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Streaks: How They Just Don't Fit In With Skill Based Combat


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#1 Telemetry

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 11:16 AM

It is very hard to go into a match and not use ECM and streaks because they are almost required these days, specially for light vs light combat.

There seems to be something wrong with a game that is twitch based having a weapon that does not take skill. None. You just wait for the reticle to lock, then hold down the trigger in combat. No matter how good a pilot you are fighting, he can't escape. Even other light mechs. If they don't have streaks also, they are done. Eventually your weapon that always hits will defeat their weapons which are affected by pilot skill and lag.

Why don't we just accept that there is a serious problem and remove the Streak from the game. OR lower the dmg to 1pt per missile or less. Just try it for a few weeks and see how the game balance goes. I bet we might all be surprised how refreshing it is to have skill mean something and actually affect the outcome of a battle.

I will admit, being primarily a light pilot I love streaks. They allow me to take out anyone if given enough time. I don't fear an Atlas or Stalker. Something is wrong with that, haha.

As for ECM, it's got it's own problems and of course much has been posted about it already. When combined with mechs that can load up on streaks, it exacerbates the problem (i.e. the beloved Raven 3L).

I would love to see the next patch disable streaks. Just for one patch cycle. And see what happens to the game. I bet the game becomes more diverse in mech and loadout selection. I bet battles come down to more skill rather than who has the most auto-hit weapons.

Just food for thought.<p class="ipsLikeBar right clearfix" id="rep_post_1893416">


#2 blinkin

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 11:25 AM

i agree with your reasoning, but i definitely do not like the solution. removing streaks or nerfing them into oblivion does not fix the problem you are instead hiding from it.

there are several streak modifications suggested on the forums that make streaks require much more skill. we should try adopting them.

we should at least make an attempt to fix streaks before we resort to destroying them or removing them from the game.

#3 Corvus Antaka

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 11:28 AM

I "still" think the possibly best and easiest solution to fixing streaks is to force the pilot to obtain a lock after firing every single time.

this maintains ssrms as lethal inclose hyper accurate missiles, but with a drawback that forces more pilot skill and tracking. with the new advanced tracking modules this would really help even ssrms out.

#4 Ter Ushaka

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 11:30 AM

http://mwomercs.com/...ey-are-balanced

It's like I'm hearing echos of the same bad idea..

#5 dscruffy1

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 11:30 AM

I like how you just copy/pasted your entire topic into a different forum so I'm just going to copy/paste my reply into this one.

This is a bad idea and you have bad ideas. Streaks are in because they're tabletop and because they serve a purpose. Streaks are worse than regular SRM4/6 because they do more damage and they're great. if you're bad you get less damage. Streaks are better than SRM4/6 because they're guaranteed hits in case your cheeto hands can't zero in on a light and make it disappear with big boy guns.

Your food for thought is like tofu on a meat lover's pizza.

#6 Wales Grey

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 11:32 AM

Stop spamming this thread, there are now three iterations of it floating around on the forums.

Here's my reply in one of the other threads:

View PostWales Grey, on 14 February 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

This is what happens: light versus light fights take longer. 8-man queue is not affected because it's rare to see anything lighter than a Catapult, and you frequently encounter all-assault teams.

Basically, nothing of note.

What would be better, is to focus on things that would actually improve the game, rather than just satisfy your bruised ego.


So basically, let's focus on getting things into the game and working first, rather than seeking to nurse the bruised egos of players who can't shot robits with dumbfire missiles.

#7 IceSerpent

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 03:09 PM

View PostTelemetry, on 14 February 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

Why don't we just accept that there is a serious problem and remove the Streak from the game. OR lower the dmg to 1pt per missile or less. Just try it for a few weeks and see how the game balance goes. I bet we might all be surprised how refreshing it is to have skill mean something and actually affect the outcome of a battle.


You really didn't have to create multiple threads, all of them basically saying "I am a baddie and can't figure out how to kill a mech that packs SSRMs" - we got that the first time around, honest.

#8 Alois Hammer

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 03:37 PM

View PostTelemetry, on 14 February 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

There seems to be something wrong with a game that is twitch based having a weapon that does not take skill.


Luckily, this isn't a "twitch game" so it's no problem here.

It does give a few people with overinflated opinions of their own skill some frustration...but that's just icing on the cake. :blink:

#9 Stringburka

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 03:48 PM

yeah this isn't a twitch based game, I agree. A few weapons are twitch based but it's quite mixed.

You'll note that the twitch-based weapons have quite a bit higher damage. Like 15 or 20 damage per shot rather than the 5 of SSRMs.

#10 Wales Grey

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 03:57 PM

View PostStringburka, on 14 February 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

yeah this isn't a twitch based game, I agree. A few weapons are twitch based but it's quite mixed.

