20 replies to this topic

[Ophidian]

We know that an Ultra autocannon has double the fire rate of their normal counterparts in TT.

If we hold that true, an UAC-2 will fire a shot every .25 seconds. Meaning it will fire 4 shots every second. Now, at two damage for 8 damage per second, it still doesn't sound like much. But wait!
A Clan UAC-2 weighs 5 tons (IS versions weigh 7), meaning for every Gauss Rifle you would normally carry, you can have 3 CUAC2s. So 8x3=24 damage per second.

So that means that if a Gauss Rifle takes 4 seconds to reload, in that time, 3 CUAC2s will have done 24x4=96 damage total. That sounds like a problem, because remember, a Gauss Rifle does 15 damage.

But wait!

Look at the Kraken!
http://www.sarna.net...ne_%28Kraken%29
it has 10 CUAC2s! That 80 damage per second!
That means in 4 seconds, this one mech will do 320 damage! Ok, that's 50 tons worth of guns, but the equivalent in Gauss will be 4 GRs (3.3 actually, but let's be charitable) which will have dealt a paultry 60. At longer range than a normal AC2, the Kraken has the ability to absolutely shred anything it sees in practically no time at all.

But we'll never have the Kraken, you say? Even with only 4 CUAC5s on, say, the Cataphract 4X. It'll do 128 damage every 4 seconds, still more than double than 4 GRs for the amount of weight of 1 GR and one Large Laser, and considerably less space (most likely 1 slot each).

So in conclusion, Ultras had better have a really high jam rate or we must never allow mechs with more than 4 ballistic slots.

Thoughts?

Edited by Ophidian, 15 February 2013 - 11:41 AM.

[Gregore]

Ultra's already do have a really high jam rate.

Also keep in mind the ammo you would need. At the rate above you would need 2 tons for every second you fire.

Sorry that is for normal AC2 ammo, UAC2 would have less per ton, so 2.5 tns per second.

[Khaze]

Oh but what glorious seconds those would be.

[Ophidian]

I don't have the tables in front of me so I can't be sure. but let's be conservative and say that there are 40 shots per ton, though its more likely to be around 80. That's still 10 seconds of fire, excluding jam times, well enough to core an Atlas with no trouble.

and remember the light weight of the weapons themselves. I remember my 4x can carry 2 GRs, 2 MLs, and an Ssrm2. That's more than 33 tons of weight and space. Taking into account the 20 tons needed for 4 CUAC2s, that still leaves 12 tons of weight that can be used for ammo at 480 rounds.

That's 30 seconds of sustained, though unlikely, fire. More than enough.

[Ophidian]

Just so we're clear, assuming you hit with every shot, that's 960 damage total.

[Gregore]

I actually read it wrong up there, he said 320 dmg every 4 seconds.
So every 4 seconds you would need 2.5 tons of ammo.

You are talking about 4 CUAC2's, he mentioned 10.

4 CUAC2 would only need 16 shots per second, doing 32 dps, not the 80 stated above.
So 1 tn of ammo for 4 would last 4 seconds. so 12 tons would almost get you a minute worth of shooting time.
Better hope you make each shot count.

[RagingOyster]

Assuming every single shot hits and there are no jams, then you are correct. That is not how it works in practice, though. You have to account for misses, jams and the high heat they will generate. UAC/2s will necessitate 1-2 heat sinks to keep you running cool.

On-paper statistics tend to be very misleading so I usually take them with a grain of salt. Regardless CUAC/2s will have nasty potential DPS and I dread the day we see them boated. We will just have to see if/how PGI implements them.

[Gregore]

True, but the reduced cool down time helps a lot compared to it's non ulta counterpart.

Take the UAC5 for instance. With the Ilya having three of these chain fire you really ruin people's day. I can go toe to toe with and atlas as I am doing about 15 dps (the recycle is 1.1 sec less the fast fire bonus which times it nicely with chain fire). so in 6 seconds the fully armored CT of the atlas is gone, and in a couple more seconds so is his internals.
Add to that the 3 MPL's peppering it. Makes for a fearsome mech.

Tonight I work on a standard engine version.

[Stingz]

AC/2 is 1 heat/shot, good luck trying to keep firing.

[ElLocoMarko]

Khaze, on 15 February 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

Oh but what glorious seconds those would be.

And... I'm SPENT!

[Solomon Ward]

Rotary Autocannons have six times the speed of normal Autocannons

That is Dakka.

Early 60`s sadly Way to go.

