible aim I'm slowly working on), but...a few questions.

When someone says "scout", what am I supposed to do? If I'm not the only ECM, I run up front and try to tag the targets, but do I stay up front and try and keep something tagged (usually resulting in my sudden death even when I try to dodge and weave), or run back to the group and not die? If I'm the only ECM, I usually try to park my butt behind the friendly neighbourhood fatlas and cover the group with it, but even then, I don't know for sure what I should be doing.

If I'm engaged with another light, should I just keep doing the circle-SSRM thing like they are? If I try to run back to the group, I just get shot up by the chasing light.

Thanks!

As a light, you never want to stand still. Fact is, most players use thermal vision, so they can see you even if you are using ECM. Your best bet is to run up ahead and see where the enemy is going, then regroup with your team and inform them. That's all that is necessary as most maps only consist of two highly utilized routes, very few teams straying from the norm. Once you see the enemy going one way, you can be 99% sure that's the route they're going to take. I recommend you use TAG only after both teams have "clashed" into battle. This way they are preoccupied. However before you do this you may need to focus on the enemy's light pilot first. Don't get to suckered into a SSRM circle, or "dance of death" as I call it. The dance of death works like this; the first to score a hit usually wins. That is if the enemy is a willing dance partner. Through experience you will get better at piloting and come up with superior maneuvers, instead of the dance to win light 1vs1 battles. For instance my RVN-3L carries 1xSRM6 and 1 xSSRM2. I a lot of times go from a circle to a figure 8 to shake the opponent, allowing for SRM hit. I would give more tips, however I find these 1on1 battles to be situational; based on the pilot you're facing plus the current battlefield layout. More than anything stay mobile and keep practicing.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 15 February 2013 - 10:26 AM.

[tuokaerf]

The most useful light mechs (to me) are the ones who effectively disrupt the enemy's plan (which may be a loose term in some drops...) by doing the following:

1) Light harassment of slow mechs.

Doing this with some well placed shots will start beating up some critical areas of the big guys. In addition, every second that they're focusing on spinning around trying to find you, is an opportunity for a teammate with more armor and firepower to slug away at them. In addition, you can probably distract the other team's light or medium mechs away from a brawl.

2) Leading

This one can be harder since it requires some coordination from your teammates as well. If your team is set up in a good kill box, you need to convince your enemy to wander into it. By harassing the other team and pulling back towards the kill box, you can lead a number of mechs into it. All it takes is 2-4 to follow you and within under a minute the game is heavily in your favor, even if the smarter players on the other team hang back.

3) Base harassment

If you want to get an enemy moving some, go dink around on their base a bit. The key to this is to keep moving and bail at the right time. Sticking around will get you killed. While you're at it, on the way back, pot shot a few of the larger mechs as well. They'll think there's 3 of you running around instead of one and might be able to convince a few to go hunting instead of staying under cover.

[Docta Pain]

When you said you try to keep something TAG'd, this can be good for your LRM boats, but not good for your survivability if done early in a match. If you're focusing on this at the beginning of the match, it means 1) you've exposed yourself before the LRM boats you're "hoping" have your back can act on your targeting information and 2) you've exposed yourself while the enemy doesn't have anyone else to shoot at... so you've turned the first part of the match into a 1 on 8 scenario... never good for you're health. If you're want to assist your team by spotting/TAGing, you should peak-a-boo sporadically at the enemy using cover, this will allow your team to assess where the enemy formation is maneuvering. Once both sides' formations have progressed / taken up firing positions, then use probing / flanking maneuvers to make isolated wing-scouts / rear guards / overly-advanced units the team designated targets through TAG. Once again, TAG at the beginning of a match is not neccessarily useful because the long flight-times allow your enemy to take cover, and expose you before anyone is in place to back you up.

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[Gevurah]

TBH most good LRM boats already have TAG. The bad ones aren't worth spotting for.

As a scout the first useful thing you can do is avoid dying. Too many scouts attempt to be brawlers when they aren't. Some pack a big punch (Commandos running 2xSRM6, for instance), some can ppc snipe, Raven's are excellent 'light hunters'. But at the end of the day absolutely ZERO light mechs have stand off and trade capability.

So what does this mean?

1) Pack a fast engine and as many weapons as you can. Then use speed to your advantage. Hit and then run. Don't fall into the very obvious "hit and run in circles around the big fat atlas trap" as you will simply run into their field of fire and get blazed to death.

2) Use your superior mobility to retain cover, hug walls, corners, stay under overhangs, etc.