You'll note that the twitch-based weapons have quite a bit higher damage. Like 15 or 20 damage per shot rather than the 5 of SSRMs.

Autocannons/PPC/etc. aren't twitch weapons. If anything, their RoF is more reminiscent of sniper rifles in other FPS. Learning to aim isn't twitch skill. I'd actually argue that MWO is utterly bereft of anything that resembles traditional 'twitch' gameplay.

#11 focuspark

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 04:05 PM

Oh boy another chance for me to post my solution to ECM, SSRM, and LRM mechanics:

SSRM should emit a 270m beam for 2.0 seconds. If a pilot can keep the beam on a target for 0.5 seconds continuously or 1.0 seconds cumulative during the 2.0 second period, the missile fire and behave like locked on SSRM do today.

LRM are made as fast as SRM, but do not lock on to targets. Instead they only lock on to the position of a target and travel to that position, but do not follow the target if it moves. The missile warning should be removed. This makes LRM better direct fire than indirect fire weapons which require some skill to use.

ECM is changed so that it only does two things: Protect allies within the bubble from indirect fire (aka LRM) and prevents enemies within the bubble from sharing targeting data. ECCM is removed from the game. ECM does not offer a cloak, nor does ECM cause the FFID to fail. Target paper doll data is still available.

Posted Image
Pink circle is the ECM bubble. Gray rectangles are visual obstructions (buildings?). Red dots are the ECM team. Blue dots are the opposing team.

A: ECM mech. With in ECM bubble. Cannot be targeted for indirect fire.
B: Allied mech. With in ECM bubble. Cannot be targeted for indirect fire.
C: Allied mech. Outside ECM bubble. Can be targeted for indirect fire.

D: Enemy mech. With in ECM bubble. Can target A, B. Cannot share targeting data.
E: Enemy mech. Outside ECM bubble. Can target A, B, C. Can share targeting data.
F: Enemy mech. Outside ECM bubble. No LOS. Can share targeting data with E. Can only indirect fire on C.

Edited by focuspark, 14 February 2013 - 04:06 PM.


#12 Elder Thorn

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 04:27 PM

i admit it, i am currently running a 3L with streaks and ECM from time to time.
used to run a Jenner F (was it F? with 6 small lasers?) in the old days, but since ECM is there... i dunno. Before ECM and Streaks suddenly being popular a Raven was not a touch of a problem for me, right now i probably lost all my skill and can't fight without ECM and Streaks my own anymore.

I am absolutly sure, you could dodge those streaks back then, i even engaged streakcats when using a jenner. Now streaks are just 100% hit, whatever you do, except you have some terrain odds for you, but thats not often the case. Maybe they should aim at a target, as long as it is in front of them, if the target manages to dodge out of the missiles "field of view", the missile turns to last known position and trys to relock the target, if it's gone... well, it's gone

#13 Flapdrol

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 04:40 PM

Nice game there half an hour ago elder thorn. Must've been at least 10 lights in there. We had the ecm advantage so it wasn't really a fight.

#14 Marchant Consadine

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 04:48 PM

View PostTelemetry, on 14 February 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

It is very hard to go into a match and not use ECM and streaks because they are almost required these days, specially for light vs light combat.



Umm... no. Explanation below.

View PostTelemetry, on 14 February 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

There seems to be something wrong with a game that is twitch based having a weapon that does not take skill. None. You just wait for the reticle to lock, then hold down the trigger in combat. No matter how good a pilot you are fighting, he can't escape. Even other light mechs. If they don't have streaks also, they are done. Eventually your weapon that always hits will defeat their weapons which are affected by pilot skill and lag.



This isn't a twitch game. Never before have I heard it called that (I don't read these forums that much). With ecm using streaks actually requires a lot of skill to use effectively (except in 1vs1 light match with a streak ecm mech, but really if you're fighting 1vs1 you're not a good pilot). A good pilot will most ccertainly escape streaks after the first salvo, if he's a light mech. If he's heavier he'll just out dps you to death. Lag isn't an issue anymore even when playing in europe with a ~150 ping (as I am). I kill lights nowadays very succesfully even with ballistics.

View PostTelemetry, on 14 February 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:


Why don't we just accept that there is a serious problem and remove the Streak from the game. OR lower the dmg to 1pt per missile or less. Just try it for a few weeks and see how the game balance goes. I bet we might all be surprised how refreshing it is to have skill mean something and actually affect the outcome of a battle.



Skill affects a lot more than streaks. "Skill based" weopons already have a **** load of more dps than streaks and as mentioned above; with the improved netcode nowadays a skilled pilot will kill streak users any day of the week (except when drunk). Streaks are already rare in anything but light ecm mechs (because they're so inferior to srm unless you can disrupt the enemys ecm) so nerfing them as you suggested would effectively remove them. You didn't mention ecm in this paragraph so neither will I.