[MustrumRidcully]

One thing to keep in mind for the Gauss Rifle:
At 0 Seconds, it deals 15 damage. No need to wait for 4 seconds to shoot.
At 4 seconds, it deals another 15 damage. That's a total of 30 of 4 seconds. I know, this isn't how DPS works, but I think it's important to keep in mind we're in real engagements that start when you start shooting.
After 4 seconds, a Ultra AC/2 will have fired (4 * 4) +1 times, for a total of 17 * 2= 34 damage.
Unfortunately, it will have also consumed 17 shots and produced 17 heat, while the Gauss is still at 3 heat.
With 6 UAC/2, you'd produce 102 heat. Let's say you have 20 Double Heat Sinks (10 Engine, 10 Poordubs), so your heat capacity is 64, and in 4 seconds you would have only dissipated 13.6 heat, so your mech would overheat way before you even got to the 4 second mark.


But even all that is theoretical, because the Ultra AC/5 in MW:O does not fire exactly twice as fast as the AC/5. All I know is that with the current way PGI is handling these things,it will be ridiculous, but not necessarily ridiculously good.

[Ryebear]

Also, who are you warning? The developers just in case they dont do internal testing? Us the forum viewers to get us worked up?

I usually skip posting unnecessary responses, but your post seems geared toward ******* off the community over something that doesnt exist.

[Stingz]

UAC/20 is what people really need to look out for, 40 damage in 2 shots rapid. High skill / lucky players will be head-capping very often. (Firepower of the AC/20 cat in one weapon.)

Edited by Stingz, 17 February 2013 - 03:53 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

Ophidian, on 15 February 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

We know that an Ultra autocannon has double the fire rate of their normal counterparts in TT.

If we hold that true, an UAC-2 will fire a shot every .25 seconds. Meaning it will fire 4 shots every second. Now, at two damage for 8 damage per second, it still doesn't sound like much. But wait!
A Clan UAC-2 weighs 5 tons (IS versions weigh 7), meaning for every Gauss Rifle you would normally carry, you can have 3 CUAC2s. So 8x3=24 damage per second.

So that means that if a Gauss Rifle takes 4 seconds to reload, in that time, 3 CUAC2s will have done 24x4=96 damage total. That sounds like a problem, because remember, a Gauss Rifle does 15 damage.

But wait!

Look at the Kraken!
http://www.sarna.net...ne_%28Kraken%29
it has 10 CUAC2s! That 80 damage per second!
That means in 4 seconds, this one mech will do 320 damage! Ok, that's 50 tons worth of guns, but the equivalent in Gauss will be 4 GRs (3.3 actually, but let's be charitable) which will have dealt a paultry 60. At longer range than a normal AC2, the Kraken has the ability to absolutely shred anything it sees in practically no time at all.

But we'll never have the Kraken, you say? Even with only 4 CUAC5s on, say, the Cataphract 4X. It'll do 128 damage every 4 seconds, still more than double than 4 GRs for the amount of weight of 1 GR and one Large Laser, and considerably less space (most likely 1 slot each).

So in conclusion, Ultras had better have a really high jam rate or we must never allow mechs with more than 4 ballistic slots.

Thoughts?

If you think the UAC/2 will be bad, just wait until the RAC/2 with its 6X ROF comes out (in 3062)...

[Skadi]

Keep mah bane out of this!
its the only hope i have for a ballistic boat

[Jyi]

Also, you seem to be forgetting AC2's recycle was nerfed up to 0,7 seconds or so..

[WaddeHaddeDudeda]

Ophidian, on 15 February 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

Thoughts?

While those numbers are quite impressive they also display the worst case scenario (10 UAC 2's - WTF?) AND don't take into account that you actually have to expose yourself a LOT in order to gain any advantages of the fast reload time.
The UAC 2 will lose any classical stand off/stationary battle to the Gauss Rifle - unless the UAC carrier is bumrushing everything.

If this happens he still has to aim at (and HIT!) a specific location very often in order to take it out (otr just spreading the damage while effectively doing no much harm to his target).
While being occupied by aiming at a specific location the pilot of the UAC 2 mech will also not be able to roll damage by himself very effectively.

So after all I personally wouldn't be worried to much!

[Zrave]

The current recycle of the AC/2 is 0.85s

Also your analysis completely ignores jamming, which would be proportionally much more devastating to the UAC/2 because of how many shots you could have fired during the jam period. Assuming the same jam duration as the UAC/5, of course.

I ran some simulations using some reasonable assumptions, and the average DPS of the UAC/2 is 2.4 on autofire, 3.6 using perfectly timed single shots. If the jam duration is shorter, say, half as long as the UAC/5, then the average dps for autofire would increase to 3.8.

For comparison:

AC/2 has a dps of 2.35
AC/5 has a dps of 2.94
UAC/5 has an average dps of 4.8 on autofire, and 4.55 on perfectly timed auto-shots

Edited by Zrave, 17 February 2013 - 07:31 PM.

[Dirus Nigh]

RAC2 would be nasty. Just think of the HAG.