3) ECM is tremendously effective for lights and should be taken whenever possible.
- note, this eliminates all jenners. Jenners are great mechs but are harder to use effectively for new players. The remaining light mechs only have 1 variant per that supports ECM. Raven 3-L, Commando 2-D, and Spider 5-D.

4) Don't be an *****. 150 kph and ECM doesn't make you invulnerable. I've seen entirely too many light mech jocks run across an open killzone/field and get lit up like a christmas tree due to hubris or lack of intellect.

5) Spotting - use thermal - you can generally track targets further out. Communication is key, so either type really fast or run with a group/preform that you can use voice comms with. Use target ID's (A-H, located above targeted enemy) and grid ID's (F5,E6, etc). Example: "I have multiple heavies going E6."

6) When spotting, don't stand in the open long. Pop out, look, pop back.

7) once your team has engaged the enemy, you are not needed for spotting in most cases. This means you can do several things:
A) rushing through enemy lines to disrupt, shooting targets of opportunity
lend fire support to larger mechs, i.e. assisting teammates in downing targets
C) capturing objectives
D) doing things to be a nuisance.

Proper scouting is a difficult, thankless job. It requires effective use of cover, a good mech build, and lots of communication with your team.

[Aggy]

Thanks guys, all that has been incredibly helpful. I always disliked the "run ahead so we can shoot!" "Tactic" since that is what gets me killed most, but it felt like that was what was expected of me - in my head, better pilots just magically don't get sniped, I guess? I sort of have the dodge and weave mostly figured out - obviously getting caught on buildings means death. Other "trick" I picked up was letting myself cool down when running across fronts of mechs, then shooting them in the back...so I'm slowly learning. For every "good" fight there are still many bad ones, but as long as that ratio is improving, I guess that's all I can hope for.

The thermal vision as a spotting tactic is something I didn't think of at all though. I only turn it on in frozen city and river city night, but I'll definitely try to use it more - it makes too much sense.

For the record, I'm running the "standard" raven 3L - XL295, 2 ML, TAG, and 2 SSRMs. Only thing is I can't afford the double heat sinks yet. I also have a Raven 2x for unlocking that has my spare XL210, MLs, and either SRMs or SSRMs depending on what I'm feeling. For that one, I definitely feel the slowness dragging me down, but the extra lasers are kind of neat. Going to grab the 4x then work on finishing up those mechs.

[Kenyon Burguess]

take a beagle active (on any mech) and an LRM and go out a bit ahead of your friends and hit "R" on an enemy mech. that's all scouting is. you get credit for spotting it first, you get a few missle hits on it for the assist reward, and you let your friends finish it off. use rocks and reverse sides of hills to keep from getting pelted by return fire

[Buckminster]

Are you running with a team that is using voice chat? I've found that makes a big difference in what scouting is - as it's a lot easier to yell out "they're in lower city" than it is to try and type it. I also wouldn't worry as much about TAG if you aren't in a team - you could be leaving yourself exposed trying to light enemy mechs only to have your LRM team mates off doing something else.

But I've found the key to running light is in hit and run. If you are tying to focus on enemy mechs (especially TAG, which requires you to keep on target) you are leaving yourself exposed. As has been said - heavies and assaults are terrible at turning, so your best bet is to keep zipping around them. And don't just run in circles either - that's way too predictable and easy to counter. You are much better off running past, firing a salvo or two, and running off into cover.

[Gevurah]

One other supremely useful thing you can do that's a bit difficult but bears mentioning - kiting. You can basically get someone to chase you .... and have your teammates setup an appropriate ambush. I've eliminated many other light mechs in that fashion. 3 Assaults/Heavies waiting for you to drag an unsuspecting commando/raven pilot into their kill box is a heck of a surprise for them to come around a corner to.

[IceSerpent]

Aggy, on 15 February 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

When someone says "scout", what am I supposed to do?

"Scout" means "go find the main body of the opposing team and tell us their grid location".

Quote

If I'm the only ECM, I usually try to park my butt behind the friendly neighbourhood fatlas and cover the group with it, but even then, I don't know for sure what I should be doing.

Covering your team with ECM is pretty much the opposite of scouting - you stay with your team, try your best not to die, and take pot shots at the enemy if opportunity presents itself.

Quote

If I'm engaged with another light, should I just keep doing the circle-SSRM thing like they are? If I try to run back to the group, I just get shot up by the chasing light.

It's situational. If you decide to disengage, don't just run away in a straight line - zigzag (Raven has 120 degree torso twist, so you move at roughly 60 degree angles from your intended course in order to shoot at someone directly behind you) and use your torso twist to return fire.