View PostTelemetry, on 14 February 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:


I will admit, being primarily a light pilot I love streaks. They allow me to take out anyone if given enough time. I don't fear an Atlas or Stalker. Something is wrong with that, haha.



Those atlases and stalkers are doing something wrong. You must be a better pilot than they are (so this is skill based, If you'd suck you would've learned to fear them). A good Atlas pilot will kill you. A good stalker pilot will have friends that kill you. Given enough time is the point here. Against good pilots you don't have that time.

View PostTelemetry, on 14 February 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:


As for ECM, it's got it's own problems and of course much has been posted about it already. When combined with mechs that can load up on streaks, it exacerbates the problem (i.e. the beloved Raven 3L).



ecm is powerfull (meaning op) yes, but let's wait what the ppc ecm-nullifier and variant quirks have to say about this (it's still beta and they have told us ecm won't be as powerfull as it is in the future). Done right these can be enough.

View PostTelemetry, on 14 February 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:


I would love to see the next patch disable streaks. Just for one patch cycle. And see what happens to the game. I bet the game becomes more diverse in mech and loadout selection. I bet battles come down to more skill rather than who has the most auto-hit weapons.



Have you even played the game? I mean really? Most matches I don't see a single streak flying unleess I shoot it or it comes from a light that dies fast when I shoot it with my weapons that do actual damage. Starting to think this post was a troll. As for diverse loadouts, the heat reduction to larger energy weapons did more to that than any patch before it. So effectively you're complaining about diversity right after the patch that did more to that than any in the history of this game.

View PostTelemetry, on 14 February 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

Just food for thought.<p class="ipsLikeBar right clearfix" id="rep_post_1893416">


This is Beta. Yes they take your money if you are willing to pay. After they resolved the performancve problems I have payed. Now that they fixed large energy weopons and netcode I'll pay more. If they manage to fix constant crashes I'll pay more. Just because the more I pay the more resourses they have to develop this game faster. Eventually it will be MOSTLY balanced and stable in every way. Then they will release it.

They can't remove streaks because they're tied to the battletech lore. They're doing the best they can considering they're adapting decades old turn based tabletop game to a realtime simulator. And after the terrible patches that made the game unplayable last fall (killing performance two days after I bought a new GPU to play this game hurt), they have improved and now I can honestly say I think every patch has made the game better. In a year or two I think the game will be ready to be given the label "released". I just hope they don't rush it like they did with open beta (which alienated 4/5 potential players among my personal friends; and I'd imagine at least 1/2 globally).

#15 Marchant Consadine

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 04:55 PM

View PostElder Thorn, on 14 February 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

i admit it, i am currently running a 3L with streaks and ECM from time to time.
used to run a Jenner F (was it F? with 6 small lasers?) in the old days, but since ECM is there... i dunno. Before ECM and Streaks suddenly being popular a Raven was not a touch of a problem for me, right now i probably lost all my skill and can't fight without ECM and Streaks my own anymore.

I am absolutly sure, you could dodge those streaks back then, i even engaged streakcats when using a jenner. Now streaks are just 100% hit, whatever you do, except you have some terrain odds for you, but thats not often the case. Maybe they should aim at a target, as long as it is in front of them, if the target manages to dodge out of the missiles "field of view", the missile turns to last known position and trys to relock the target, if it's gone... well, it's gone


Streaks can be blocked by terrain as you said. Being able to dodge them without terrain was a bug that they fixed (they should hit 100%). You shouldn't be able to engage streakcats with jenner (or any light for that matter). Streakcats are made specifically to kill lights so a light should not engage them. Do I understand correctly that you are pissed because your light mech can't solo every mech on the field anymore?

#16 Wales Grey

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 04:55 PM

View PostMarchant Consadine, on 14 February 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

They can't remove streaks because they're tied to the battletech lore. They're doing the best they can considering they're adapting decades old turn based tabletop game to a realtime simulator.

In my fever dreams, I imagine a Mechwarrior game free of the cruft of Battletech, and I weep upon awakening.

#17 Flapdrol

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 04:59 PM

View PostMarchant Consadine, on 14 February 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:


Streaks can be blocked by terrain as you said. Being able to dodge them without terrain was a bug that they fixed (they should hit 100%). You shouldn't be able to engage streakcats with jenner (or any light for that matter). Streakcats are made specifically to kill lights so a light should not engage them. Do I understand correctly that you are pissed because your light mech can't solo every mech on the field anymore?

Why do streaks have to be an anti-light weapon? just because they excel at it now doesn't mean they should.

and it has nothing to do with solo-ing every mech, and everything with boredom of running the raven 3L, no matter what you put in any other mech (except maybe the 2D) wil be as effective. there's no skill to improve, as locking on to a target is very easy and quick (especially with artemis, bit of an exploit, but who cares)

Edited by Flapdrol, 14 February 2013 - 05:05 PM.