[Ceesa]

At the start of a match, go to a spot on the map where you can see the enemy but stay out of range. Once you find them and report back which way (most maps have two main paths) they are going, go back to the rest of your team. Stay behind the heavies, let them take the first hits, and wait for the enemy lights to engage. Your job is to kill the enemy lights, and then you can focus on their heavies.

[mailin]

If you do get into a circle jerk with an enemy, hold your fire until your weapons will hit their back. Fewer hits will take them out that way. On Catapults, if you manage to get behind one, don't go for his center torso. Aim for the back of his right or left torso. Yes they are smaller to hit, but chances are that he may have ammo there, they generally have fewer armor points than the arms, and if you take out a side torso the corresponding arm goes with it.

Against LRM boats, if I can get behind them, really, really close, I try to time my weapons fire with their missile fire. LRMS can sometimes cover the sound of the weapons hitting them.

As far as scouting, always, always use cover, go in behind the enemy and call out their positions. DO NOT CAP immediately. Wait until the enemy is engaged and then go ahead and cap. I generally wait until BB says "Enemy Base Is Being Captured" three times and then I run off.

When TAGging, tag the enemy that you think the LRMS will be able to hit. Remember that the max range on LRMs is 1000m. Tagging a mech that's 1500m away from where your LRMS are does nothing, expect maybe make a noob waste missiles. Also, if you tag an enemy at the back of the group from behind, he'll have no idea that he's even been tagged. However, he will have a little '+' by his mech, which if any enemies see it will recognize it and begin to look for you. Tag the guys in the back and there's less chance of anyone noticing. Tag somebody in front and you can probably expect a pretty bad match. The only danger about tagging somebody in the back is that it gives the enemy AMS systems potentially enough time and space to work to completly eliminate your buddies' lrms. It's a risk that I feel is worth it. If no missiles are getting to him let your lrm boat know that.

[Koniving]

Aggy, on 15 February 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

So, pretty fresh to the game if that's not obvious. I'm learning the game in a Raven 3L (which helps in not dying and the terrible aim I'm slowly working on), but...a few questions.

When someone says "scout", what am I supposed to do? If I'm not the only ECM, I run up front and try to tag the targets, but do I stay up front and try and keep something tagged (usually resulting in my sudden death even when I try to dodge and weave), or run back to the group and not die? If I'm the only ECM, I usually try to park my butt behind the friendly neighbourhood fatlas and cover the group with it, but even then, I don't know for sure what I should be doing.

If I'm engaged with another light, should I just keep doing the circle-SSRM thing like they are? If I try to run back to the group, I just get shot up by the chasing light.

Thanks!

Once upon a time in closed beta, scouting was one of the most useful things that could be done in the game. Also one of the better paying things.

Ever since ECM, the prospect of scouting has been neutered. Raven 3-Ls became the advent of the field and since they were highly combat viable with ECM, no one scouted.

PGI's brilliant solution? Enhance Tag range since scouts weren't using them. The LRM users tagged their own targets. Further making scouting useless.

With the upcoming larger maps, scouts may again become useful but at this stage, there is no real benefit to being a scout except in a 4-man premade with slow moving ranged builds (they need someone to help them set up shop) or in full 8-man groups.

Lights used as scouts in a full 8-man mission. (With me as a missile boat.)


What scouts are used for now.


What I use a real Raven (the 4x) for..

[Ashnod]

scouting is more of a 8v8 competitive play role, in pugs you should just play the harasser / light killer

[Kiiyor]

ElLocoMarko, on 15 February 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

When I ask to scout I mostly just want to know where the bulk of the enemy are.

Perfect advice. Spam the R key when you encounter the bulk of the enemy force, then get out and play the rest by ear. If you are counter-scouted with other scouts, head back to your own force. No point in taking on the whole enemy team, you'll just explode and look feeble to everyone else.

Once the battle is joined in earnest, scouts make excellent harassers. Nuisance cap, hunt LRM boats (or PPC boats as they become more prevalent), and play like a soccer hooligan and kick as many people in the back as possible.

[Edustaja]

In pug games:

1.
a. distract enemy forces by either running in before main fight or starting the capture, be vary of enemy lights so it's best to go for cap for a second and then bug out
b. protect the main force with ecm if there is little or none
2. survive to the end game and kill the mechs that are pulling from the main fight

3L is a easy mech to pilot; but you need to know where you can run to when things get hairy. Never run in straight line and get from cover to cover. Never stop but slow down slightly to out maneuver your opponent. Do not skyline yourself on the ridges. Kill spiders and commandos with impunity. Fear the 6xsrm6 catapult or a master jenner pilot.