#18 Elder Thorn

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 05:01 PM

View PostMarchant Consadine, on 14 February 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:


Streaks can be blocked by terrain as you said. Being able to dodge them without terrain was a bug that they fixed (they should hit 100%). You shouldn't be able to engage streakcats with jenner (or any light for that matter). Streakcats are made specifically to kill lights so a light should not engage them. Do I understand correctly that you are pissed because your light mech can't solo every mech on the field anymore?


nope, you do not understand correctly. I AM pissed though, that the jenner is worthless now - well it's slowly coming back, the better the netcode gets, the better the jenner becomes.
However - the streakcat is made to kill lights and should not be engaged by lights? Tell that to a streakcat pilot - if you ever find one again - when he got soloed by a Raven 3L... (which will probably use Streaks, but cannot be shot by streaks)

Yes, streaks are meant to hit 100%, but not in the way it is implemented, they just wouldn't shoot and consume ammo if they would not hit, that's the difference.

I am not saying, the jenner needs to be able to defeat everyhting. In fact, in 9/10 matches i pilot an assault, always did and probably always will do.
The way it is right now, streaks are very strong weapons, esspecially when it comes to light mech vs. light mech. Combined with ECM against a Non-ECM light they are easy mode for the ECM Mech - and that's not only the case with light vs. light.
Streakcats were still dangerous, even if you could dodge streaks, but you wouldn't automatically win using a light, nor would the streakcat would have automatically won. Both players would have needed to put all their skill into that fight and in the end it felt like a good fight, no matter if you won or lost.
Now it's just a question of "he does have this setup? nope, can't engage... oh, we are both the last one of our team? to bad, i will just run off and let him cap, i can't take him - oh wait? which ******** from my team told him where i am?"

bha, i think my english is terrible right now... should go to sleep :blink:

Edited by Elder Thorn, 14 February 2013 - 05:06 PM.


#19 Marchant Consadine

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 05:59 PM

View PostFlapdrol, on 14 February 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

Why do streaks have to be an anti-light weapon? just because they excel at it now doesn't mean they should.

and it has nothing to do with solo-ing every mech, and everything with boredom of running the raven 3L, no matter what you put in any other mech (except maybe the 2D) wil be as effective. there's no skill to improve, as locking on to a target is very easy and quick (especially with artemis, bit of an exploit, but who cares)


You're saying a raven 3L outperforms every other mech in the game with even a nood pilot against a good pilot (since skill doesn't matter). Really? I must have misunderstood, please clarify.

(edited out exaggeration)

Edit2: Any weapon that exells against a certain type of opponent and is less usefull against others is IMO great for diversity and is as it should be. Streaks are anti-light weapon just as pulse lasers are. large ballistics are anti heavy-assault weapon. This is how it is and should be IMO.

Edited by Marchant Consadine, 14 February 2013 - 06:03 PM.


#20 Marchant Consadine

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 06:11 PM

View PostElder Thorn, on 14 February 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:


nope, you do not understand correctly. I AM pissed though, that the jenner is worthless now - well it's slowly coming back, the better the netcode gets, the better the jenner becomes.
However - the streakcat is made to kill lights and should not be engaged by lights? Tell that to a streakcat pilot - if you ever find one again - when he got soloed by a Raven 3L... (which will probably use Streaks, but cannot be shot by streaks)

Yes, streaks are meant to hit 100%, but not in the way it is implemented, they just wouldn't shoot and consume ammo if they would not hit, that's the difference.

I am not saying, the jenner needs to be able to defeat everyhting. In fact, in 9/10 matches i pilot an assault, always did and probably always will do.
The way it is right now, streaks are very strong weapons, esspecially when it comes to light mech vs. light mech. Combined with ECM against a Non-ECM light they are easy mode for the ECM Mech - and that's not only the case with light vs. light.
Streakcats were still dangerous, even if you could dodge streaks, but you wouldn't automatically win using a light, nor would the streakcat would have automatically won. Both players would have needed to put all their skill into that fight and in the end it felt like a good fight, no matter if you won or lost.
Now it's just a question of "he does have this setup? nope, can't engage... oh, we are both the last one of our team? to bad, i will just run off and let him cap, i can't take him - oh wait? which ******** from my team told him where i am?"

bha, i think my english is terrible right now... should go to sleep :blink:


Too tired to multiquote... 4 am so I should be sleeping as well. Still seems to me the problem you have is with ecm. Nothing to do with Streaks. I admit streaks have a great synergy bonus when wielded by ecm lights, but still they're not all powerfull. 5 seconds is a long time (plenty to give the other light a lock and at least two shots + LRMs from friends 300 meters away) and I know that I can hit those lights with half (or third.. or less when drunk) of my ppc shots so let's just wait 'till 19th before we close our accounts :)





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